Author Topic: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion  (Read 3521 times)

ZeaLitY

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Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« on: February 17, 2006, 12:00:02 am »
Discuss the article here if you have comments or suggestions.

mrnerdhair

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2008, 12:01:54 pm »
Ok, a lot of this article is tenuous and self-contradictory, but it's at least two orders of magnitude less tenuous and self-contradictory than the Chrono series is itself, and for that I applaud you... I certainly couldn't have done as well myself.

I do, however, have a question... it appears from GreyLensman's diagram (the bottom of the page) that Lavos was defeated in 1999 A.D. in Chrono Trigger, and that the Time Crash erases this event. I'm pretty sure that's not right... not only does it mean that Lavos is still around in Another World as well as Home World, but IIRC, Lavos was canonically defeated in 12,000 B.C., and the reason the Day of Lavos still occurred in Home World was rather unspecified in Chrono Cross.

Furthermore, I think that the Time Error section of the article is the most complete and canonically-sound portion, and I'd think that it has a lot of potential for explaining away more than it's been used for here.

** Begin new theory I've cooked up, please, if I shouldn't be posting this part here, I apologize **

For example, if you assume that travelling in time takes a small, but non-zero, amount of time-error (substantiated, for example, by the gate warping animations in CT), then considering a 5-D universe (3 spatial dimensions, 1 time, 1 time-error), then there is no need to consider the DBT as anything more than a figurative device. If Chrono departs coordinates <x, y, z, 1000 A.D., 0> (where <x, y, z> is the telepod gate's position, for example) and arrives at <x, y, z, 600, 0 + delta> (where delta is greater than 0), any changes he makes can only affect the first four coordinates, as time-travel or a trip to/from the end of time is required to alter the fifth coordinate. Thus, any changes made by Chrono in 600 A.D. have no effect on the world he departed from, whose time-error coordinate is fixed at 0. When he travels back to 1000 A.D., the fact we are considering time-error as a time dimension (meaning it "flows" continuously and causality applies) means that his changes will be maintained in the world he arrives in. Thus, the "DBT" refers to any timelines that are unable to be experienced relative to the speaker, because the speaker cannot flow backwards in time-error to return to them. More specifically, as time never flows backwards in the Chrono series, and there are no observable instances of time-error-travel, the DBT is the set of all points "beyond the flow of time" in the sense that from the observer's perspective, time and time-error cannot flow to them. (This is similar to referring to everything outside an observer's light cone as being "darkness beyond the universe", if you will. For a more easily understandable 4-D example, consider our own universe, assuming no time-travel: The past can be considered the DBT. After all, what happens someone after they get killed? They are relegated to the past, which can be considered a dumping ground for all that has been "overwritten" throughout history. The entire point here is that the DBT exists, but it can be spoken of in significantly more precise terms than the rather ambiguous moniker of "Darkness Beyond Time.")

This nicely answers the question of whether there is a separate DBT for each dimension or one for all of them: "yes." There is certainly a sense in which the DBT is universe-specific, but the term DBT can be easily applied to the DBT of other universes as well, since they can no more be reached (from the observer's perspective) by the flow of time and time-error than the DBT of the observer's own universe can. In fact, there is a sense in which everything in every other universe is part of the DBT (Dinopolis, for example, included), but this is a problematic use of the notation since it has been seen that Serge travels between dimensions, and so did Dinopolis. The "best" definition of the term DBT, then, is the set of all points for which the time-error coordinate is less than the observer's time-error coordinate. (Of course, this assumes that time-error transcends universes, but given that it's possible to travel between them, this is not too much of a logical leap. Say Serge jumps from Home World to Another world, gates to the End of Time, stays for an hour, and then gates directly back to Home World: he should arrive an hour after he left.)

This also has the interesting an poetic implication that the only people who see time-travel as actually changing things are the people who travel in time, as the rest of the folks don't change their time-error coordinate, and time plays out for them without the changes time-travelers create at a different time-error coordinate.

