Author Topic: The Ice Age: A scientific inconsistency?  (Read 5367 times)

yujinishuge

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2008, 01:09:59 am »


Oh, and your original statement of "nothing surviving a 65 M year ice age" is incorrect.

That was figurative.  I didn't mean absolutely nothing, I meant most terrestrial species.

Thought

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2008, 12:25:16 pm »
Small note, but we don't know if the map we see in Chrono Trigger is the entire world or not. We assume it is, but just as there are probably more people than we ever see in any given time period (else inbreeding would be a problem), there could be a lot more land that we don't see.

As for a planet-wide Ice age lasting 64,988,000 years...  maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Climate cycles in the real world don't last that long, so it could very well have had numerous other ice ages during that time period. However, even if not, an ice age doesn't prevent any life, but it does limit it. During "summer" months, some regions might thaw enough to produce plant life, allowing some animals to survive. The Zealeans were familiar with the oceans, so fish could provide significant food resources, etc.

It isn't that people couldn't survive an ice age, it is just a tough existence.

yujinishuge

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2008, 12:43:15 pm »
Quote
Small note, but we don't know if the map we see in Chrono Trigger is the entire world or not. We assume it is, but just as there are probably more people than we ever see in any given time period (else inbreeding would be a problem), there could be a lot more land that we don't see.

Quite possibly yes.  It also doesn't make sense that when you fly north, you show up on the south side of the map.  East to West makes sense.  But when you fly to the north pole, you don't show up in antarctica seconds later.

Quote
As for a planet-wide Ice age lasting 64,988,000 years...  maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Climate cycles in the real world don't last that long, so it could very well have had numerous other ice ages during that time period.
That was my point...

Quote
However, even if not, an ice age doesn't prevent any life, but it does limit it. During "summer" months, some regions might thaw enough to produce plant life, allowing some animals to survive.
  There would also be some places near the equator that were still tropical and plant life abundant.  

Quote
The Zealeans were familiar with the oceans, so fish could provide significant food resources, etc.

I'm not debating that. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 02:30:43 pm by yujinishuge »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2008, 02:02:21 pm »
On the contrary, it can make sense to fly to the north of the map, but then be in the south. Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The world map can be seen as a standard map, but also as a globe. Surely with this setup you just need to compare both and notice how is it possible.

Dark Serge

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2008, 02:25:26 pm »
Small note, but we don't know if the map we see in Chrono Trigger is the entire world or not. We assume it is, but just as there are probably more people than we ever see in any given time period (else inbreeding would be a problem), there could be a lot more land that we don't see.

As for a planet-wide Ice age lasting 64,988,000 years...  maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Climate cycles in the real world don't last that long, so it could very well have had numerous other ice ages during that time period. However, even if not, an ice age doesn't prevent any life, but it does limit it. During "summer" months, some regions might thaw enough to produce plant life, allowing some animals to survive. The Zealeans were familiar with the oceans, so fish could provide significant food resources, etc.

It isn't that people couldn't survive an ice age, it is just a tough existence.

That would violate the image of the planet globe we see at the very end of CT. It looks like Zenan covers most of the globe. Then again, El Nido could be somewhere on the other side we can't see. It should be there, otherwise it's in conflict with the CC globe, where we can also vaguely determine El Nido instead but not Zenan.

yujinishuge

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2008, 02:40:08 pm »
On the contrary, it can make sense to fly to the north of the map, but then be in the south. Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The world map can be seen as a standard map, but also as a globe. Surely with this setup you just need to compare both and notice how is it possible.

It's not possible for the north pole and south pole to be right next to each other by definition, and no I have not played final fantasy 8. 

I guess it's a matter of projection.  If say the top of the map isn't really north, and the bottom isn't south, then I suppose it is possible.  however that creates other problems, as the center of the map and the outer edges would all be the equator, yet when we fly east west, the latitude on the map does not change.

dan0211

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2008, 02:41:37 pm »
The Chrono world had multiple ice ages.

Just as it was with "yujinishuge" so shall it be with you.

Simply put, back it up or take it down. The choice is yours.
To quote the Wikipedia article on the ice age, "There have been at least four major ice ages in the Earth's past". We never see that multi millon year gap between these two ages, and probably never will see it, who's to say that like Earth it didn't suffer numerous ice ages before the one which existed at the time of Zeal. The Zeal ice age and the one which is beginning in Ayla's time after Lavos' arrival could easily be seperate ice ages.

