Author Topic: Pinning down Regiorra and Regionna  (Read 4922 times)

Satoh

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1291
  • Am I your dream... or are you mine...?
    • View Profile
Re: Pinning down Regiorra and Regionna
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 02:11:28 am »
Why couldn't he be in Porre? Do we have reason to believe that Porre would antagonize Viper directly?

Porre is considered a country as I recall... considering that fact, it is likely very large, and as I mentioned, the CT maps and actual landscapes may differ greatly in scale... Unless we are to believe that there really are only a handful of people living on the planet.

Another thing, about the "remote town of Regiorra," this phrase, depending on the original Japanese, could mean that the town is an outlying part of Porre. Or simply put: The town of Regiorra is somewhere on the edge of the civilized portion of the Porre territory. It is 'remote' in the sense that the coast is remote from the center of a continent. We also don't know where Serge is from initially as I recall, so he could be referencing his own origins, meaning, "Compared to my hometown, Regiorra is remote," or "Compared to the capital of Porre, Regiorra is remote."

Because the word 'remote' is so subjective, and can be even moreso in Japanese (which is a very subject-relative language), we can't say exactly what he means here.

By the same logic, if Viper was in Regiorra and that is the same place as Regionna, which is an outlying town of Porre, he would have some manner of buffer zone between himself and the major force of Porre. Military forces tend to be denser toward the capitals and strategic centers of countries, and not necessarily nonexistent, but slightly diminished in the outer "less important" portions of the country.

As I recall, Guardia was (before its fall) the largest territory in the world, yet it only has one small burg to its name. Thus the CT maps may not show us the entire country including every city and house (99% unlikely in fact) but may in fact represent the entire country as a single town; the quintessential Guardian town. Likewise, each group of houses could represent a town...(unlikely as there is only one mayor to each 'town,' and seems to be at least one for each as well).

In CT, Porre was never really important, so it could be that the Porre town we see is Regiorra, it despite the fact it is the only town we really see in Porre, it may still only be an outer town.

Small cities are better hiding places than large ones, due to the relative size of the law enforcement there, to cite real world examples... The US has greatly increasing gang activity in smaller, largely unheard of cities, than in the big cities everyone associates with gang violence. The reason is simple: Small towns aren't equipped to deal with them, and they can run amok.

For this reason, Viper could have chosen Regiorra as his 'in plain sight' hiding place for the Flame.

Two final notes on why he might have a mansion in Porre itself. First off, Vera assembles a strike force rather quickly to attack the manor, meaning that even if they were in an outlying city, there would have to be Porre soldiers/police/military police relatively nearby.

The second note is this: Why do we assume Viper wasn't a respected citizen of Porre? I can't seem to find any information as to why Porre and Viper would be at odds in Radical Dreamers. Perhaps in Chrono Cross, yes, but there is no outright evidence I can recall or find that states they were enemies. If the Acacia Dragoons were in fact a part of Porre to begin with, it would make sense that Viper would have a mansion there.

I also ask, do we know the Flame was 'passed' to him willingly? Perhaps he led an assault on Guardia himself and claimed it as part of his spoils. In the former case, it's not unlikely that as there was no stated tension between Porre and Guardia before The Fall, Viper could have been a loyal friend to Guardia, and thus was entrusted to its safekeeping, even knowing he couldn't prevent the seizure of the kingdom itself. How do you hide something from being discovered by your government when they search for it? You keep it with you, because why would they suspect you of having it when it should be in the vault?

I'm not stating that it is an obvious conclusion, or even a well founded one, but it is a logically plausible theory.

utunnels

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
    • View Profile
Re: Pinning down Regiorra and Regionna
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 02:23:38 am »
Quote from: Kodokami
So, Viper may have owned multiple mansions?
I just say possible, but no hints I've found.

As for Regionna and Regiorra, to be honest I didn't even noticed they were 2 names at first.
It is possible they just made a typo, unless it is a situation like Brazil and Brasilia (still 99.999% unlikely).

