A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

[Sentenal]

And one question that I always wanted to know the answer to....Who rescued Melchoir from Mt.Woe in the original timeline....before crono and co. rescued him?

Simply put, no one.  In the original Timeline, the Prophet was not there, so he wasn't exiled.

[DBoruta]

There was an original timeline where Crono and co never time traveled. The entity supposively created the gate at Leene Square to start off their adventure. Impossible for the Gurus to do that.

Again, you're stating the obvious (the comment about the original timeline) and trying to use that for an argument - what you're saying is not going to hold up in backing up your argument.  The "entity" may have created the gate at Leene Square to start off the events, but what we do know is that it was based off of the pendant reacting with the telepod.  That was the catalyst, although the exact method of how it happened is unknown.

 

He was still working on everything when you meet him the first time.

He's working on inputing his memories into the Nu when Crono and co. first meet him - that is all that is revealed.  When exactly the Wings of Time was finished is not known.  

Like I said, its not indictive to the Gurus.
65,000,000bc- Has to do with Lavos. Nothing with Gurus.
12,000bc- Has to do with Lavos. One of the most important events in history.
600ad- Has nothing to do with Gurus, just has something to do with Magus, and Lavos.
1000ad- Has something to do with Melchior, but lets face it. It just helps out, rather than guide. Has to do with Crono, and therefore Lavos.
1999ad- Has something to do with Lavos.
2300ad- Has something to do with Belthasar, and Lavos.

Except, you just proved my point without realizing it.  65,000,000 B.C. is when Lavos fell.  The Gurus studied Lavos, and at some point they must have investigated its origins.  600 A.D. has to do with Magus, who is Janus, and Lavos.  We know that the Guru of Reason knew that Lavos was summoned by Magus in 600 A.D. - whether he also knew Magus was Janus is uncertain.  The fact that Lavos did something in 600 A.D. by being summoned is of significance to the Guru of Reason.  The rest I'm not even going to comment on, as you've pretty much proved my point that the Gurus appear within these time periods outside of 12,000 B.C.  Really, this can't be taken as just coincidence.  

I think Melchior was the most truthful of all the Gurus. He didn't buy it because of what he said. Obviously, it was just as important to Marle, more so that Melchior.

The problem here is he'll say it even if Crono tries to sell it to him without Marle around.   You were basing your argument upon Marle being there and her expressing its importance to her.  Furthermore, Melchior initially wanted to buy the pendant even when Marle was around - it wasn't until he realized it was the pendant he had made that he decided against either buying it or persuading Marle to sell it to him.  The pendant's significance to Marle is of no importance.  

The pillars of light didn't lead directly to the day where Zeal was destroyed. The bucket lead directly to the Day of Lavos.

The pillar did lead to a time almost immediately before Zeal was destroyed.  When Crono & co. reach Zeal for the first time, the Ocean Palace is nearly completed.  

The Gurus never finished their work in Zeal. Magus summoned Lavos because he was a powerful Wizard. It was via the use of Magic that they made contact with Lavos. None of this gives any of them the power to create gates.

You're right - the Gurus didn't finish their work in Zeal, but that does not change the fact that they were working on it.   It's still up for debate how Magus summoned Lavos.  I will give you that he used magic, but the question still remains as to how that magic was used to summon Lavos.   I don't believe your argument that the Zeal made contact with Lavos purely through magic.  It's not fully known just how Lavos was discovered during that time period.  There are two things you are also failing to take into account here:
1) The Wings of Time was eventually completed and was able to time-travel.  The mechanism for its time travel capability is unkown, but it was based upon the Guru of Reason's research.  
2) Lavos could create gates, and we have seen that the pendant also can  create gates or other temporal distortions.  

If he had access to the Epoch (meaning it was finished) give me a good reason why he would have still gone insane.

What you are not considering is the possibility that completing the Wings of Time was part of the plan to change the planet's future.  Had the Guru of Reason not completed the Wings of Time, or had he not decided to even work on it, he still would have gone insane in 2300 A.D.

[Theicedragon]

This theory does deserve Major Props, but I have to concur that it doesn't exactly work

65,000,000 BC and 600 AD have nothing to do with ANY of the Gurus, and all the time periods all bear significant life changing memories to the Entity. The Gurus, none of them, fit this description. No human in the series does, except MAYBE Schala, but even that's stretching it. So that leaves Lavos, the Planet, and possibly Spekkio.

