Author Topic: Masamune, Einlanzer, & Hero's Medal  (Read 2780 times)

Drumguy074

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Masamune, Einlanzer, & Hero's Medal
« on: December 08, 2003, 11:54:04 pm »
I remember reading somewhere (i thought it was in CC, but i could be wrong) that the sword had to have been possessed by a being of immense evil to have changed to the evil sword present in CC.

knuck

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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2003, 10:51:23 am »
Quote from: Drumguy074
I remember reading somewhere (i thought it was in CC, but i could be wrong) that the sword had to have been possessed by a being of immense evil to have changed to the evil sword present in CC.
This is showed in the PSX CT version.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2003, 06:06:50 pm »
Let us examine the evidence.

Quote from: Radius
Radius: The Masamune... That sword is cursed with hate and sorrow... Anyone who lays his
hands on it will be overcome with negative sentiments and will be driven mad...


Quote from: Radius
Radius: Now I know... Dario was possessed by the enmity of the Masamune, too.


The evil is certainly innate, but I couldn't find anything about its corruption. I personally believe, as knuck said, that the Masamune became corrupted after Masa and Mune went to sleep (perhaps before the fall of Guardia) and the fall itself, in which it may have been used to slay many or have been corrupted by Porre. It also seems to have masters. Perhaps its 'master' before Dario was the man seen in that cutscene.

JustinS1985

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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2003, 08:36:18 pm »
What I want to know is what made Masa and Mune go to sleep in the first place,  I doubt they just got tired. . .they spent the entire time from the fall of zeal until 600 A.D. without going to sleep.  So what made them do it?  Oh, and as far as the article, I really doubt I'm gonna have time to do it (pre med majors suck)  so if someone would like to take over on it, feel free, if it doesn't get done I might have some time to do it after work over christmas.

Empiric

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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2003, 09:12:47 pm »
Pardon me for jumping in uninvited... but I figured I would add something not yet mentioned (I think.)

  (This is abstract and hypothetical, pardon the lack of proper documentation.)

    Earlier on it was stated that the Masamune was effective against Magus because It absorbed/distorted the energy of Lavos that permeated Magus's being.  I propose that purpose be taken a step further, in that Melchior created the Masamune to be a 'receptacle' of Lavos power.  Fighting fire with fire.  The Red Weapon was the untuned form of Masamune, and thus was attuned to Lavos's energy when it was plunged into the Mammon Machine, thus 'completing' it, with Masa and Mune as a sort of 'guardian' or keeper of the absorbed energies.  
   
As the battles continued, the Masamune absorbed more and more of the latent energy of Lavos.  How Masamune Two of CT fits in (As I see it) would be that Cyrus's spirit joined with the blade and 'increased' the energy of Lavos that could be harnassed.
     
Frog faces off against the true form of Lavos with the others, holding the Masamune in his hands.  One slash, two slashes, each one would have absorbed more of Lavos's power, pure and untainted (relative).
   
After Lavos is dispatched, Masa and Mune sleep, knowing that the threat is 'over.'  Cyrus goes on to his great reward, reincarnated, or completely nullified as time sees fit.  In their ignorence (and the two have litterally proven they are airheads) they figure no more Lavos, no need for the sword; little do they know that in fact Lavos still exists, albeit in a somewhat different form.  Lavos takes over the Masamune while the two sleep, creating the 'Demon Blade' of CC out of the pulsing-dangerous energy that the sword had accumulated over time.
   
This could also explain why Doreen was so angry with Masa and Mune, who had been sleeping on the job, letting Lavos use the accumulated energies of the sword as a form of avatar for himself.

This would explain the dual nature of the sword somewhat, for while it would 'reflect' the will of the weilder, it would also have the will of Lavos acting upon it.  It would take someone of strong will to balance the ying/yang aspect of the powers.  Masamune is the positive aspect of the power.  Demon Blade is the negative aspect of the power.
   
With this theory the Hero's medal that Frog was so attached to would in fact be Psychosomatic as earlier stated, as it would focus the intention of the weilder of the blade.  This would mean the Hero Medal would NOT have to be the same for both Frog and Pierre.  One must have an ideal to focus on, a banner to hold high and say "this is what I strive for."  It would be a power to enforce the mental-positive Masamune aspect.