As a digression, what, then of the DBT Serge visits? Not a problem: Lavos exists in a pocket universe, which was disconnected from all other timelines after he was defeated. There is some evidence that Lavos does not experience time as we know it, but rather time-error flow. Therefore, after Lavos is defeated, he cannot be considered to have "died" in the traditional sense, as he does not experience the flow of time, but rather his influence is merely ended by disconnecting him from the rest of reality. This explains him being alive and well to transform into the Time-Devourer, and explains where Serge goes to fight it: Lavos' disconnected pocket-dimension, which is considered in the "DBT" because it is un-experienceable, being outside of the Keystone dimension. (Obviously, this is not ordinarily possible, but Serge uses a Time Egg, the entire point of which is to do new and cool stuff that isn't otherwise possible. Perhaps this Time Egg, being a device utilizing a miniature black-hole, opens a wormhole between Lavos's pocket dimension and that pink thing on Opassa Beach. This also neatly explains why a Time Egg is required.)

This also has the convenient effect of explaining what Chronopolis is trying to do with its Counter-Time experiment. Clearly, Chronopolis is of little use as a temporal research facility unless it can somewhat isolate itself from changes in the timeline and travel in time-error, gaining an End-Of-Time-like viewpoint of multiple timelines. However, it is also clear that whatever control Chronopolis does have of time-error is incomplete, given its program of minimizing the effects El Nido has on the timeline. (Non-canon, obviously, but IIRC, the Chronopolis in the Crimson Echoes beta speaks of observing changes in the timeline and the "temporal dampeners" holding, which are easily considered to produce a sort of temporal-inertia effect by slowing the facility's relativistic progression through time-error, thus keeping it isolated, albeit temporarily, from the changes that have been made to the timeline at some minuscule future time-error.)

Given that the scientists of Chronopolis would clearly know of time-error, even having a modicum of control over it, and that they seem to have full control over the OTHER four dimensions, the only thing left for the Counter-Time experiment to gain control of is the flow of Time-Error. Perhaps this could be in the form of a "time error travel" akin to "regular" time travel, but given the name, it is more probably an experiment in reversing the flow of time-error at the facility (countering the flow of time), allowing it to "recover" worlds from the DBT by traveling backwards in time-error until the facility's time-error coordinate is in sync with them.

ALSO nicely explained, then, is the reason for the Time Crash (not what happened, but why the experiment didn't work): in the Chrono series, time has NEVER been shown to flow backwards, and there is thus little support for a theory that time-error can do so. In fact, if ANY form of time-error-travel exists, it would require the existence of a sixth dimension of "time-error-error" to account for the perspective changes the time-error traveller experiences. (Besides, a central theme in the Chrono series is that despite the insanely complex degrees of control you may have over history, and the ability to change earth-shattering events, time-travelers are not all powerful, and a certain degree of predestination exists: for example the Entity's opening of time gates, presumably in a complex plan to ensure that Chrono defeats Lavos. Unlike the scientists at Chronopolis believe, the universe is not a dynamic and immaterial thing that is stabilized only by the viewpoint of the observer: there must be some constancy in the universe to account for the general similarity between people's viewpoints. If time is not immutable, time-error is: Chrono and the rest of his squad, for example, experienced events in a very different manner than Gaspar or Doan, but indisputably had similarities in their viewpoints "Oh, look, that kid defeated Lavos, cool" that indicate that their viewpoints are more tightly bound together than the Chronopolis scientists seem to realize.)

Obviously this theory needs a bit of patching up to cover the standard set of paradoxes, but by applying Relativistic Flow, Time Bastard (though where they go is somewhat more complex, and I'd rewrite it so that the point of disappearance is fixed relative to the timeline and does not depend on the object's age: i.e., the Red Vest doesn't disappear after 400 years if you got the Red Plate), Time Traveler's Immunity, and the like, I can't think of anything this doesn't cover.


Please, let me know what you think.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2008, 07:59:09 pm »
First off, let me begin by saying "Welcome to the Compendium!"

But let us get to business.