All the time periods have lots of significance to the Gurus. Let me explain....

65,000,000 BC- Lavos arrives, which, in 12,000BC, causes the Queen of  Zeal to go mad. Basically the cause of everyones problem on the planet.
And Dreamstone is there

12,000 BC- The start of your problems if you are the Gurus. Queen Zeal tries to extract power from Lavos, resulting in all three of them getting sent to different eras, janus to 600 AD, and Schala......well we know what happens to her.

600 AD-Janus is sent back in time, whom then tries to summon Lavos on his own. Which means Janus is powerful as hell. The Red Knife(Masamune) surfaces.  They meet another worthy adventurer to help on quest. Find Rainbow Shell, power up masamune.

1000 AD- Three teenagers with hidden powers are about to go on a trip through time. they meet Melchoir, he repairs Masamune. End up in future to see the devastation that Lavos will unleash upon the planet, and decide to do something about it.  Also get sent to end of time to meet one of the gurus

2400AD- world is dying. no hope for future.  Belthasar is working on plans to change said future.  Making time machine to go back and change history.   Shut down Mother Brain.  Find Robo

End of Time- Meet Gaspar, unlock magic potential, visit other time eras, go to day of lavos.  

If Im the Gurus, every on of these time periods hold significance to me, even if they weren't the entity.

[Sentenal]

All those time periods have significance to any possible entity.  It is NOT indictative to the Gurus.

Again, you're stating the obvious (the comment about the original timeline) and trying to use that for an argument - what you're saying is not going to hold up in backing up your argument. The "entity" may have created the gate at Leene Square to start off the events, but what we do know is that it was based off of the pendant reacting with the telepod. That was the catalyst, although the exact method of how it happened is unknown.

That Gate was not originally there.  In the original timeline, Marle still had the pendant.  Lucca still made the Telepod.  Crono still meet Marle.  And yet there was no time traveling there.  What could be the only difference?  The gate.  The Guru's do not have the ability to create gates.

Except, you just proved my point without realizing it. 65,000,000 B.C. is when Lavos fell. The Gurus studied Lavos, and at some point they must have investigated its origins. 600 A.D. has to do with Magus, who is Janus, and Lavos. We know that the Guru of Reason knew that Lavos was summoned by Magus in 600 A.D. - whether he also knew Magus was Janus is uncertain. The fact that Lavos did something in 600 A.D. by being summoned is of significance to the Guru of Reason. The rest I'm not even going to comment on, as you've pretty much proved my point that the Gurus appear within these time periods outside of 12,000 B.C. Really, this can't be taken as just coincidence.

...
No.  I said that all those time periods are significant regardless of who the entity is.  Its not indictative that the Guru's are the entity.

1) The Wings of Time was eventually completed and was able to time-travel. The mechanism for its time travel capability is unkown, but it was based upon the Guru of Reason's research.

...Which was not completed in Zeal.

2) Lavos could create gates, and we have seen that the pendant also can create gates or other temporal distortions.

I'm sorry, but when did the pendant create a gate?  I remmber the pendant reacting with the telepod to open an already existing gate, but thats it.

What you are not considering is the possibility that completing the Wings of Time was part of the plan to change the planet's future. Had the Guru of Reason not completed the Wings of Time, or had he not decided to even work on it, he still would have gone insane in 2300 A.D.

What is the reason he went insane?  He was teleported to a destroyed future.  He was alone.  The world was destroyed.  He had paradice, and then was stripped from it.  If he had the epoch, magically, he can now be with people he knew, or be at places that arn't as depressing.  He would not have gone insane if the epoch was finished and he used it.

[Elvis_Maximus]

Unless.... they just told you he was insane and really he wasn't!!!!!11oneoneeleven *conpsiracy alert*




Really, I like the theory.. but I just don't see the evidence that supports it.. then again there isn't much evidence supporting any real conclusions about the entity... so yours is as good as the next IMO ^.^

[DBoruta]

Sentenal:

All those time periods have significance to any possible entity. It is NOT indictative to the Gurus.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.  I think we've said all that can be said in favor of each of our sides and made little progress if any.  

That Gate was not originally there. In the original timeline, Marle still had the pendant. Lucca still made the Telepod. Crono still meet Marle. And yet there was no time traveling there. What could be the only difference? The gate. The Guru's do not have the ability to create gates.

I realize there was an original timeline - I understand that.  What I am saying is that there is the possibility, based on the information we have about the Gurus, what they worked on, and what they studied, that they could have been at least partially responsible for the events that transpired in Chrono Trigger.  

