Author Topic: Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams  (Read 2446 times)

Dark Serge

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Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams
« on: November 27, 2008, 11:24:34 am »
Schala talks in the CC ending how all dreams eventually return to Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams. Anyone know more about this? Did they just throw it in randomly to sound interesting? Or could it be an actual place? Is there a possible relationship between this place and the Dream Devourer? Maybe it's the home of the Dream creatures Masa, Mune, and Doreen?

Wikipedia says that Zurvan means time in Avestan language.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 11:29:14 am by Dark Serge »

V_Translanka

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Re: Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2008, 11:58:20 am »
I'll let you off on not finding this one since it was tucked away in part of the Real World Influences article of the Compendium, but I'll quote it here for ya...

Zurvan

Zurvan/Zervan is ancient Persian for "Infinite Time" and could be used as a euphamism for "End of Time". More comes from http://www.themystica.com/mythical-folk/~articles/t/time_and_the_zurvan_myth.html, to whom we are indebted.

The specific concept of time in both Iran and India is described as being composed of three successive or connecting phases: the succession of events (infinite time); the wearing away or erosion of beings, their transformation and death; and their greater or lesser renewal according to the prevailing concept of time as cyclic or linear (finite time). Such a concept, although philosophic, harmoniously connects two types of myth: first is the myth of the creation of the world in three phrases, the universal creation of good and evil; the intermingling of the two forces; and the separation and the final triumph of good. The second type of myth, proceeding Zoroastrianism, is divided into epochs, where each epoch is corrupted but is turned back by one of the three sons of Zoroaster born of a virgin who bathed in a lake where the father's seed was preserved. The first myth stems more from a moral concept; whereas the second from the physical concepts of erosion and degeneration, and the fusion of the two is natural. In India, the second dominated, while in Iran, it was the first minus much explanation for the existence of evil since it existed before the creation of the world (Grimal 195).

Perhaps the myth of Zurvan (Time) can help to explain Zoroaster's basic concept of his religion, Zoroastrianism. The concept is of good constantly in combat with evil; Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainya in a continual struggle. In the myth, Zurvan , through the supreme god, has been offering sacrifices for a thousand years in order to obtain a son. In the end, when he doubts the efficacy of his actions Angr Mainya is conceived as a result of the father's doubt while Ahira Mazda comes from the merits of the sacrifices. While still in Time's androgynous womb Angra Mainya realizes the first to be born enjoys the privileges of kingship, so he hastens to enter the world first before his twin brother. Zurvan, with his plans thwarted, can only wait with the assurance that in the end good would prevail (Grimal).

The myth of Zurvan appears to answer previously purposed questions: in the initial paragraph it was stated that Iran held to the first myth accounting for the creation of the world without much explanation of the existence of evil that existed before the world's creation. This raises the first question, why did Iran, particularly Zoroaster, hold so steadfastly to this myth. The second question which the Zurvan myth seems to answer is how or why Zoroaster was so certain the twins would be constant combatants; Zoroaster confirms his certainty of this in his teaching that Ahura Mazda, through his wisdom, knew if he became Creator and fashioned the world, then the Hostile Spirit would attack it because it was good, and it would become a battleground for the two forces, but in the end he, God, would win the great struggle there and be able to destroy evil, and establish a universe which would be wholly good forever (Boyce 21).

The answers to both questions seem to rest upon the Zurvan myth itself and both answers seem to merge into one: Zoroaster, knowing the myth, believed evil did exist before the creation of the world since he gives no description of the origin of the two forces; for him, they always seemed to exist, and this was the way he explained evil in the world. This can be observed both from the myth and his teaching. In the myth the Hostile Spirit, Angra Mainya, conceived from doubt was hostile by nature before birth. Zoroaster's teaching only emphasizes this "Ahura Mazda, through his wisdom, knew if he became Creator and fashioned the world, then the Hostile Spirit would attack it because it was good, and it would become a battleground for the two forces…" Ahura Mazda knew, from this statement, that if he became Creator and fashioned the world, meaning this was prior to the creation of the world, that the Hostile Spite, evil by nature, would attack it, the world, because it was good, and it would become the battleground for the two forces. Simply, Zoroaster believed and taught that the two combatant forces of good and evil which existed before the creation of the world would continue their battle within the world, which also aided his explanation of the evil that existed in the world. His further teaching was that good would finally conquer evil. A.G.H.

Sources:

   1. Boyce, Mary, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, New York, Routledge, 2002
   2. Grimal, Pierre, Larousse World Mythology, Secaucus, New Jersey, Chartwell Books, 1965

~

Zurvan also bears a resemblance to Aboriginal "Dreamtime." From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime :

The Dreamtime is the central, unifying theme in Australian Aboriginal mythology. The Dreamtime, also called the Dreaming, consists of four aspects: The beginning of all things; the life and influence of the ancestors; the way of life and death; and sources of power in life. Dreamtime consists of all four of these aspects at the same time because it is a condition beyond time and space where all things exist at once.

Aboriginal people call Dreaming the all-at-once time because they experience it as the past, present, and future co-existing. The anthropologist and historian, Professor W.H. Stanner called it the everywhen. This does not mean that they did not have a concept of linear time, but they considered the everywhen of the Dreaming to be objective, whilst linear time they considered a subjecive creation of wakeful consciousness of one's own lifetime. This is in the reverse of the European concept which views dreams as subjective and linear time is considered objective. The condition that is Dreamtime is met when the tribal members live according to tribal rules and traditions and are initiated through rituals and the hearing of tribal myths.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 11:59:55 am by V_Translanka »

Dark Serge

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Re: Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2008, 01:31:11 pm »
Yeah I was more wondering what role it plays / could play in the Chrono series. It's an interesting article though.

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2008, 01:31:48 pm »
Here's to the possibility that it becomes a location in a future game.

As to it being the home of Masa, Mune, and the other people of the Dream Species, I consider it plausible, but not completely possible. It is, however, possible enough for me to support it. :)

Feldschlacht IV

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Re: Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 11:15:12 pm »
It's certainly possible for it to be a future concept or location, but for now it just seems to be end game babble.

Chrono'99

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Re: Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2008, 12:53:35 pm »
Most names and elements from Zeal were borrowed from Persian or Iranian mythology, and Zurvan is no exception.

One theory concerning Zurvan is that it's part of the religion of the Enlightened Ones.