Author Topic: Quote Digest  (Read 70438 times)

Thought

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #540 on: May 25, 2010, 11:09:59 am »
Quote from: Doctor Who
The Doctor: Funny little human brains. How do you get around in those things?
Rose: When he's stressed he likes to insult species.
The Doctor: Rose, I'm thinking.
Rose: Cuts himself shaving - does half an hour on life forms he's cleverer than.

tushantin

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #541 on: May 25, 2010, 12:10:39 pm »
@Lord J: It's pretty much obvious that Faith is not a synonym to Science, but I never said anything about term; they are however parallel in nature, especially when Science takes on the traditional Two-Point view (rather than the logical Open-Point) where the bases take upon standardized methods of evaluation rather than confirm a third possible alternative. On the other hand one has choice of pursuing Faith or dogma (unless bound to by force, restricting rights which is thus against the morality of religion), the right to heresy and the right to believe. Taking into accounts of belief within faith which, with a person's own choice, can be reconsidered based on and confident belief in theories that may already have been confirmed not later than 10 years ago, it all ends up at one place: choice. And indeed, both science and faith has its flaws.

And there's more to it than that. But I take it back; you don't seek understanding. But I'm not really one to elaborate.

@ZeaLity: Atheism isn't anything bad. Einstein may have been an atheist, but his philosophical views emerged on the basis of religion, thus "a deeply religious non-believer". Though heretic, Isaac Newton was also a religious alchemist despite his disbelief in trinity deities (EDIT: but he certainly did believe in God, although not in an traditional orthodox perception). Nikola Tesla may not have been religious but he was a believer; he believed in martians, spirits, telekineses, etc. which actually boosted his zeal and curiosity into uncovering greatest inventions and revelations influential to mankind where others feared or didn't bother to explore. Even the ancient Hindu Chiromancy (astrological exact science, not fortune telling) is today studied by doctors in order to predict symptoms/health conditions, or even predicting a person's occupation accurately. When I said childish I was implying at your attitude, not atheism.

Quote from: Albert Einstein
"That deeply emotional conviction of a presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.

@Though: LMAO i remember that quote. xDDD Awesome!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 12:53:35 pm by tushantin »

prism

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #542 on: May 25, 2010, 03:59:26 pm »
Ah, this being Towel Day, I believe I have an appropriate quote:

Quote
"The Babel fish" said The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly, "is a small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconsious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the consious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish."
"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:
`I refuse to prove that I exist, says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic."
`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.


The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

A subject always best approached with a sense of humor.  I suppose it helps if you're British.

Thought

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #543 on: May 25, 2010, 04:28:14 pm »
Being British helps with everything... I mean:

Quote from: Thought
Being British helps with everything.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #544 on: May 25, 2010, 05:07:10 pm »
Confusing faith and science again. Faith is believing, regardless of supporting or contrasting evidence, that something is true. The scientific method involves theorizing and hypothesizing that something may be observably reproducible and, given enough support, "true" until more evidence is collected. I believe in the potential of humanity to master itself and explore the universe. This is achievable through better systems of civilization, self-directed evolution, and so on. There is strong evidence here, predominantly in the upward arc of humanity observed thus far. In the 1800s, it was possible and even likely given humanity's understanding of planets that a leading scientist could postulate life exists on other planets in our solar system. Tesla had some evidence to that end from the aberrant click radio signals he allegedly picked up, which he could not explain at the time. It is different from believing that humans have Thetans inside of them without any evidence for and with voluminous evidence against. (Or, among more socially acceptable cults, that "God" exists.)

prism

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #545 on: May 25, 2010, 05:34:56 pm »
Being British helps with everything... I mean:

Quote from: Thought
Being British helps with everything.

Case in point:

Quote
A subject always best approached with a sense of humour.

Much better.  Of course, what I'm referring to is yellow bile and phlegm.  But one must always approach humours with humour, or risk having too much yellow bile...


Lord J Esq

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #546 on: May 25, 2010, 11:26:35 pm »
And indeed, both science and faith has its flaws. And there's more to it than that. But I take it back; you don't seek understanding. But I'm not really one to elaborate.

Here is revealed something which is all too common in the human condition, being the limitations to understanding which people impose on themselves in the course of maintaining their worldview. You seem genuinely ignorant that your own stubbornness is preventing you from understanding me. It is unlikely that you seriously considered any proposition, observation, or declaration I made. Instead, you eschewed credible justification or earnest exploration and crassly repeated your original mistaken assertion, implying a parallel between two institutions which does not exist. Then, when faced with lack of validation from me, your response was that I apparently "don't seek understanding." Again, the irony is excitingly thick.