.. No. I said that all those time periods are significant regardless of who the entity is. Its not indictative that the Guru's are the entity.

Except, the evidence you gave to support your conclusion did also support mine.  That was the whole reason I went and explained the reasoning behind how and why the evidence you listed does support my conclusions.  

Quote:
1) The Wings of Time was eventually completed and was able to time-travel. The mechanism for its time travel capability is unkown, but it was based upon the Guru of Reason's research.

...Which was not completed in Zeal.

And it didn't need to be completed in Zeal - I thought I made that clear.  What do you not understand about that?  

I'm sorry, but when did the pendant create a gate? I remmber the pendant reacting with the telepod to open an already existing gate, but thats it.

The existence of that gate prior to the pendant reacting with the telepod is up for debate, in my opinion.  I would support the side that says the pendant created or helped create the gate.  The pendant also helped create a gate on Death Peak in conjunction with the Time Egg.  In Chrono Cross, if I remember correctly, Kid used the pendant to call Serge across dimensions.  

What is the reason he went insane? He was teleported to a destroyed future. He was alone. The world was destroyed. He had paradice, and then was stripped from it. If he had the epoch, magically, he can now be with people he knew, or be at places that arn't as depressing. He would not have gone insane if the epoch was finished and he used it.

Really, you're losing me here.  Go back and read over what I wrote again, seriously.  What I wrote and what you are responding to are two different things.  

Elvis_Maximus:

Really, I like the theory.. but I just don't see the evidence that supports it.. then again there isn't much evidence supporting any real conclusions about the entity... so yours is as good as the next IMO ^.^

Well, I'm glad you like the theory, and the evidence that supports it is in the game itself, namely from quotes from the Gurus and actions the Guru of Reason took.  The problem, which you hit the nail on the head with, is that there isn't enough information in the game to come to a definitive conclusion about who or what the entity really is - all we can do is theorize possibilities.

[V_Translanka]

Okay, since this was a new Entity theory, I didn't bother to read the whole first page and instead skimmed over the second...From what I take, someone thinks that the Gurus are the Entity somehow??? Well, the one thing I've always had against any Entity theory that claims it's a living person is the whole fact of the reason that the idea of the Entity was brought up for in the first place...

Robo: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not be responsible for the Gates.

Marle: What do you mean?

Robo: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all this. The different events over time that we have witnessed. It is almost as if some entity wanted to relive its past.

[DBoruta]

Okay, since this was a new Entity theory, I didn't bother to read the whole first page and instead skimmed over the second...From what I take, someone thinks that the Gurus are the Entity somehow???

Wow.  You didn't even bother reading the first page, which actually has the proposed theory?  How can you make any argument or conversation if you didn't even read to find out what's being talked about?  

Well, the one thing I've always had against any Entity theory that claims it's a living person is the whole fact of the reason that the idea of the Entity was brought up for in the first place...

Quote:
Robo: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not be responsible for the Gates.

Marle: What do you mean?

Robo: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all this. The different events over time that we have witnessed. It is almost as if some entity wanted to relive its past.

If you had read the first page, you would have seen that this was also addressed, although Frog's quotes from the campfire scene were used to make the argument instead of Robo's, but it is still the same argument.

[Sentenal]

Except, the evidence you gave to support your conclusion did also support mine. That was the whole reason I went and explained the reasoning behind how and why the evidence you listed does support my conclusions.

My 'evidence' was that the events are important, REGARDLESS of who the entity is.  It would be important if it was the Gurus, it would be important if it was the Planet.  Therefore, discard it.

I realize there was an original timeline - I understand that. What I am saying is that there is the possibility, based on the information we have about the Gurus, what they worked on, and what they studied, that they could have been at least partially responsible for the events that transpired in Chrono Trigger.

But do you realize that its not possible for the Guru's to create that gate there, and change history to start their quest?  Gates don't form for no reason.

Really, you're losing me here. Go back and read over what I wrote again, seriously. What I wrote and what you are responding to are two different things.

Listen, I asked a question.  I asked to explain why he would still go insane, and you dodged it.

[Mystik3eb]

But do you realize that its not possible for the Guru's to create that gate there, and change history to start their quest?  Gates don't form for no reason.

Why isn't it possible? How is it possible for anyone/anything to create a gate there? I don't see how's it's impossible for the Gurus to do so.