    For those of you asking why didn't the Masamune aspect turn everyone who weilded the blade into a raving peace zealot, remember the intention of good has never theoretically been to dominate evil, but instead to create the balance that is necessary for existence to flourish.  The reason why the Demon Form DID make weilders become death zealots and jealous is because the intention of evil is indeed to overtake and sway the balance in its favor.

YbrikMetaknight

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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2003, 12:15:04 am »
Wow...that's a lot...but the idea has a lot of merit.  Welcome to the Compendium, Empiric!

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2003, 01:01:01 am »
Quote from: Empiric
Pardon me for jumping in uninvited... but I figured I would add something not yet mentioned (I think.)


Ha! One is always welcome to jump right in discussion. In fact, many earth-shaking proposals or bits of insight have come about this way.

Quote from: Empiric
(This is abstract and hypothetical, pardon the lack of proper documentation.)

    Earlier on it was stated that the Masamune was effective against Magus because It absorbed/distorted the energy of Lavos that permeated Magus's being.  I propose that purpose be taken a step further, in that Melchior created the Masamune to be a 'receptacle' of Lavos power.  Fighting fire with fire.  The Red Weapon was the untuned form of Masamune, and thus was attuned to Lavos's energy when it was plunged into the Mammon Machine, thus 'completing' it, with Masa and Mune as a sort of 'guardian' or keeper of the absorbed energies.


Good commentary; certainly the Masamune would utilize or at least conduct Lavos' power, as it is composed primarily of dreamstone. This is also in tune with a debate earlier on whether the plunge into the Mammon machine 'christened' the Red Knife in some fashion.

Your explanation on why the Masamune corrupts outwardly rather than simply reflect the evils of its wielder is reasonable; considering that the above statements are true, it is indeed likely that Lavos' power may reside in the Masamune in some form. In addition, under Ybrik's generally accepted theory that Lavos truly was expunged from the planet in 1999 A.D., fresh energy would still be available for the Masamune to absorb throughout history. Would you like to give a name to your theory? The entry in the theories/principles encyclopedia will probably be named Masamune (Corruption of), and your theory will be pitted against the belief that bad experiences with the Porre army caused its mutation into the 'Mammon Blade,' as Radical Dreamer called it.
   
Quote from: Empiric
For those of you asking why didn't the Masamune aspect turn everyone who wielded the blade into a raving peace zealot, remember the intention of good has never theoretically been to dominate evil, but instead to create the balance that is necessary for existence to flourish.  The reason why the Demon Form DID make weilders become death zealots and jealous is because the intention of evil is indeed to overtake and sway the balance in its favor.


Interesting. Welcome to the Compendium, Empiric; you've certainly made a hell of a landing.

To nitpick, there is one problem with your theory; the Masamune gradually became corrupted over 600 A.D. to 1020 A.D., correct? Thus, would this also include the physical mutation seen in Chrono Cross? Conversely, that may have just been an artistic change by Square.

May I open up discussion on another point of inquiry? What exactly is the 'Master' system that is implied in Chrono Cross? Apparently the Masamune, or at least the evil sword, declares certain beings its masters, albeit for a very short time. It is this way with Dario; upon his remembrance of his deeds, the Masamune is summoned to him. After the fight, the master apparently becomes Serge. However, as there is no history to this system, it may not have any relevancy/truth.

Drumguy074

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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2003, 02:26:24 am »
Sorry to go off on a tangent like this, but maybe we can figure out something by figuring out what exactly dreamstone is.  From the name, it sounds like it is a substance that can draw/release power from the dream or spirit world.  This would explain it's dual nature a little better in my opinion.

Since it would be able to manipulate the dream world, it could effect, and be effected by the subconscious of its weilder.  Thus, the sword would be able to reveal a person's true nature.

Empiric

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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2003, 08:02:31 am »
I shall hereby name my theory the:  Masamune Battery Theory.
Heh
 
Anyways, to continue with the earlier discussions, Remember that the generally conceded reasoning for Magus's transformation would have been Dark Magic, ipso facto, Wouldn't the Mammon Blade have decided to go for a cosmetic makeover as well either intently or unintently?
 