You could make a number of valid criticisms of me, but lack of curiosity is not one of them. I understand what you were trying to say, gibberish though it is, and I even see the root error: You conflate the physical with the metaphysical. I can appreciate that you think you are on to something. Curiosity does not preclude me from forming conclusions, however, and you, like many a mook before you, have mistaken my rejection of your claim for closed-mindedness. You would perhaps realize your error if you were to bring something credible to my attention that I had not previously considered. But what you have shown me thus far in these exchanges of religion is nothing new, nothing I haven't seen a hundred times already. There was a time when you struck me as smarter and less dogmatic, but I am beginning to be able to see that that perception was my mistake, resulting from the fact that I am much less familiar with modes of expression by people in your culture than I am with people in my own. You're more of a Truthordeal type, sans the rigid Christian moralism.

When you insist that science and faith are parallels on the premise that both amount to a system of decisions to commit acts of belief, you are committing what I might call "the classic faith-based misinterpretation of science." Scientific data are statements of fact, valid as far as the underlying parameters of observation are valid. Facts are truths of a kind, but science itself is not concerned with "the truth" per se. Scientific theorization is premised upon the consistent description of the behavior of phenomena--so that we might be able to draw conclusions about how things were, how they are, and how they will be. The province of science is the physical world, and, except to the extent that all physical quantities are "true" in that they exist, truth itself is not a part of the physical world. It doesn't actually matter if a scientific theory is metaphysically true or not--the theory need only be valid--and a true (heh!) scientifically-minded individual won't interpret scientific conclusions as statements of "truth" (granting that they might use the word "truth" because of the functional similarity between truth and validity). This is one of the great powers of science: It empowers us to talk meaningfully about our world without having to own any truths. That's why good scientists will blithely pronounce that they may damn well be wrong and are quick to admit when it happens.

"The truth" is a metaphysical concept, not a physical one, and it belongs in the province of logic, not science. The truth isn't relevant to science, and so the institution of faith doesn't apply, because faith deals in (knock-offs of) the truth--not statements of fact. Belief is simply not required. Thus, your characterization as science as a belief system is wrong to the utmost. And this becomes readily apparent when you start using faith in place of factual information. "Here is a new microwave! No need to check the power rating; I believe it is 1200 watts. I will cook my food accordingly." Most people who go that route, notwithstanding the few who hit false positives when their microwave turns out to actually operate on 1200 watts, are going to end up with undercooked or overcooked food.

Religious people consistently fail to understand this. To them, atheism is a religion and science is a belief system. The power of faith is so corrupting that these individuals become unwilling or unable to see the world outside the lens of "the truth." It is beyond them to understand that science doesn't use belief because it isn't interested in the truth. It's analogous to what I might call "the classic faith-based misinterpretation of nonreligiosity," wherein religious people are genuinely stupefied at how nonreligious people could possibly have an ethical grounding or any sense of satisfaction in life.

Because science describes the physical world with predictive power while religion does not, the counterstroke of believers has long been to degrade the value of factuality and assert that science is nothing more than another belief system. That's what you've done here. You get zero points for doing so. It isn't that I'm not curious; it's that you're mistaken and you don't realize it. That said, you have been a friendly presence here, so at least you don't get stuck up on yourself like some of the others do. If only you would extend your humbleness just a little farther, into your worldview!

tushantin

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #547 on: May 26, 2010, 04:01:15 am »
@Lord J AND ZeaLity: When I said "you do not seek" is because you've not taken the time to step into the shoes deeply enough of every (theistic or not) and experience the morals therein. Lord J, believe me, you have never been wrong, but you have been limited in some aspects. First and foremost I'm a Philosopher, and only then I'm an atheist, but certainly not an anti-theist, and my defense of religion is on the very grounds of morality (which you deem non-existent) than "scientific evidence". Faith is an absolute sense of belief, confident belief without the need of evidence, on the other hand Science is belief only after evidence has been furnished. But these aren't the ONLY two things guiding humanity. There is also Militarianism/civics/politics, Philosophy, Fictional Interest, etc., and taken into rounds they certainly are adjacent. If there's one thing experience has taught me is that Science is one of the tools to develop understanding the nature of everything, though everything physical, but is certainly limited with regards to human sentiments, the concept of "concept", art, predicting the nature of civil conditions and activities, and what have you.

Science can't be the "only" tool in order to gather absolute knowledge of everything, if used for most, but judging by most rational people who depend solely on the grounds of science you can actually say they have some sort of an undying "faith" upon the thought of Science being the only thing that can uncover every secret.

