Author Topic: Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT  (Read 15906 times)

GrayLensman

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Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2005, 04:52:41 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
I had questions of this myself, but Zealians apparently had their magic power tied to Lavos/Mamon Machine, or previously the Sun Stone.  Zeal, Dalton, Crono, Magus, etc are apparently "Innate" users, who don't draw on other's powers for magic.  Thats the only way explain why some lost magical ability, and others didn't.  Zealians lost their ability because they had lost the Mamon Machine.  Others didn't, for some reason.

And Spekkio "unlocked" Crono and co's latent magical ability, and taught them to use it.  Its important to realize he didn't give them anything other than the knowledge to use magic.


Also note that the travelers already had magical abilities, like Aura and Slash.  The talent was already there; Spekkio only unlocked the travelers' full potential.  Magic users in Zeal possibly had to undergo similar conditioning.

Zaperking

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Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2005, 12:55:06 am »
Those weren't magic abilities. They were techniques. Slash only has a sprite to make it look windy and lightning innatish. But really if it was real life, Crono would only be swinging a sword around really fast. As for Aura, it's probably like healing water or something. I mean geez, in these games they do have revives and the FF series has Phoenix Downs..

Sentenal

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Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2005, 12:56:41 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
Those weren't magic abilities. They were techniques. Slash only has a sprite to make it look windy and lightning innatish. But really if it was real life, Crono would only be swinging a sword around really fast. As for Aura, it's probably like healing water or something. I mean geez, in these games they do have revives and the FF series has Phoenix Downs..


They actually have elemental battle properties.  Slash does lightning damage, flame toss does fire, etc etc.

Zaperking

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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2005, 05:20:33 am »
Yeah, but flame toss is like lighting fire to petrol and tossing it. It isn't actually getting the power of fire from the universe to attack stuff. Same with slash.

V_Translanka

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Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2005, 11:37:12 am »
So then, instead of Slash being a kind of chi-based attack, you believe that it's more of a sonic boom effect? And also that that's somehow not magical in any way...interesting...>_>

Chrono'99

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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2005, 12:02:07 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
It isn't actually getting the power of fire from the universe to attack stuff. Same with slash.

That's exactly why it's not a powerful fire attack, but it's still a fire attack nevertheless. In the CT world, "fire" is an element, and flames are fire-elemental.

Zaperking

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« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2005, 04:06:40 pm »
It's essentially the element, but it's not fire-elemental magic which summons flames out of no where. It's just like the ice spell and lightning spells that come out of nowhere.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2005, 05:06:01 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
It's essentially the element, but it's not fire-elemental magic which summons flames out of no where. It's just like the ice spell and lightning spells that come out of nowhere.

You're contradicting yourself and the game. Magic is the manipulation of the components of the universe right? Then since fire is one of those elements, producing fire with a safety match is as fire-elemental as casting a fire spell. The only difference is that casting a spell requires a particular skill, but the result is the same (obviously more powerful).

Sentenal

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Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2005, 06:31:55 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Zaperking
It's essentially the element, but it's not fire-elemental magic which summons flames out of no where. It's just like the ice spell and lightning spells that come out of nowhere.

You're contradicting yourself and the game. Magic is the manipulation of the components of the universe right? Then since fire is one of those elements, producing fire with a safety match is as fire-elemental as casting a fire spell. The only difference is that casting a spell requires a particular skill, but the result is the same (obviously more powerful).


Exactly.

Elvis_Maximus

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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2005, 08:59:41 pm »
Even still, the fact that it was "unlocked" indicates to me that it was already there. If it was already there (at least in the travellers) without decaying, I doubt its going to decay afterword.



In regards to the theory about them going back a distance of time, not to a place in time. That pretty much is what I'm saying, but since its a dial it would indicate to me that they could go to other timeperiods as well, they just didn't over the course of the game because, well, those timeperiods didn't matter at that point.



Anyway, even if they can't go back and prevent Poore from getting the elements, they can certainly go forwards or back to get either new, more powerful equipment and help (think: future revolutionaries who would like to change the past) or they can bring people forward in time with them.