Listen, I asked a question.  I asked to explain why he would still go insane, and you dodged it.

It might've been an act, as someone already said. I can't really think of any other reason, though.

[Sentenal]

Why isn't it possible? How is it possible for anyone/anything to create a gate there? I don't see how's it's impossible for the Gurus to do so.

The Planet is a God-Like entity in CC.  Its possible for it to create gates.  Lavos is a God-like entity.  It does create gates.  When do we see the Guru's with the power to create gates at a place where they are no currently at (Melchior was not at the telepod)?  There is no such instance.  We see the Gurus as men.  Mortals.

It might've been an act, as someone already said. I can't really think of any other reason, though.

An act?  Yeah, thats likely.

[V_Translanka]

Wow. You didn't even bother reading the first page, which actually has the proposed theory? How can you make any argument or conversation if you didn't even read to find out what's being talked about?

Because I assumed that you would not be able to counter that...You're not the first person to make an Entity arguement after all (there are still nutbags at GameFAQs who still spout on about Alfador...whether they're joking or not...it's no longer funny...if it ever was...).

A third argument against this theory is that Frog's quotes from the camfire scene, " 'Tis true that mortals do relive their most profound memories before death claimeth them," and "Lavos playeth an integral role in the fortunes of this Entity..." imply that the planet is the "Entity", not the Gurus.

One possible answer is that the Gurus had no choice but to tailor the events they could plan, or even just tailor the gates to main points in the history between Lavos and the planet. After all, the whole point would be to save the planet from the destruction Lavos would bring upon it. Also, Lavos played a major role in the lives of each of the Gurus, and at least two of the three Gurus did study Lavos in detail.

And, as I read, you haven't. Nothing you say makes it so that it's the Gurus who are dying or reliving their memories. Thus, teh Entity...not the Gurus. So, yes, it was addressed, but there was no good supporting evidence for your Guru cause there that I read.

[Zaperking]

 We see the Gurus as men.  Mortals.

*Points at Crono and co* They're mortals... But there's obviously a reason why they survived their encounter.

As for making gates, Gaspar had a time egg to make one. Lucca had one later after she figured out how Gaspar did it. But had she not ever seen the Chrono Trigger, she'd never know how either.

Oh, and I recently saw a quote in the game that said that Lavos was responsible for Belthasar being sent to 2400AD, but I was more interested in fighting over a quote on how Kid and Serge won't get married directly after the game (this was on GameFAQs).

And yes, The Planet is almost God-like in CC. As for CT, it is not. Though, I think there is a difference between the planet in CT and the one in CC. Which makes me think that it may be the entity of the planet in CT, and the planet as in the living force itself in CC. I mean, the planet seemed sensible and nice to humans, and all of a sudden it hates them after they saved it. No good bastard.

Now in terms of God-like, FATE and the Dragon God (Lunar Dragon I guess) are also almost- Godlike. FATE with the flame and the Dragon God with Harle.

[Chrono'99]

And yes, The Planet is almost God-like in CC. As for CT, it is not. Though, I think there is a difference between the planet in CT and the one in CC. Which makes me think that it may be the entity of the planet in CT, and the planet as in the living force itself in CC. I mean, the planet seemed sensible and nice to humans, and all of a sudden it hates them after they saved it. No good bastard.

The Planet was always on mankind's side. In CT, Crono defeating Lavos was its "dream". And in CC, Serge defeating the Time Devourer is also its dream (last chapter's name). It always supported the humans as we always play a human who save the world. The Polis War was just an accident, the planet was forced by Belthasar/Chronopolis/Lavos to bring something to oppose Chronopolis, but not the entire humanity.

Only the Dragon God said that the Planet hated mankind. And the Dragon God is the Time Devourer in disguise... Azala himself/herself stated in CT that the Planet chose the humans instead of the Reptites.

[Zaperking]

No, Azala said "could have heavens have truely sided with the apes?". Not the planet. The planet never sided with them, it was thanks to Lavos that the reptites died. The Planet probably adapted to them, but still hated them in a way. I mean, really, the Lunar Dragon has no other objective but to take revenge on behalf of the Planet.

BTW, the Lunar Dragon isn't the TD in disguise. The TD is in the DBT. The Dragon God and Harle's combination secured a spot in the dimension. I thought that Harle herself was going to use the flame to bring back their body. But Harle is real, even if the Dragon God is not. Her combination and their's should have reproduced the body back anyway.