I have visited many families of different communities and have been accustomed to their habits and traditions which often marvel me. I have many times read the irony of Christianity but I admit I have never experienced it first hand. However being from a Hindu family, despite the heavy influence of "deities", I have also noticed the traditional and cultural values encouraged from generations to come which adds to socializing with not only families from their community but also those from outside. Religion is more tied in with sentiments rather than rationality, and no one can argue with that, but from what I've noticed is that most Hindu morals and mannerism is never actually "forced", but it's more often "chosen" by the individual because they find something good within, and due to this the famed festivals of Lord Krishna and Ganesha is STILL celebrated today despite 50% of all Hindus being Atheist. They are indifferent towards "Gods", but they love being Hindu! In turn all that is polished and passed on. If that's the case with Hindu, then there has to be something about the rest of the religious cultures that I have missed. They have a long standing majestic ancestry.

Of course, for the atrocities of some religion (another reason I'm defending it) is because of severe politics. There still are plenty of people who'd love to rise to the head-seat and flatter themselves with riches and fame without giving a damn about the people. This has happened throughout history not only in Religion but also in monarchs and (ESPECIALLY) in our Indian Government which isn't influenced by religion. So why must only Religion be subject to having a bad name?

As for Tesla, initially he never really had any evidence. He was one of those scientists that take on "Open-View" considering the role of "possibility" in Science. He merely began speculating at some point without any hard evidence, making his peers think he's mad, but he sought them out anyway; first the evidence in order to harness help and funds for the project, and then he did the impossible, saw the invisible, and rowed the powah!

By the way, my concept of "Faith" is not bound to religion, but more on Philosophical and Psychological terms, the absolute belief of a human mind.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #548 on: May 26, 2010, 04:20:48 am »
Quote
you've not taken the time to step into the shoes deeply enough of every (theistic or not) and experience the morals therein

I am an ordained Mormon priest. I experienced full religion, right down to crying and feeling the spirit burn in my chest. Hysteria can be a powerful emotivator. I have walked down the path of belief, and it's a fraudulent house of cards.

Quote
As for Tesla, initially he never really had any evidence. He was one of those scientists that take on "Open-View" considering the role of "possibility" in Science. He merely began speculating at some point without any hard evidence, making his peers think he's mad, but he sought them out anyway; first the evidence in order to harness help and funds for the project, and then he did the impossible, saw the invisible, and rowed the powah!

Science considers possibilities and then explores them based on likelihood. You didn't explore Hinduism; you were born into it. If you'd been born in the American South, you'd be talking about Southern Baptists right now. Affirming and ratifying childhood conditioning is not choice.

tushantin

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #549 on: May 26, 2010, 10:30:58 am »
I am an ordained Mormon priest. I experienced full religion, right down to crying and feeling the spirit burn in my chest. Hysteria can be a powerful emotivator. I have walked down the path of belief, and it's a fraudulent house of cards.
That statement of mine was implied at Lord J, since I was fully aware of your former religious background, but do note that note every community is the same as the other. Just because one's so hateful doesn't mean every other is the same; some often contribute greatly to humanity. But something tells me you fear to explore them from the heart. Fear breeds ignorance, and ignorance breeds more fear, both in turn breeding hate.

Science considers possibilities and then explores them based on likelihood. You didn't explore Hinduism; you were born into it. If you'd been born in the American South, you'd be talking about Southern Baptists right now. Affirming and ratifying childhood conditioning is not choice.
Hah, there goes your "something you can't see does not exist" theory, but I'm glad you're starting to see my point slowly. But judging things based on category and background alone is your weakness giving you a very limited view of the nature of things even in humanity; you judge me because I was born in a community that I defend. What you fail to notice that I've taken my chances, my choices each step of the way, my decisions, knowledge and views vastly different from common atheists, Hindus and Muslims alike? I told you that I'm a Philosopher first, a humanitarian, and I look at humanity (Atheist or Religious) from that perspective. My difference in views are the result of my studies and exploration of my own culture, and varied religion of not only my country but also those outside, yet I do not enforce people to think like me. But I will till the end defend them all, even those I have not heard of yet. Religion, just like the government of some nations, has been a victim of selfish politics, and if you're going to take up arms against a false target then you may as well become an anarchist.

Sindhi culture is one of those that have originated from the earliest Dharmic religion that stood strong since earlier than 14,000 years ago, but due to the invasion of the Muslims at the north of Bharata the culture was greatly influenced and even altered. The Sindhi were divided often, but some stayed greatly true; but the culture was still weakening.

I could tell you a whole story of how I've gotten this far, but this ain't the proper thread to do so. Anywhos, I'll stop here now. Won't reply the next argument, at least not in this thread.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 10:47:15 am by tushantin »

Phillies64

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #550 on: May 26, 2010, 10:48:40 am »
Religion, just like the government of some nations, has been a victim of selfish politics, and if you're going to take up arms against a false target then you may as well become an anarchist.