That was a lot to read, and I loved it.  I know some people were talking about going through and revamping the Compendium theories, encyclopedia entries, etc., and after having read your post I'm excited.  It makes sense and actually explains some of the more enigmatic elements of Chronopolis and the Counter-Time Experiment.

I really hope you stay around and help us with our Chrono needs!

BROJ

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2008, 08:31:04 pm »
Couldn't have said it better myself, truly intriguing theory.  Welcome!  :)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 08:34:08 pm by BROJ »

FaustWolf

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2008, 03:31:28 pm »
Oh man, awesome stuff. Welcome indeed!

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2008, 04:06:38 pm »
Too bad this guy never comes around...

Ragnatz

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2009, 02:18:39 pm »
First off, sorry for reviving a long-dead topic.

After finally getting to see how Chrono Cross ends, I've had the chance to look into the theories that surround the Chrono series and through various links, found myself on this mammoth of an article.  After taking a few nights to read it (it's very wordy), I came to my own theory that solves 2 of the Paradoxes using systems that are already realized.  I've also come across a single question that is starting to boggle my mind.  The question is:

If the Time Crash causes someone in the Sea of Eden area to move 14400 years into the future to Chronopolis/The ruined future, how is it that when you enter Chronopolis you are experiencing the prelude to the Time Crash (people are talking about getting ready to start the experiment)?  Are the "gates" in the two dimensions connected to two different future dates?  Or is the Chronopolis of Another World only a simulation of what happened 13020 years earlier?  Are they holograms of the people but real security systems?  I just feel lost by this.  Any help on the matter would be appreciated.

As for the theories, I feel that the Guardia Line Paradox and the Telepod Paradoxes can both be explained using Time Error and the Schrodinger's Cat problem.

To quote WhatIs.com (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html):
Here's Schrödinger's (theoretical) experiment: We place a living cat into a steel chamber, along with a device containing a vial of hydrocyanic acid. There is, in the chamber, a very small amount of a radioactive substance. If even a single atom of the substance decays during the test period, a relay mechanism will trip a hammer, which will, in turn, break the vial and kill the cat.

The observer cannot know whether or not an atom of the substance has decayed, and consequently, cannot know whether the vial has been broken, the hydrocyanic acid released, and the cat killed. Since we cannot know, the cat is both dead and alive according to quantum law, in a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and learn the condition of the cat that the superposition is lost, and the cat becomes one or the other (dead or alive). This situation is sometimes called quantum indeterminacy or the observer's paradox : the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that the outcome as such does not exist unless the measurement is made. (That is, there is no single outcome unless it is observed.)
----

Both of the two paradoxes can be defined in terms of this experiment.  For the Guardia Ancestor Line, when Ayla time travels, she is now in a state where she is both alive and dead to 65,000,000,000 BC.  That is to say, she has a possibility of returning, or a possibility of not returning.  But as has been mentioned in the article, a possibility is not enough to affect the timelines.  As such, until a point of certainty can be reached, both cases are possibilities so time takes the path of least resistance, the status quo.

The same can be said for Leene and the Telepods.  When Marle is found in 600AD, there is a possibility that Leene will still be saved (for example, by Frog), or that she will be lost forever.  So until a certainty can be assured, the timeline remains unchanged.

Now, lets extend the Schrodinger's Cat analogy further.  Given enough time, the cat will run out of air, food, and/or water and can be guaranteed to be dead.  And that is where Time Error comes in.  If while time traveling, Time Error always moves forward, then at some point or another, an event cannot be fixed given the finite gates that exist and the people involved.

So, in Ayla's case, until Ayla dies (permanently) on her adventures, reaches menopause, or is assumed dead by Kino (who then finds a new gal), she still be considered "alive" by Schrodinger's Cat's standards.  However, if any of those occur, they would be irreversible and the timeline would be forced to change.  In terms of possibilities, even though the possibility of being "lost in time" exists, until it happens, it hasn't happened.

