A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

[DBoruta]

I have been reading the Entity theory posed by Zeality, et al, and while I do agree it is a very plausible theory, I would like to propose another possibility that I don't feel has been adequately explored.  This possibility is based off of quotes from Chrono Trigger as well as the driving force behind Chrono Cross.  I am proposing that the "Entity" could be the Gurus of Life, Reason, and Time.  

I came to this possibility after playing Chrono Cross and considering that the Guru of Reason planned out (most of) the events that happened in Chrono Cross.  He even developed a machine which could move freely through time.    As I considered this, I first thought that the Guru of Reason himself may have been the driving force behind Chrono Trigger for a few reasons:

1) He did complete the Epoch, which meant he could have used it before he decided to store it.  
2) He made sealed doors which he knew would eventually be opened as given by this quote:
"To those who opened the door... I am Belthasar, the Guru of Reason.  I once lived in the kingdom of Zeal."

This quote is very important because it implies that he had hoped someone would open the door and had planned accordingly.  This could imply that he was expecting someone to eventually come with the ability to open the sealed door.  For that to happen, they must have been able to  recognize how to open the door, as we know that "dynamite won't even budge it".

From there, I considered the possibility that the Guru of Reason had planned out Chrono Trigger as well as Chrono Cross.  What is interesting is the time periods the gates are placed in - 1000 A.D., the time in which the Guru of Life was sent, 600 A.D., the time period in which Magus (Janus) summons Lavos and as a consequence he and his castle disappear, 2300 A.D., the timeline in which the Guru of Reason resides, 65,000,000 B.C., when Lavos crashes onto the planet, and 12,000 B.C., where it all began for the Gurus and Janus.  Each timeline represents significance to the Gurus, especially the Guru of Reason.  

The more I thought about 1000 A.D., however, the more I was led to reconsider that the Guru of Reason was not the only one who could have been involved, if the Gurus were involved at all.  This quote from the Guru of Life in particular led me to believe so: "Oh, my!  It's...the pendant...!  Er, sorry, but I can't buy that!  It's...far too special!  Keep it safe!"  Why would he say this?  One possibility, and the only conclusion I have been able to reach, is that he had some knowledge of what would eventually transpire.

The End of Time is also very interesting, as the Guru of Time resides there.  Furthermore, there is the possibility that he constructed the structure of the End of Time as Crono and co. see it, since it is implied that there was physically nothing there (except the prospect of Spekkio) before he arrived.  Furthermore, there is a gate in a bucket leading to the Day of Lavos there that appears to have been constructed.  The question  that I posed in my mind, then, was why would it not be a pillar of light like all the other gates?  This gate was special in that it was not meant to be accessed immediately.  Because of this, I was further led to consider the idea that the Guru of Time could have been involved in such a plan as well, especially since he serves as a guide throughout Chrono Trigger.          

Since it is known that the Zeal culture was able to create and study space-time distortions, it is not unreasonable to consider the possibilty that the Gurus could have planned the formation of the gates and the guiding of the events of Crono Trigger.

Some arguments against such a theory also need to be addressed.  

The first, and most compelling argument against the notion that the Gurus were involved in the planning of the events of Chrono Trigger is the gate which appears during the campfire scene.   How did that gate just suddenly form?

Under this proposed theory, there is a possible answer.  The pendant the Gurus made holds considerable power and demonstrated the power to make gates on two other occassions.  The first occassion was the begging of the game when a portal opened when the pendant was exposed to another space-time distortion.  The other time was on Death Peak when the Time Egg was used with the pendant.  It must also be taken into consideration that the pendant was made of dreamstone, as was the Masamune.  The Masamune did react to Frog's emotions on two occasions during Chrono Trigger, and during Chrono Cross it was full of negative emotions/energy.  This gives credit to the possibility that the pendant too could react to emotion.  During the campfire scene, the pendant was in the possession of the heroes, and it was also fully charged with the energy of Lavos, a being which had the power to manipulate space-time.    The pendant itself could have reacted to Lucca's emotions creating a temporary gate.  


Another argument is that at the end of Chrono Trigger, Lucca comments that the "Entity" is at rest.   This supports the planet-entity theory better, does it not?  

