Author Topic: Masamune, Einlanzer, & Hero's Medal  (Read 6369 times)

ZeaLitY

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Masamune, Einlanzer, & Hero's Medal
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2004, 05:05:40 pm »
If it means anything, the Masamune can move itself and perhaps even teleport, as demonstrated by the incident with Dario. It moves by itself and apparently teleports into the area.

CHAOS

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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2004, 09:58:43 pm »
Okay, here's my theory; shoot holes in it all you want: After Lavos was defeated, Masa and Mune went to sleep, since the perceived threat ws over. Frog then left the Masamune to rest. Time passes; Porre rises up and conquers Guardia, and the Masamune was seized. Now since Lavos was defeated (in a sense) and Masa and Mune were sleeping, the sword became unstable. Also, since Mase and Mune were asleep at the wheel, anyone could wield the Masamune. After the Porre army used it on the battlefield, the sword evetually became so unstable split in two, essentially making two swords. There was the good one, Einlanzer; and the evil one, the "Demonic" Masamune; which reflects the dual nature of the original Masamune's potential.

As for the Hero's Medal, suppose it has nothing much to do with the Masamune, but more to do with it's previous wielders? Perhaps it is illustrious and unknown (unknown in the sense that it isn't covered in the plot) history that gives it it's power?

ZeaLitY

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Masamune, Einlanzer, & Hero's Medal
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2004, 02:33:38 am »
The Medal might be more psychosomatic than anything. Also, the Einlanzer is confirmed to have been forged by the Dragonians in El Nido.

WHile in a chat with Aitrus and JustinS1985, we arrived at the subject of the Masamune's history. Is it not odd that the Masamune resides at the Isle of the Damned during 1017 A.D. in both dimensions? Radius found it either in Zenan or in the Divine Dragon Falls, and slayed Garai; burying him at the Isle caused it to mutate. There are two theories on why the Masamune is there:

1.) ZeaLitY: The Masamune, being warped and twisted, sought out such a defiled place.
2.) Aitrus: When Radius buried him, he might have left the sword with Garai to avoid keeping it and risking the corruption that it already had.

I believe Aitrus has solved this one.

Empiric

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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2004, 12:15:44 pm »
This draws a new question:  If the Masamune can teleport, what draws it to the Denadoro mountains and the Divine Dragon/Isle of the Damned area to begin with?  What was so special that caused the Denadoro mountains to become its home in the first place?

Chrono'99

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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2004, 01:36:12 pm »
err
If I remember well, Crono's party cross a cliff at Denadoro Mountain, a cliff with lots of wind. Doesn't Masa (or is it Mune :wink: ?) say that he "wants to become the wind" or something like that?

ZeaLitY

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Masamune, Einlanzer, & Hero's Medal
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2004, 08:29:42 pm »
That's a good explanation. I originally thought you were thinking of the winds at Death Peak, but I searched the script and found:

Quote from: Man
The famous Denadoro Mountain winds
have grown mild.


Well done.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2004, 02:59:43 pm »
Could it be possible that the evil Masamune from CC is not the same sword as the one Cyrus and Glenn used in CT?

In the original time-line, Melchior may never put the Red Knife into the Mammon Machine and may finish forging it into a sword quietly. This sword, Masamune, was the one Cyrus and Glenn/Frog knew and used.

When Crono came to 12000BC though, Crono took the Red Knife and plunged it in the Mammon Machine. This sword would be different than the original Masamune, being filled with loads of Lavos evil energy.

When the Ocean Palace fell, we know Schala and the Mammon Machine were thrown into the Darkness Beyond Time, and Schala eventually fused with Lavos. The Mammon Machine though, was somehow brought back to the palace, as Crono fights it inside the Black Omen. However, the Masamune is not there on the MM. Could the sword have been somehow brought from the Mammon Machine inside the DBT all the way to 1005AD (or some times before)?

...or can't it because it can't never replace the former Masamune, because of the Time Bastard theorem?

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2004, 06:59:09 pm »
Hm. If the Red Knife Masamune, or "Mammon Blade" as Radical Dreamer might call it, were placed into the Darkness Beyond Time physically...

