Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?

[V_Translanka]

I'm not sure if I've wrapped my mind around this one completely yet, so bare with me on this (i'm kinda confused myself)...

Magus is thrown back to 12000BC after Crono & Company disrupt his "summoning" of Lavos, right? In the original timeline he was killed because he wasn't disrupted, right?

Welly well Wellerson the Third...

He then persuades the Queen (his mother, Zeal) that he is a great and powerful Prophet due to his knowledge of that time & place. Upon doing so, he tells her to lock up Melchoir (where are the other Gurus? killed? locked up as well?). In the original timeline this doesn't happen, and the Gurus are sent through time to various points, Gasper to the End of Time, Belthasar to some time around 2300AD, and Melchior to some time around 1000AD.

Now here's the tricky part. Since he was locked up (and then freed by Crono & Co), he never went to the Ocean Palace (instead he gives Crono the Red Knife and he sticks around the Earthbound Village.

So then the Gurus are never sent to those timelines, right? Heck, we don't even see him send JANUS forward in time!

So then, would all of that be paradoxed? Or is it shrugged off because originally they too became time travelers and are thusly not effected by the changes? At the very least, we have what the hell happens to all of them that aren't sent through portals in this new timeline, right?

[ZeaLitY]

The Entity preserves them. The villagers remark that they saw Melchior and Janus be devoured by a sort of weird gate.

[Akuma]

Yes, Magus appearing interrupted Queen Zeal's plans to send the 3 gurus to different times, with Janus. So Magus appears and not sure what his motives are, but he decides that they should lock Melchior up in the Mt. Woe. And Gaspar either of his own free will or by force goes to a deserted island, if I remember, certain Zealians say something about Gaspar living on an island. Belthasar's whereabouts in the "Altered timeline" remain unknown.

What we do know is Melchior and Janus where eventually warped because a villager in The Last Village says he saw them both go inside a strange black warp. Perhaps the same happened to Gaspar and Belthasar wherever he was?

I'm not sure if Janus and the 3 Gurus all warped to their Original timeline counterparts destinations. But even if they did not, it would have no effect on The Original Gurus and Janus' existence. So it's possible the "Altered" Janus and the 3 Gurus all warped to 65,000,000 B.C. for all we know. Most likely though, whatever force was behind that "black portal" that got Melchior and Janus, probably sent them through time to where the "Original" or Lavos timeline Janus and 3 Gurus went.

Gaspar goes to The End Of Time, Belthasar to 2300 A.D., and what I'm about to say supports my Guile is Magus theory. Melchior, taking Janus with him gets transported to 1000 A.D. Janus grows up in Zenan and becomes Guile.

Also we know Dalton uses Black Portals, weather or not they have anything to do with the Black portal that took Melchior and Janus somewhere is unknown.

[Sentenal]

perhaps the Gaspar and Belthasar were imprisoned in the Ocean Palace, and Melchior followed Crono and Co...

[Zatopek]

and what I'm about to say supports my Guile is Magus theory. Melchior, taking Janus with him gets transported to 1000 A.D. Janus grows up in Zenan and becomes Guile.

This simply can't be the case.  Time travelers are protected from the Grandfather Paradox, but everything else is overwritten by changes in the timeline.  Elements in the game reveal the Janus was again sent to 600AD (or actually many years before that, but you know what I'm saying), for after the new version of the Ocean Palace disaster, things have still transpired as if Janus was sent to the Middle Ages and became Magus.  Why would Ozzie remember him in the Ozzie's Fort sidequest if he had never been sent back?  Why is Cyrus still dead, and his sidequest called "A Knight Slain By Magus"?  Janus was preserved in the timeline as were the three gurus.

[Sentenal]

i dont think Time Traveler's immunity works like how your putting it, but they do say that Janus and Melchior were sucked up by a portal or something after the incident.

the way i always saw time travelers immunity worked like this:  The time travelers are only protected from the changes that they make, or changes they are not present (in the changing time) for.

[ZeaLitY]

It's Time Bastard. There can't be two versions of Magus running around. Since Magus as we know him is the first time traveler, little Janus of the Keystone Timelines loses precedence.