I'm going to stay out of this debate, but I've been making this point for years. I'm just happy to see someone else say it.

Truthordeal

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #551 on: May 26, 2010, 11:07:28 am »
Quote from: Tushantin
But something tells me you fear to explore them from the heart. Fear breeds ignorance, and ignorance breeds more fear, both in turn breeding hate.

Quote from: Yoda
Everything! Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.

Quote from: Tushantin
By the way, my concept of "Faith" is not bound to religion, but more on Philosophical and Psychological terms, the absolute belief of a human mind.

Quote from: Obi Wan Kenobi
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Dear God, this entire forum is filled by Siths!

GenesisOne

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #552 on: May 29, 2010, 02:43:01 am »

Boy.  I'm gone for a while, and this whole debate springs up from a few sentences.  It is, in the same way, like a colossal redwood that grows from a small acorn over time. Onward and upward.

@Z: Einstein wasn't an atheist. Some quotes of his to jog the memory:

Quote from: Albert Einstein
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment"

He was most likely a deist - i.e. he didn't believe in a personal god:

Quote from: Albert Einstein
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

Despite this, Einstein was definitely not an atheist, since he spoke out against being categorized as such:

Quote from: Albert Einstein
In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.

Quote from: Albert Einstein
I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things.

Einstein's failure to understand the motives of God are the result of his incorrect assumption that God intended this universe as His ultimate perfect creation. Einstein could not get past the moral problems that are present in our universe. He assumed, as most atheists do, that a personal God would only create a universe which is both good morally and perfect physically.

Einstein didn't seem to understand that one could not choose between good and evil if evil did not exist. It's amazing that such a brilliant man could not understand such a simple logical principle. This isn't an attack on his intelligence; this is but an examination of his stance (concerning both the natural and supernatural) and how it's been misused by atheists such as yourself. You could learn a lesson from him (emphasis added):

Quote from: Albert Einstein
I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

Quote from: Albert Einstein
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

Quote from: Albert Einstein
Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious.

It's about time we put an end to the myth that Einstein was an atheist, because he wasn't.

Quote from: Albert Einstein
I am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.

More to come. Or, in your words, "just the fucking beginning".
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 11:37:38 pm by GenesisOne »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #553 on: May 29, 2010, 05:09:36 am »
Your conclusions do not follow from your evidence. And you can quote me on that.

tushantin

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #554 on: May 29, 2010, 11:01:08 am »
Actually, J, it does. I fail to understand why you can't see it.

Hah, I knew Albert was the kinda guy who couldn't differentiate between shampoo and soap, but right now, despite some of his flaws, I respect him more than I ever have in my life. *bows to the great genius*

Quote from: Study in Scarlet
"From a drop of water," said the writer, "a logician could infer the possibility of an Atlantic or a Niagara without having seen or heard of one or the other. So all life is a great chain, the nature of which is known whenever we are shown a single link of it."

Quote from: Study in Scarlet - Sherlock Holmes
One's ideas must be as broad as Nature if they are to interpret Nature

Quote from: Study in Scarlet - Watson
His ignorance was as remarkable as his knowledge
Haha true for every human, actually. The more we know, the more we THINK we know, and thus there's not much we actually know.

Quote from: William Shakespeare
The fool thinks himself to be wise, but the wise  man knows himself to be a fool

Quote from: Study in Scarlet - Sherlock Holmes
When a fact appears to be opposed to a long train of deductions, it invariably proves to be capable of bearing some other interpretation.

Quote from: Study in Scarlet - Sherlock Holmes
I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it.

Quote from: Rancho - 3 Idiots
I wasn't teaching you engineering sir, that you know better than me. I was teaching you .. How to teach.

Quote from: 3 Idiots
Rancho: You know, our hearts fear a lot. So at times we gotta convince them with a little pat, saying, "Don't worry, mate, all is well".
Raju: And that's gonna solve everything?
Rancho: Nah, but that gives us the courage to deal with it.

Quote from: 3 Idiots
Rancho: Pursue excellence, and success will follow, pants down

Quote
Mark Twain: In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards

Quote
Karl Kraus:Education is a crutch with which the foolish attack the wise to prove that they are not idiots

Quote from: 3 Idiots
Farhan Qureshi: [after finding out Rancho topped their exam] That day we learned, when your friend flops, you feel bad. When he tops, you feel even worse

Quote from: 3 Idiots
Big dilemma; support your friend, or wipe tears off the eyes of your friend's mother. Then we thought -- forget about it, just concentrate on the food.