The Mammon Blade would cease to exist the moment the first broken half of the Masamune was taken through time to Melchior -- 600 A.D. This depends on whether the Mammon Blade could retain existence if it were introduced into 1005 A.D.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2004, 03:14:17 am »
All right, this is my theory on the matter (and don't worry, it's not really outlandish like some of the other things I've said, I don't think). However, it will be neccessary that I make one allusion to Tolkien as I am wont to do. Anyway, here it is.
Firstly, the red stone that is called Dreamstone. I have always taken this to be some ancient magical mineral, perhaps come from the earth itself. Now as this relates to the Masamune...Melchior knew that Lavos was a danger, and that to attempt to take power from the Demon would result in catastrophe. To that end he knew that which he and the other masters had created, the Mammon machine, must be destroyed. Now whatever strength the Mammon machine might have, I would assume only a thing of great power could destory it. Thus Melchior took what remained of the Dreamstone and forged a knife. Now in my theory, the power of the Dreamstone is such that it can, in either the spiritual or physical realm, or maybe both, create incarnations of one's thoughts and desires, at least if forged in a certain way. In this I see the stone, when forged into the knife by Melchior, not unlike Sauron's ring: into it are poured the power and strength of the one forging it. But of course the motives of Melchior are different. In his zeal to end the menace and do right, he pours into the sword his courage, knowledge, and compassion. Thus, by the power of the stone of dreams, are born the three spirits: Masa, of his might and power; Mune, of his knowledge; and lastly Doreen, of his compassion and dreams (she strikes me to inheret both). In essence the stone give physical manifestation to Melchior's will. This is then enchained within the knife. So when he give it to Crono to use against the Mammon machine, he is in some manner giving his own strength to the fight, contained within the magical sword. (for whatever reason that I cannot speculate upon, however, Doreen is absent. Perhaps the spells or whatever do not bind the will fully to the sword, but only partially. Or maybe in the destroying of the Machine she would have little part. I do not know.). Yet there is more to the matter. The stone, as I have said, forged in that certain way, takes its power from the hopes and dreams of its holder; initially in the forging this was Melchior, and so his mark is strongest on the blade. Yet other things can to a lesser degree affect it as well, I think (though not change its innate being, that is of three spirits). When Crono wields it, his own hopes are put forth into it. The knife itself is not a knife, per say, I would say. Rather what it "really" is three spirits; the blade is merely a manifestation of both mood and will of those three. Thus Crono's will augmenting theirs changes its shape, because the will has changed slightly. So it becomes the Masamune (though it always was the "Masamune"; it is merely a new incarnation based on what has been put into it. How someone has used it, to borrow the terminoligy that the two say when you meet them in the Dendorado mountains). Like this it stays for thousands of years. Doreen, perhaps purposeless in the attack on Lavos, remains absent and wandering (and maybe dreaming, as is often her wont). Finally we come to the battle with Magus. He shatters the corporeal manifestation, and damages the strength of the spell that holds the spirits, who are the Will of Melchior, to the sword. But Melchior in time reforges his creation, and it is again how it should look (this is my absolute favorite quirk in CT. At the beginning of the game, he knows EXACTLY who you are at the fair, having seen you on the mountain later; but on the mountain, all is reversed.). Anyway, battles come and go, and we come to Porre (I would expect its potency against Magus is merely legend; it is, after all, the greatest sword in Chrono legend). Whoever takes it, I will not guess, uses it. Now as Masa and Mune so aptly said, it is not WHO wields it, but HOW. Because the strength of the sword is based on will. The original design of Melchior cannot be broken, but it can be corrupted. Whoever wields it uses it evilly, and has a will of darkness; this is poured into the sword, and due to its nature (which I have already thoerorized on), being a manifestation of the will, changes into the crooked blade we see in CC (I believe it being red is merely a coincidence, red being the color of blood and war). So great was whatever will guided it that unless someone of great will held it thereafter, the effect of the sword would work in reverse; rather than the will being made manifest in the blade, the darkness would lay hold of and ensnare whoever held it. Radius fell prey to this, because he had not the strength to shape it to his own will. It could not fully control him, but it echoed darkness in his heart. But when the Masamune is beaten by Serge, the evil will that had laid hold on them and dominated their being was shattered; Serge's will replaced it, though perhaps Riddle had a little to do with it. Then awoke Doreen, appalled at the darkness the two had lived in (she, likely, was banished from the blade, or weakened may be better; she, being of compassion, would have no place in the dark plans of whatever master held it. Without a will being placed into her, her power was weakened severely though, as said, being still innately born of Melchior's will she could not be fully destroyed without utterly annhilating the blade; she, and the other two ARE the blade). She chides her brothers, and as Serge, a seemingly compassionate soul, holds the sword then, her power is returned anew. In fact, I would wager it is greater than the other two; in my opinion only, I think he is more compassionate than he is knowledgeable or strong. Now, it is not fully who wields the blade, but how they use it (to quote the twain again); yet even so I think the desire and the will is what shape it, rather than true events. It is a sword based on the force of will (which, I think, shapes intended actions, and thus "how someone uses it; an evil person will use it for evil, and good for good). This effectively ends what I wanted to say on the Masamune.
Not much on the Einlanzer though. I think this to be the equivalent of the Masamune, and so in all respects similar; it is akin, I think, in the way that Terra Tower and Chronopolis are. At some point the victorious Reptites, even as the humans do in their time stream, forge a sword out of dreamstone. Whatever dreams of the smith there are are never fully explained; perhaps they are as unknowable as a Dragonian mind is to a human. But whatever may be, it has the power to circumvent the evil will of the Masamune, because whatever will holds it is stronger. Perhaps it was better forged, because even though it rests aside resentful Dario it is not darkened. Also, whatever spirits rest in it do not make themselves manifest, or perhaps are incapable of doing so to human eyes. It is thus not as potent a weapon as the Masamune in human hands, but would be equivalent in Dragonian. That is about all I can say on the Einlanzer.
Anyway...what do you think of my thoery? I think it fits nicely, personally.