The same is true for Leene.  Until the point in Time Error where there is no way for Leene to be saved, Chrono and Lucca have the ability to go back and help.  If, say, Yakra would have killed her in a week after Marle's being found, then a week later (since it was assumed that the Timelines move at approximately the same pace), the timeline would change and Marle would have been stranded without anyone even knowing she ever existed.

As such, the solution isn't that the possibilities of "everything turns out okay" exist, but that the outcomes of "everything goes to hell" are still only possibilities on the line of Time Error.

************************************************************

Beyond that, I think I agree with many of the concepts given by mrnerdhair, though I think I would make one change.  I would extend that the Darkness Between Time isn't just the dimensions that are inaccessible, but it is the space BETWEEN the dimensions that MAKES them inaccessible.  The DBT is what prevents 5th dimensional travel (or travel between dimensions - I'd probably put Time Error as a 6th dimension or maybe even a 7th).  This means that a timeline that is consumed by the DBT still exists, but cannot be accessed through normal means.  However, an incident like a Time Crash can muck that up.  Here's a visual image:

You have bunch of pieces of cooked spaghetti that are taped together at one end are laid out on a tray so that each noodle extends out straight in a different direction (so none touch except at the initial taped location and they spread out equally).  The space between the noodles is the DBT and the taped location is the point in history that all the noodles have in common.  Now take the tray and shake it.  What happens?  The noodles shift position and become wavy instead of straight.  Suddenly some noodles become close to other noodles in some places but not others.  Heck, some noodles may even curve around and overlap itself.  This is, in my opinion, the Time Crash.

What this would mean is that each alternate dimension stays intact, but until the time crash happened in 2400, they were inaccessible to each other.  However, when the Time Crash happens, the timelines for the Reptite timeline, the Lavos Timeline, and the Keystone T-1 timeline get close to each other.  This allows Lavos to tear a hole to Chronopolis and this allows the Planet Entity to tear a hole to Dinopolis  This also allows the Home and Another Dimensions to become close enough to each other that Serge can get through (We can assume that the original Another World time line that would eventually be changed by Kid's traveling back to save Serge still would have lead to a Time Crash which would be able to affect the split between the two dimensions).   This can still account for the distortions that occur away from Opassa Beach.  However, perhaps the DBT is not as this at those other locations (maybe the two dimensions actually touch at the beach) to allow crossing over.  All we know is that they are close enough that the DBT cannot fully isolate them anymore.

This also means that, like mrnerdhair stated, this would mean that each dimension would have their own version of the DBT (since each would view everywhere but their own perceivable dimension(s) as DBT), but in the end the Time Devourer would exist in the self-same void between all dimensions and thus there could only be one Time Devourer (since an area devoid of all 5 dimensions would have to exist on a 6th+ dimension (which, again, is why I consider Time Error to be higher than 5th).

I'm not sure if this makes complete sense as written, but I think it fits with the established theories comfortably enough while explaining how somewhere like Chronopolis can be aware of multiple dimensions and how dimensions that should have been consumed can still contribute to the story.

Though, I suppose if there is a glaring impossibility that I'm just not seeing, I hope someone can show me the light.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around some things.

Thanks for your time and sorry again for bringing back the dead.

FaustWolf

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2009, 03:06:12 pm »
Why, the Compendium loves thread necromancy! Especially by new members with lots of thoughtful things to say! Welcome, Ragnatz.

This is actually the first time I've ever seen Schrodinger's Cat applied to Chrono, so...awesome. I'm not fit to comment quite yet, but I think it's cool how Time Error has been used as a possible explanatory factor in this case.

Ragnatz

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2009, 03:16:34 pm »
Thank you for the words of welcome.

To be honest, when I was writing up the Schrodinger's Cat theories, I did a bit of research to try and find wording that would be useful in describing it for the uninitiated (which is probably a very minimal population of this board if everyone is discussing time travel and quantum physics) and found a diagram on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MWI_Schrodingers_cat.png) that, in my opinion, looked like the Home World and Alternate World split in a nutshell.  Suddenly all I could wonder was if this was the reason Square decided to put SO MANY CATS into the game.  Made me chuckle a bit ('cause I like puns, a lot).  I'm not sure I'll be able to look at Lynx the same way ever again...