Also, with proposed Master System, once again (And I keep forgetting to quote) it was earlier stated that so far the Mammon Blade/Masamune had selected people with strong senses of self and a strong will (Radius... etc.)  This would also coincide with my Battery Theory, the blade needs a 'proper' recepticle to channel and guard its power.  Masa and Mune direct this search while they are in control, and Lavos directed it while he was in control.  Now remember Lavos brings 'Evolution' (i.e. change), and it would be logical that the Mammon Blade would be passed in quick succession from one master to another.  Masa and Mune however pick one for life on a general basis, and every time they have been handed off its been for some quest or another.  Masa and Mune require that the host be willing and have a purpose to better release said energy.  They want the biggest and the best.  Lavos simply wants a host to release it in a quick, angry burst.  And if the host survives, so much the better.

As for the dreamstone, It always seemed to me to be a sort of mental Capacitor, something mental power can be charged into and released from with minimul fuss but no long term commitment.  

I have another question, what is the origins of the Masamune in real life?  If somebody could find the myth or story in which this blade was brought to the attention of so many video games, it might lend us a hint as to the nature of the blade in the game.

YbrikMetaknight

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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2003, 01:18:34 pm »
Taken from the Final Fantasy Compendium (www.ffcompendium.com):

The Japanese sword Masamune: One explanation is that there was a feudal lord named "Masamune Date" (Date (da-te) is the family name) who ruled Rikuzen (area near Sendai) around the early 1600's. He lost one of his eyes due to sickness in childhood, and he was nicknamed "Dokuganryuu Masamune" (Masamune, the one eyed dragon). Another story says that there was a blacksmith named "Masamune", and his sword was so sharp that you could drive it into the ground in a lake, and leaves that floated by would float around the Masamune due to its holy power. Nate writes that Masamune is actually the name of a Japanese swordsmith from the 11th-12th centuries; the weapons are in display in museums. It's quite possible that the swordsmith's name is based on the legends. Dead_Duck confirms that "Masamune" refers to swords crafted by Goro Nyudo Masamune (around 1265-1358), one of the most famous Japanese swordsmiths.

That site has an awesome name origins page.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2003, 05:12:37 pm »
Ybrik's rhyme went like...

"Dreamstone has good synergy with Lavos' energy."

It apparently is able to conduct the power of Lavos more easily than other materials.

Drumguy074

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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2003, 05:30:07 pm »
My question is whether or not Lavos' energy is the only type of energy the dreamstone can absorb.  I don't think that this would make sense, being that the dreamstone was present before Lavos crashed into the planet.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2003, 08:12:14 pm »
Interesting. Robo's sensors pick up spiritual energy from the Masamune once it is forged.

Ok, it is confirmed. In Frog's flashback of being transformed, he falls from the mount to a bank by the river -- and near that bank is a treasure chest found in Denadoro! Thus, either Square used the Denadorean map for the flashback, or this may be a suggestion that this event truly occurred there.

Also, might the Badge of Courage be the Hero's Medal? Before calling it the former, Cyrus speaks to King Guardia that it is time to retrieve the Medal and find the mythical sword. The events thereafter transpire one after the other; Frog later calls the Hero's Medal the 'Medal' before addressing it by its full name.

Lithe

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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2003, 01:34:51 am »
Quote
Another story says that there was a blacksmith named "Masamune", and his sword was so sharp that you could drive it into the ground in a lake, and leaves that floated by would float around the Masamune due to its holy power.


Ah yeah, I've a heard a version of this one.  In the version I heard, it was actually a contest between the swordmakers Masamune and Murasame.  They both stuck their swords in a stream as leaves floated by on the water.  Murasame's sword cut the leaves neatly in half as they drifted by, but Masamune's sword actually pushed the leaves away due to it's spiritual power.  Which is all rather funny, because I dimly recall (and I may be wrong on this) that Edge's best sword in FFIV was the Masamune, and his second best sword was the Murasame  :P .

Empiric

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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2004, 12:49:13 pm »
Considering that the place where the battle between Magus and Cyrus took place is a pixel by pixel match with the small ledge outside the Masamune cave in the mountain, I would tend to agree that the event occured there.  Plus, all Magus would have to do is turn around and return the sword piece to the cave.

Now, a quick thought about the master system:
Since Cyrus was considered the last master of the Masamune I would assume that he would have been the last person to touch the blade before its isolation in the mountains.  However, unless the Masamune simply decided to float back into the cave from right outside (A power it had never demonstrated before), that would mean that either Magus or Ozzie (Probably Ozzie, considering Magus probably wont touch it) would have to pick the sword up and place it in the cave.  Since the Masamune doesn't consider either of them a master, consider this a point towards the fact that a master system exists, and that it requires more then a touch to become a master.