I hate to answer questions with questions, but this case it is necessary.  How do we know that Lucca truly knew what she said was true?  Also, could the Gurus not also have been relieved and at rest that their plan worked?  

A third argument against this theory is that Frog's quotes from the camfire scene, " 'Tis true that mortals do relive their most profound memories before death claimeth them," and "Lavos playeth an integral role in the fortunes of this Entity..." imply that the planet is the "Entity", not the Gurus.

One possible answer is that the Gurus had no choice but to tailor the events they could plan, or even just tailor the gates to main points in the history between Lavos and the planet.  After all, the whole point would be to save the planet from the destruction Lavos would bring upon it.  Also, Lavos played a major role in the lives of each of the Gurus, and at least two of the three Gurus did study Lavos in detail.  



I am interested in hearing feedback and other arguments, both in favor of and against this proposed theory.

[Sentenal]

Well, it is true to an extend that Belthasar had plans to fight agianst Lavos.  But as for Belthasar being the entity, I strongly disagree.

Firstly, to say that Belthasar is the entity, he must have had to do something to start off Crono's adventure.  What could he do?  From Zeal, he they didn't know that Lavos would destroy their civilazation and teleport the gurus all over the place.  In 2300, hes INSANE.  He barely even finishs the Epoch in time.  However, the messages he leaves in that Nu, and everything that has to do with that, tie in to the Time Egg.  In that instances, he basically left behind instructions on how to use it.

On the placement of Gates...  They had more to do with imporance to Lavos and the Planet than with the Guru's.  The gates being where they were do not imply Belthasar being the Entity.

On Melchior's words...  It was a special pendant, that he remmbered from Zeal.  Thats why he wouldn't buy it.

Gaspar probably did make the stuctures in the end of time.  Or maybe it was already there.  Regardless, its not indicative that hes part of the Entity trio.  The gate to 1999 was in a bucket because it led to a dangerous time.

Zeal's shiny area was in Magic, no space-time distortions.  Even Belthasar, the only one of the three to deal with time, never finished his work while in Zeal.

But really, why would the Guru's engineer a plan that would involve one of them going insane, another living in isolation, and the third living in isolation and making weapons, a thing which he hates.

The Guru's did play a part in wanted the defeat of Lavos.  But to say they engineered it like something akin to Belthasar in CC is crazy.  Really, I think your reading too much into their lines.

[Tonjevic]

I think, being the Guru of reason, he reasoned that somebody with a pendant would come because, at that point, the Zealians were the only people with the ability to create any time travel devices. And that only the members of the royal family would have done it because they still have thier magic.
It's an interesting angle, but I dont think the gurus engineered the whole thing.

[DBoruta]

Sentenal:

Firstly, to say that Belthasar is the entity, he must have had to do something to start off Crono's adventure. What could he do? From Zeal, he they didn't know that Lavos would destroy their civilazation and teleport the gurus all over the place.

I don't understand where your argument is going with this at all.  You're only stating the obvious that while the Gurus were in Zeal they could not forsee the extent the Ocean Palace disaster would go to.  

In 2300, hes INSANE. He barely even finishs the Epoch in time. However, the messages he leaves in that Nu, and everything that has to do with that, tie in to the Time Egg. In that instances, he basically left behind instructions on how to use it.

By the time Crono & co. reach him he's nearly insane.  What about before then?  Also, we don't know when the Epoch was finished; all we know is that he finished it while in the post-apocalyptic future.  

On the placement of Gates... They had more to do with imporance to Lavos and the Planet than with the Guru's. The gates being where they were do not imply Belthasar being the Entity.

The gates had importance with both - I touched on that already.  The primary importance was with Lavos' relationship to the planet, but the fact that all three of the Gurus appear within these time periods (if you count the End of Time as one of these time periods) cannot be just cast aside as coincidence.

 

On Melchior's words... It was a special pendant, that he remmbered from Zeal. Thats why he wouldn't buy it.

That was my first thought as well when I saw the quote, but then I thought differently after considering it more.  If this pendant was so precious and he had no knowledge as to how it would be used in the events of Chrono Trigger, why wouldn't he have bought it?  It meant a lot to him, and he did make it, so why wouldn't he want to keep it safe and have it to remember Schala?  