[Sentenal]

Time Bastard..?  I guess i need to go look at that agian, because i dont see any reason why there cant be 2 magus now.

[Doctor Shaft]

The theory is that time travel in Chrono Trigger doesn't allow for the Grandfather Paradox...

i.e.: You can't have chance meetings with yourself, or have two or three different versions of yourself all in the same "dimension" that you're currently residing in (I might be getting some of this wrong).  

There can't be two Magus' because as you go through time none of your past events change. If Chrono plants a tree in the forest, regardless of what quick time changes he goes through, that one little tree he plants in 600 AD is still going to become a forest.

No matter how many times we see Janus and the Gurus get shuffled around in Zeal, the primary result always remains that same. That's why there can't be two Janus'... if there were, then all of time would get shuffled out of order, and eventually you'd have pure chaos.  

If you notice, the CT characters neither have any control over exactly what time period they'll go to, nor do they necessarily get to choose what events they will change or mess up.  There's no butterfly effect in Chrono Trigger, so to speak.  

Crono will never meet "himself" in the timeline.  Same goes with Janus. Yes, in straight "time travel" theory you'd imagine something like this could and would work. But CT time travel is definitely "special" in function.

[Zaperking]

I don't think that it wasn't allowed, but never thought to be added into the game. Like how in CC a character can see themselves in the alternate dimension. Whos to say that maybe 3 minutes hasn't gone by since you went into that other world? Or a major event has happened ?

Since Chrono Trigger does revolve around Crono and the gang, theres not much chance that they'll see themselves because they never go back to correct their mistakes, but they just keep going on.

And there is a place where they do meet themselve... *Cough* Chrono Trigger *cough*

Just have anyone in your party that you had at the Ocean Palace disaster, and then you will be seeing yourself. Remember if you have Magus in your party when you have to trade Crono for the doll? You make him look at Schala and himself and he goes "......." and i can't remember i think he says "how pathetic".
But this was a time freeze, but it still means that they saw themselves in another time!

[SilentMartyr]

That is different, the time freeze doesn't do anything other than switch the clone for Crono. The immune time travelers see thier previous selves, but not vice versa. When you are at the palace and Crono dies you don't see tow of everyone running around do you?

[Doctor Shaft]

Right.

While the Chrono Trigger affords you the opportunity to go back and "correct your own mistake," there is never any chance for interaction with "yourself."  Crono and gang are never given an opportunity to leap back and forth and attempt to talk themselves out of something, or fight together with themselves.  

In Chrono Cross, it's somewhat different in that you can possibly have two of the same person in one area, so I suppose that puts me down for a second... but that also happens because there are two split timelines, each progressing along with the other supposedly at the same pace as you transfer between the two.  One where the interference doesn't happen, and one where it does (I think, I'm rusty).

But even then, I think that's kind of different. It's not so much that you go "back in time" or to the "future" to talk to yourself, as much as it is that you're speaking to an alternate version who doesn't even live in the same world.  

So it's different.

[Zaperking]

How about Serge in his new body having to fight his own body, just with Lynx in it? Thats kinda like interacting with yourself.

I jut thought you ment if a character can see themself in another time, not acctually make contact with them x.x
I wonder what would happen if they got something like a Schala doll and switched it with Schala.... Stupid Crono and Gang. They should have rescued everyone there and smashed the Lavos statue ^.^

[Sentenal]

okay, it seems i understand most of the way Time Travel works in CT, other than this Time Bastard theory.  Basically, it prevents you from time traveling to a point in time where you already are, right?  Anyway, although that would have no bearing on Janus, and the 3 gurus getting sent to where they are supposed to be after the ocean palace disaster, i'll try and disprove this theory...

Okay, the sidequest for restoring the forest.  You leave Robo to help cultivate the earth to regrow the forest.  you go to 1000ad to get robo back.  then, after you have robo back, you can then go back to 600ad, where you can see robo cultivating the earth.  2 robos existing in the same timeline.  if the game would allow it, there would have been nothing stopping you from talking to him.

[Akuma]

Doesn't Magus see Janus in 12,000 B.C.? Also isn't it possible for Robo to see Robo in 600 A.D.? I mean there's really no doubt about it that it's possible for there to be 2 of the same people.