Beever

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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2004, 02:20:17 am »
Hi, just wanted to butt in with my own theory about the Masamune.  From what I've read in this thread, this hasn't been mentioned, but if I've somehow overlooked something, I give you all permission to kick me in the shins.

What if there are two Masamunes?  By the time you get to Zeal, get the Ruby Knife, and prepare to destroy the Mammon Machine, you've already acquired the Masamune from 600 A.D., so this Masamune would be exempt from events in 12,000 B.C. that would change the sword in 600 A.D. and beyond.

Perhaps in the unaltered timeline, the Mammon Machine was never stabbed with the Ruby Knife and instead sent the Gurus, Janus, and Schala through time because the machine couldn't handle the power being channeled into it (I can't remember the exact dialogue, but in one of the scenes at the Ocean Palace--I can't remember if this occurred in the altered or unaltered timelines, or both--, someone, possibly Schala says something that I interpreted as it being too dangerous to power the MM to its extent, but Queen Zeal makes Schala do it anyways.  Also, I believe that in the scene from the unaltered timeline, you never actually see anyone stab the MM before teleporting the Gurus, Janus, and Schala)

So, when all is said and done, Frog goes back to 600 A.D. and lives out his life, and hides "his" Masamune somewhere.  But, the Masamune from the altered timeline is still lurking about somewhere, possibly ending up in Porre.  Over time, someone finds the sword and believes it to be the Masamune (which, it is, technically), becomes a general of the Porre army, which was raised to defeat Guardia for...some reason (it's never really explained, after all, we just know it happened), and eventually succeeds in their goal of bringing ruin to Guardia.  Then, once Porre decides to move in on El Nido, the general who helped defeat Guardia carries the Masamune with him into the region, and the sword eventually becomes fully evil and flips out on him.

As for the cosmetic difference between what becomes the Masamune in CT and the Evil Masamune in CC, I just thought that the look was changed to represent its evil (perhaps, like someone said, the power of Lavos that it had been exposed to corrupted it over time).

So, uh, shoot some holes in my theory or something.


EDIT:  Did anyone notice the difference in the Masamune's look in the The Masamune! and Life Skips a Beat cutscenes in the PSX CT?  It's probably unimportant, but I thought I'd mention it.