Gaspar probably did make the stuctures in the end of time. Or maybe it was already there. Regardless, its not indicative that hes part of the Entity trio. The gate to 1999 was in a bucket because it led to a dangerous time.

Your argument is not convincing enough.  Technically, 12,000 B.C. was a dangerous time too, yet it had a pillar of light instead of being set aside.  Granted, the Day of Lavos was when the world was put into ruin, but Lavos also surfaced and acted similarly in 12,000 B.C.  2300 AD was also a very dangerous time - the world was in ruin and Lavos reigned atop Death Peak while producing offspring.  

Zeal's shiny area was in Magic, no space-time distortions. Even Belthasar, the only one of the three to deal with time, never finished his work while in Zeal.

While in Zeal the Guru of Time studied space-time distortions and worked on the Time Egg; the Guru of Reason worked on a Wings of Time; the Guru of Life studied Lavos.  In 600 A.D. Magus used his powers to summon Lavos.  How he did this has been speculated as Magus attempting to create a space-time distortion to enter Lavos' pocket dimension.  

Here I have listed two solid instances of space-time distortion study and one possible space-time distortion being created by someone from Zeal.  As for how the Guru of Life was able to study Lavos and how the Gurus were able to make the Mammon machine to tap power from Lavos is unknown, but if you think about it, it could have involved some knowledge of space-time distortions there too.    

But really, why would the Guru's engineer a plan that would involve one of them going insane, another living in isolation, and the third living in isolation and making weapons, a thing which he hates.

The question is, why not?  What did any of them have to lose if they did actually go through with this? The Guru of Reason would have gone insane in 2300 A.D. no matter what.  The Guru of Time would have lived in isolation anyway at the End of Time.  The Guru of Life would have lived as either a hermit or a blacksmith in 1000 A.D. anyway.  

I'm beginning to think you are misunderstanding what I was saying and where I am saying the Guru of Reason could have started such a plan.  I am not saying this could have started in 12000 B.C., although technically that is where it started because that is where the Gurus originally were from and it was from there that they were flung against their will across time.  What I was saying or hoping would be inferred was that the Guru of Reason may have used the Wings of Time in 2300 A.D. after it was completed, and things may have gone from there.  

The Guru's did play a part in wanted the defeat of Lavos. But to say they engineered it like something akin to Belthasar in CC is crazy. Really, I think your reading too much into their lines.

The plan created by Belthasar in CC was probably overly elaborate and could (and does to me) appear crazy.  Regardless, the lines I quoted from the Gurus definitely left room for thought as to why they said what they said and how Belthasar knew someone would actually come and open the sealed door in the Keeper's Dome.


Tonjevic:

think, being the Guru of reason, he reasoned that somebody with a pendant would come because, at that point, the Zealians were the only people with the ability to create any time travel devices. And that only the members of the royal family would have done it because they still have thier magic.

While you have a point, the only factor that doesn't really add up here is how someone from Zeal would have known to look for him that far in the future.  Also, it must be realized that while the Guru of Reason was still in Zeal, nobody had achieved time travel yet; he and the Guru of Time were  nearing completion of research on it.

[Mystik3eb]

Frankly, I give major credit to DBoruta. He's got a stronger argument than his opposition has shown, and it's an excellent theory that beats out any other I've seen. Obviously he's put careful thought and consideration into this, and it's well done. He answered all the opposing arguments the way I would've, were I in his shoes.

That said, I have to disagree with the theory. No, I don't have a better theory or idea...but something in my gut tells me we have NO IDEA who the Entity is. I personally think it's something we haven't even been hinted toward by Kato. Or we were hinted, but it's either A) very easy to read incorrectly, or B) Lost In Translation (nyuk nyuk). Or both.

Again, major props to you, DBoruta.

[Zaperking]

Exactally, The Planet and the Entity are most likely seperate beings.

As for Belthasar being crazy. Look at Lucca. She's almost surpassed him, and is younger. That's why Chronopolis said that she is pretty much a "mad genius" in comparison to Belthasar. Don't make Belthasar look bad. He pwns Serge and all. But Schala majorly pwns him.