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2009, 05:42:17 pm »
About Chronopolis, yeah, it is strange. However, it can't be a simulation or something similar due to the events of 14 years ago with Wazuki, Serge, and Miguel; and the in-game events with Lynx, FATE, the Dragons, etc.

Chronopolis is real.

As for the ghosts. Well, do some act as if the experiment haven't happened yet. However, there are some that do, and in fact, are aware that all those thousands years have come and gone. As much as I have thought about it, I don't have an idea if that was done on purpose of was unintentional that made some them like that. As these 'ghosts' can't truly be that (ghosts) due to that.

Ragnatz

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2009, 04:41:28 pm »
Well, considering that we do not see anyone during the flashback of 14 years ago, it seems awfully possible that the people are all holograms and they were disabled when Wazuki, Serge, and Miguel showed up.  If that were the case, the holograms could be letting Serge + Party see what happened 13020 years ago, I suppose.  But again, I just don't know...

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2009, 04:46:46 pm »
Yet, they couldn't be holograms for the reason they are aware of what is happening around them. Even the ones still thinking they are still in 2,400 AD, since they won't let you pass to the room of the experiment.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 04:48:28 pm by Acacia Sgt »

Ragnatz

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2009, 01:13:06 am »
True.  If they were holograms, they couldn't be looking at the differences between the two dimension in real time, I suppose.

One other question.  Currently, the theory of the Sea of Eden being a gate forward in time instead of Chronopolis being brought back in time is based heavily on the Conservation of Time theory saying that no more than 3 people can pass through a gate.  However, based on the wording in the Retranslation article:

OLD MAN: When 4 or more beings step            
   into a time warp, the Conservation            
   of Time theorem states that they            
   will turn up...            
            
   ...at the space-time coordinates of            
   least resistance.            
   Here.            
            
   Disturbances in the space-time            
   continuum have increased recently.            
   Far too many folks are just popping            
   in here...            
            
   I fear something is having a            
   powerful effect on the very fabric            
   of time...

VERSUS

Old Man: When you enter a space-time distortion            
   with four or more people who live in different            
   times, the dimensional field distorts......            
            
   However, there are many space-time            
   distortions in this place.            
   There are even those who, like you, appear            
   here aimlessly......            
            
   Perhaps something is exerting an effect on all            
   of time......

As such, all the members of Chronopolis would have lived in the same time, and thus COULD have been brought back in time together (the same applies to Dinopolis, though that requires a Dimension shift as well).  Does this mean that this should be removed as an inconsistancy/abnormality?

Zaulche

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 02:10:05 pm »
That newer translation, if it is correct, does not make sense then, at least not in a way to support your theory. If any number of people from the same period can time travel without being taken to the End of Time, then it should not have happened to Chrono and company because at the time Chrono, Marle, and Lucca are all from the same time period. Only Robo is from a different time period (Frog and Ayla are not with you at that point in time).

In order for that translation to work in game would be if it meant that if you have more than three people and at least one of them is from a different dimension then you end up in the End of Time. Still, it is a stretch, I think the original translation fits the game better.

Ragnatz

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Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 03:37:04 pm »
Wow.... notifications of threads from the past....  :lol:

Well I don't see how the alternate translation breaks down.  By the translation, the instant that Robo jumped through time with the other three, Conservation of Time happened.  4 is the key number here.  Once you have a fourth person, then the time footprint of each matters.  If the fourth party member of Chrono Trigger was Pierre, for example, since he was from the same period as Chrono, Marle, and Lucca, there would have been no problem.  It seems Square was very careful to make sure that they never had 4 people from the same time period on the team.

Of course this means that if someone traveled to Chronopolis and time traveled back with the city, then there is a possibility that everyone would have ended up in the End of Time.  But since there is no evidence of such an occurrence, then we can ignore that case.