Quote
. The only argument I have against it is that Serge states he met Kid in the "remote town" of Regiorra
But consider some small nation/state, which has only 1 or 2 towns but a large area of untamed land. Perhaps the place was once taken from the Mystics, so population is small.

By taking another look at the topic, I spotted several mistakes.

西のゲルズブーレ means Gerzbuehle of the west, not west territory of Gerzbuehle. LOL I feel the translator sometimes messed with の too much. :wink: It is not always "of" in English.
Similarly, "remote town Regiorra" is better, not to be confused with a remote town of Regiorra.


And it keeps saying the frontier Regionna/Regiorra in the Japanese script, which is sometimes omitted in the translated version.

What is certain:

1. Regionna(if Regiorra is a typo) is a frontier/remote town/region (of what?).
2. Lynx is the ruler of Regionna.
3. Viper is the ruler of Gerzbuehle.
4. Gerzbuehle is a western region/country/state/town, whatever.
5. Whether Regionna and Gerzbuehle are part of a bigger kingdom, or whether one is part of another, it is not mentioned.
6. Since Regionna is a remote/frontier region, it is politically less important. That's why Serge feels strange Porre would notice this place.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 02:40:56 am by utunnels »

Vehek

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1680
    • View Profile
Re: Pinning down Regiorra and Regionna
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2012, 01:37:02 am »
Thanks Vehek and utunnels. So, Viper may have owned multiple mansions? :o
Well, my idea was different. Let me tell it in story form.

...After much searching, Lynx had uncovered ruins of the lost magical kingdom. With the machines within the ruins, he could construct a great magical device. To conceal his future activities, he ordered the construction of a mansion above the site. After the construction of Lynx Manor, he continued his work. He knew he would need more, including the Frozen Flame, which was in the possession of General Viper. And so, all that false befriending of Viper and other events leading up to the game happened.

In even shorter form: Viper never owned the manor in the game. It was always Lynx's.
My idea has its flaws. The clock tower has fallen into disrepair. Riddel remembers the Radius figure being removed from the torture chamber. The Radius figure knows about the secret switch in the ballroom, and expects Riddel to know as well.
A lot of that is from the Demiforce translation though.

Analysis attempt based off machine translation
  • The stuff about the gears and cogs isn't in there. It does mention that the equipment is dusty, and like the Demiforce translation, that it's no longer being used as a clock tower.
  • No direct mention of remembering the event. It looks like it was originally the "check the torture chamber" suggestion.
  • He simply gives the information about the secret switch. No explicit indication that he thinks they (his colleagues and/or Riddel) should already know it.
So the points I picked out might not be as bad as I thought. There are still oddities, such as the first one. Why would someone build a clock tower into a building and then stop using it only a few or so years later? Or maybe the descriptions and image of the ruins don't fit with my idea of there being any significance to the ruins in the present day.

utunnels

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
    • View Profile
Re: Pinning down Regiorra and Regionna
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2012, 05:24:17 am »
I like your story Vehek. Consider how the game was made, likely the author didn't have time to put all things together. To me Esmeld is the strongest hint that the manor is the same one, it is just too nautual to think he was an old guard of the manor. "Radius" knows too much about the secret passage -- but, since Viper and Lynx were friends, it is possible they once visited Lynx's little secret place. No wonder Lynx could set up a trap to kill Viper in the ruin like he did to the Dreamers.

"Radius" was described as a traitor, but no further information on what he did to his comrades. So we can only guess.

Quote from: Vehek
No direct mention of remembering the event. It looks like it was originally the "check the torture chamber" suggestion.
I double checked that section to find demiforce actaully did a good amount of job to make Riddel's story vivify.