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2008, 02:46:07 pm »
Wikipedia is not a credible source. Try again.

yujinishuge

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2008, 02:57:53 pm »
Wikipedia is not a credible source. Try again.

Oh please...

The information that he's presenting (that multiple ice ages have occured in Earth's history) aren't at all incredible.  Nobody disputes that multiple ice ages have happened, except maybe creationists and crustal slippage theory advocates.



If the ice age was merely caused by the debris from the lavos collision blocking out the sun, then it makes no sense whatsoever that the ice age lasted that long.  If Lavos's presence (something we don't have on real Earth) made the ice age, then why does it suddenly stop in 12000 BC?  Cuz of the fall of Zeal?  What does that have to do with anything?

Thought

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2008, 03:25:09 pm »
That would violate the image of the planet globe we see at the very end of CT. It looks like Zenan covers most of the globe. Then again, El Nido could be somewhere on the other side we can't see. It should be there, otherwise it's in conflict with the CC globe, where we can also vaguely determine El Nido instead but not Zenan.

Take a look at the image of the planet-globe that we see at the very end of CC. Let me know if you still maintain such a position. Here, have a link if you would rather be quick about things: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/The_Entity.html

El Nido is a small archepelego. It could not cover half the planet, and it certainly isn't on par with the Zenan mainland. The planets are nice images, but utterly useless.

dan0211

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2008, 03:28:14 pm »
Even though that fact stands, the facts of multiple ice ages is indisputable. Whether or not Wikipeida is a credible source the fact still stands. I have to agree with yujinishuge. If Lavos, a creature around the same size of the domes, if not smaller could create a 65 million year ice age with just his crash landing, then the meteorite that created the Gulf of Mexico which is thousands of times the size of Lavos, which by chance occurred 65 million years ago, would have also created an ice age, which by that logic would mean that it would still be effect today. Do you see blocked out skies, hundreds of miles of ice covering UK, most of the USA, frozen oceans surrounding use northen hemisphere dwellers?

If Lavos used his powers to create the ice age, why would he ever end it, all life would have survived perfectly fine in frozen climates for millions of years by that logic. If they could survive that long why not till the day Lavos surfaces in 1999AD?

yujinishuge

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2008, 03:37:27 pm »
On the contrary, it can make sense to fly to the north of the map, but then be in the south. Have you ever played Final Fantasy VIII? The world map can be seen as a standard map, but also as a globe. Surely with this setup you just need to compare both and notice how is it possible.

there are two possibilities for video game like map projections..



In this projection, if you fly north, it makes no sense for you to end up in antarctica.  But that's exactly what would happen if this were a video game map.



In this projection, the flying north south problem is fixed, but now, flying east to west can make you miss entire continents that you shouldn't be missing (fly west from California, end up in Maryland, without hitting Asia or Africa)

Video game maps are impossible.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 03:41:57 pm by yujinishuge »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2008, 04:06:40 pm »
I still think FFVIII can explain the map thing because unlike most games, it does uses a spherical map.

But to understand the concept of game maps, picture the CT map on a piece of paper. Now, join each of the four corners toguether. While the result may not end up spherical like a planet, it does have geographical sense to the game map (north and south joins, west and east too, and you can quickly travel from one corner to the other).

yujinishuge

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2008, 04:35:07 pm »
I still think FFVIII can explain the map thing because unlike most games, it does uses a spherical map.

But to understand the concept of game maps, picture the CT map on a piece of paper. Now, join each of the four corners toguether. While the result may not end up spherical like a planet, it does have geographical sense to the game map (north and south joins, west and east too, and you can quickly travel from one corner to the other).

Done, and this merely creates more probems.  Sure, the corners are now easily connected, but north and south do not join unless they are close to the corners.  In the meridian (at the half way point of the paper), you travel north till you hit the top of the map, then to continually fly in what would be the same direction on a globe, your course would be altered, making you fly towards the corners.  Try it yourself, and remember that since the video game map is a rectangle, when you connect the corners, your paper looks somewhat diamond (rhombus) shaped.  fly to a peak on the diamond.  do you get transported to an opposite peak?  No, you would go to the other side, following perpendicular to the folds of the paper. use a pen and draw lines if you dont' see what I am getting at.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Planet wide Ice age for 64,988,000 years?
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2008, 04:43:36 pm »
Then I guess that wasn't the answer.