[Theicedragon]

I also give BIg PROPS to DBoruta. I think that his theory makes you think.  Now if I made a time machine, I think that i would test it even before it was finished, or how would I know that it went back in time?  He easily could have set things up from the future.  Now I have this for you. I don't remember using the pendant to open anything(Like chest or doors) in 12,000BC.  But afterwards, in 600BC and 1000AD you can use it to open chest that happen to contain very useful items.  And in 2400AD, you can use the pendant to open doors.  Who do you think could have done that? I think someone who time travels that knows the person with the pendant will need these items to suceed in their quest would do such a thing.  More than a coincidence to me also.  I couldn't see a little kid that just happens to have the pendant come home with a Fire Vest and a Slasher(or  i think it was a Katana). What I am getting at is that someone carefully put those items there for Crono and co. to find. Belthasar could have done such a thing from his vantage point to help them change the future.

[Elvis_Maximus]

The best part about this theory is it gives a fairly good explanation for the black boxes and doors that somehow magically get scattered around the world.

[Theicedragon]

I also want to add that this theory coould hold up.  Everyone thinks that the entity is one being, but why can't it be a group of people whom act as one towards a common goal.  ex.  A sports team consist of more than one person, but when you talk about your favorite team, you don't speak of it as a single being.  does anybody understand what I'm trying to say?

[Tonjevic]

Maybe the doors and chests were just magically sealed (by whoever) so that people couldnt get into them. The magic of the pendant after it was empowered overpowered these puny magic boxes and doors, rendering them open. But then, who out them there? I think either
a) The royal family was stashing its goods,
b) Peole before the fall of Zeal and the loss of magic were stashing thier goods,
or c) That the gurus DID put them there and your theory has some credit to it.

Personally, I think it was just a little bit of plot that the creators didnt put too much thought into. Its nice to think about it, though.

[Chrono'99]

I also want to add that this theory coould hold up.  Everyone thinks that the entity is one being, but why can't it be a group of people whom act as one towards a common goal.  ex.  A sports team consist of more than one person, but when you talk about your favorite team, you don't speak of it as a single being.  does anybody understand what I'm trying to say?

You don't refer to a sport team as "someone" though.

[DBoruta]

But afterwards, in 600BC and 1000AD you can use it to open chest that happen to contain very useful items. And in 2400AD, you can use the pendant to open doors. Who do you think could have done that? I think someone who time travels that knows the person with the pendant will need these items to suceed in their quest would do such a thing.

While I agree that the sealed doors in the future were most likely made by the Guru of Reason, this quote won't let me agree with you about the sealed boxes found in 600 A.D. and 1000 A.D.:  

[Young Man]
   The Queen has sealed the Elemental
   Weapons in the north palace.

   You can see its entrance on the
   northern continent, but no one is
   allowed there.

 [Young Man]
   The door to the north palace is sealed
   with a mysterious energy.
   Even we, the Enlightened Ones, cannot
   open it.


What more, when Crono and co. break the seal to what is left of the North Palace in 1000 A.D., the Nu there presents them with two sealed boxes - one contains a strong elemental weapon (Swallow), and the other contains protective gear (Safe Helmet, if I remember correctly).  These two boxes are identical to the others found in 600 A.D. and 1000 A.D., and at the Truce Inn it is said that the boxes were in the family there for many generations.  What this could mean is that these boxes being scattered throughout the world were remnants of the weapons and armor sealed away by Queen Zeal, and they were recovered after the Ocean Palace disaster, although it is unknown how long after the disaster happened that these boxes were recovered.

[Sentenal]

I don't understand where your argument is going with this at all. You're only stating the obvious that while the Gurus were in Zeal they could not forsee the extent the Ocean Palace disaster would go to.

There was an original timeline where Crono and co never time traveled.  The entity supposively created the gate at Leene Square to start off their adventure.  Impossible for the Gurus to do that.

By the time Crono & co. reach him he's nearly insane. What about before then? Also, we don't know when the Epoch was finished; all we know is that he finished it while in the post-apocalyptic future.

He was still working on everything when you meet him the first time.