Demiforce version:
Quote
"He is an Acacia Dragoon, is he not?" Magil asks.
"He was, before he spent countless days and nights locked up in the torture chamber, losing his mind as well as his identity in the process...
I remember the day they removed him from that dreadful room, beaten within an inch of his life..."
"The torture chamber?"
"Yes... a terrible room upstairs, where Lynx breaks down peoples' hearts and bodies..."
Riddel shivers, but quickly recomposes herself.
"Perhaps we may find a clue to his past there," says Magil. I'd hoped it wouldn't come to this...

What I've made out:
Quote
"Please help us."
Riddle turns back, lowers her head.
"...perhaps once taken back to the chamber of death, he can get his sanity back. Because he once lost his honor and faith there..."
"Chamber of Death, what's that?" asks Kid.
"It is a dreadful torture chamber which Lord Lynx uses to destroy both one's mind and body."
After mentioning that, Riddel shivers as if a gusty chilly wind is passing through.
"Flowing blood and tears, make everyone locked up in that room occupied by strong evil minds such as hatred and jealousy, only thing left is their desire of vengeance on the living."
"That room is living by eating suffering and terror of (living) humans."
"Humph. Such thing, I Kid-sama..."
"Can't forgive!"

Does this chamber mind you of the Masamune sword in Chrono Cross?

Quote
Radius:
   I know I lost my sanity
   because of that sword...
   But I must admit, the sword
   is not entirely to blame.
   I was jealous of Garai...
   I wanted to be the better
   swordsman.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 05:32:15 am by utunnels »

Razig

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
Re: Pinning down Regiorra and Regionna
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2014, 09:57:33 pm »
We do know of at least one place where Zealan ruins are canonically known to exist: the Forest Ruins north of Medina. Those ruins also housed an underground vault in the prerelease version of Chrono Trigger: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Sealed_Pyramid_(CTP).html Once the magical pyramid was removed by Crono, the site would simply appear to be a large stone slab; perfect for the beginnings of a foundation. Although the vault was removed from the final version of the game, it's reasonable to think that it might still exist and was discovered when construction of the manor began.

It may only be circumstantial, but it's also worth noting that Lynx in Radical Dreamers employs large numbers of goblins as guards; these could easily be recruited from Medina.

I'm of the opinion that Chrono Trigger's world maps should be taken as representative instead of literal, but look at this picture: http://img.gamefaqs.net/screens/b/a/f/gfs_18926_1_4.jpg from the perspective of this one: http://www.retroplayers.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/720px-Chrono_Trigger_1000_AD_Map.png assuming the heroes are looking at the manor from a cliff on the Heckran Cave mountain. The geography would roughly fit, especially considering artistic liberties were probably taken.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10592
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile

Razig

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
Re: Pinning down Regiorra and Regionna
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2015, 07:47:36 pm »
Thank you. Here's a picture to demonstrate what I meant. As I said, the geography is a rough fit, but the only direct contradiction I see is that the blue line in the Radical Dreamers picture should be looking down on land. Perhaps that didn't look dynamic enough and it was changed to water to make the scene more impressive.

Unfounded Speculation
The crenelated structure on the horizon is also a mystery. It could be a large dock on Medina's southern shore; possibly for the ferry Bandeau was going to establish. He mentioned that the ferry was going to run between Medina and Truce, which would seem to make Medina's western shore a more likely location to build a dock, but perhaps the plans were changed due to the fall of Guardia and the rise of Porre.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10592
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Pinning down Regiorra and Regionna
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2015, 12:22:56 am »
Cool; got it added as well now. It seems too attractive to pass up as a concept.

Kodokami

  • Entity
  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 999
  • Enjoy the moment!
    • View Profile
Re: Pinning down Regiorra and Regionna
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2015, 11:31:51 pm »
More evidence supporting that Regiorra and Regionna are the same: One of the interviews recently translated describes Lynx as ruling "the remote town of Regiorra"--the exact phrase used in Radical Dreamers for describing where Kid and Serge met. Before, Lynx was described as governing Regionna.

I'm pretty convinced it's just a typo and that the two locations are actually the same.