The gates had importance with both - I touched on that already. The primary importance was with Lavos' relationship to the planet, but the fact that all three of the Gurus appear within these time periods (if you count the End of Time as one of these time periods) cannot be just cast aside as coincidence.

Like I said, its not indictive to the Gurus.
65,000,000bc- Has to do with Lavos.  Nothing with Gurus.
12,000bc- Has to do with Lavos.  One of the most important events in history.
600ad- Has nothing to do with Gurus, just has something to do with Magus, and Lavos.
1000ad- Has something to do with Melchior, but lets face it.  It just helps out, rather than guide.  Has to do with Crono, and therefore Lavos.
1999ad- Has something to do with Lavos.
2300ad- Has something to do with Belthasar, and Lavos.

These times would be important to any entity figure, regardless of who it is.

That was my first thought as well when I saw the quote, but then I thought differently after considering it more. If this pendant was so precious and he had no knowledge as to how it would be used in the events of Chrono Trigger, why wouldn't he have bought it? It meant a lot to him, and he did make it, so why wouldn't he want to keep it safe and have it to remember Schala?

I think Melchior was the most truthful of all the Gurus.  He didn't buy it because of what he said.  Obviously, it was just as important to Marle, more so that Melchior.

Your argument is not convincing enough. Technically, 12,000 B.C. was a dangerous time too, yet it had a pillar of light instead of being set aside. Granted, the Day of Lavos was when the world was put into ruin, but Lavos also surfaced and acted similarly in 12,000 B.C. 2300 AD was also a very dangerous time - the world was in ruin and Lavos reigned atop Death Peak while producing offspring.

The pillars of light didn't lead directly to the day where Zeal was destroyed.  The bucket lead directly to the Day of Lavos.

While in Zeal the Guru of Time studied space-time distortions and worked on the Time Egg; the Guru of Reason worked on a Wings of Time; the Guru of Life studied Lavos. In 600 A.D. Magus used his powers to summon Lavos. How he did this has been speculated as Magus attempting to create a space-time distortion to enter Lavos' pocket dimension.

Here I have listed two solid instances of space-time distortion study and one possible space-time distortion being created by someone from Zeal. As for how the Guru of Life was able to study Lavos and how the Gurus were able to make the Mammon machine to tap power from Lavos is unknown, but if you think about it, it could have involved some knowledge of space-time distortions there too.

The Gurus never finished their work in Zeal.  Magus summoned Lavos because he was a powerful Wizard.  It was via the use of Magic that they made contact with Lavos.  None of this gives any of them the power to create gates.

I'm beginning to think you are misunderstanding what I was saying and where I am saying the Guru of Reason could have started such a plan. I am not saying this could have started in 12000 B.C., although technically that is where it started because that is where the Gurus originally were from and it was from there that they were flung against their will across time. What I was saying or hoping would be inferred was that the Guru of Reason may have used the Wings of Time in 2300 A.D. after it was completed, and things may have gone from there.

If he had access to the Epoch (meaning it was finished) give me a good reason why he would have still gone insane.

[Theicedragon]

That's where I'm confused.  Lots of people think that the Entity created the gates for crono and co. but I have problems with that.

First lets say that the entity is the planet.  How would the Planet create gates from the End of Time.  I have a hard time believng that the Planet can create gates there to send you to specific times.  I can't fathom the "Planet" being at the end of time.

Second, Gaspar happens to know a lot about whats going on(I know he is the Guru of Time, but those pillars weren't there when he got there)

And one question that I always wanted to know the answer to....Who rescued Melchoir from Mt.Woe in the original timeline....before crono and co. rescued him?

My perspective....Belthasar could have easily teamed up with the other Gurus to plan for crono and co. to stop Lavos. I understand that the pillars were important times to the entity, but why can't they be important to the Gurus also.  every time period in CT would be important to them too if they were the ones orchestrating the whole adventure.

[AuraTwilight]

This theory does deserve Major Props, but I have to concur that it doesn't exactly work

65,000,000 BC and 600 AD have nothing to do with ANY of the Gurus, and all the time periods all bear significant life changing memories to the Entity. The Gurus, none of them, fit this description. No human in the series does, except MAYBE Schala, but even that's stretching it. So that leaves Lavos, the Planet, and possibly Spekkio.