My point is not to ask the question of "why didn't they stop it?" (as one person answered... I'm sorry I don't remember names very well -.-), but that there must be a dimension split, it only makes sense.

ShoeMagus

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« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2005, 09:15:03 pm »
Sure Crono was tough. We all can see that. (Zaperking what they meant was that you could beat the game in New game + with just Crono if you accessed the portal.)

But there are ways to kill without openly attacking. Poisons. We can't really know. Perhaps Crono and Marle went into hiding. I mean they did defeat Lavos, true, but no man is invincible. Lavos being one being, they could fight head on. But being overwhelmed by many could royally screw one over.

And next you'll bring up magic. Well magic has its limits. There were MP points used. And while I"m not saying he was in battle and went "Damn out of points." More likely it was a representation of his own energies reaching their exhaustion point.

And finally I'd bring up Crono's noble nature. His willingness to sacrifice himself so quickly in Zeal against Lavos. Maybe he did something like that. The greater good.

Elvis_Maximus

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« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2005, 09:34:17 pm »
Quote from: ShoeMagus
Sure Crono was tough. We all can see that. (Zaperking what they meant was that you could beat the game in New game + with just Crono if you accessed the portal.)



Well, I know that already, in fact, I acknowledged that. Crono is tough, and yes, overwhelming numbers would definitly defeat him, there is no question about it.

He certainly would've lost in a head on confrontation. But, while he was strong, I don't think he was stupid, and at the very least neither were the other people around him.


Lets say he can take on 20 people at the same time (fairly conservative number considering the power of Lavos and other enemies he fought... but thats opinion). Now, lets say he has the support of Marle for healing, and he pulls the other members of the travelers up, if each of them (aside from Marle and Lucca, though they could both do it with magic easily) can take on 20 people, thats at least 100 people right there just to take out the 6 of them. If we assume a reasonable battle strategy such as: don't fight 20 people with your sword alone, that number could easily go higher. Even only using basic techs the number would climb to most likely somewhere over 300 just to take them out. We really can't say, but either way:


That would be a huge morale breaker.





Quote from: ShoeMagus
But there are ways to kill without openly attacking. Poisons.


And then I'll reply: Antidotes ;).





Quote from: ShoeMagus
And next you'll bring up magic. Well magic has its limits. There were MP points used. And while I"m not saying he was in battle and went "Damn out of points." More likely it was a representation of his own energies reaching their exhaustion point.



Who said I have to bring up magic (though I did :P)?


I would definitly hope he's not literally "running out of points," though that would be very comical.


As I mentioned above, if you were in the opposing army and you saw 6 people take out over 300 people relatively easily, you would probably break and run, I know I would. Even the most battle hardened veterans would be willing to "strategically withdraw" after that. Don't forget that they'd likely be backed up by Guardia's army.

Quote from: ShoeMagus
And finally I'd bring up Crono's noble nature. His willingness to sacrifice himself so quickly in Zeal against Lavos. Maybe he did something like that. The greater good.



To talk about this, I'll just paste part of a theory I posted in the "Did crono die thread" (rather than retyping it), I think its fairly solid.... well, as solid as something based completely on hypothetical events and timelines can be.







Next, lets look at a more specific possibility; ok, so this time only Crono lived, Marle is definitly dead (as she is the princess.. one would assume they would have killed her). To disprove this idea (or discourage at the very least), I invite you to picture the final scene before the fall of the castle to Poore. The poorean (sp?) army is pushing towards the castle at a rapid pace, the knights of the square table, etc. just can't hold them back any longer. It is incredibly unlikely for them to be murdering every resident on the way (only the absolute cruelest and stupidest armies did that), so the likely scenario is that, while towns are perhaps devestated, the people remain unharmed. The king orders Marle to leave the castle, contrary to some popular belief I do not believe that Marle is stupid nor a bimbo (and I don't see much evidence supporting that she is one); she leaves. This means Crono has a choice, either protect his relatively new wife and live to fight another day, or abandon her to fight a losing battle at the castle. While if it wasn't for Marle Crono would probably stay, I don't believe there is anyway he'd let her go off on her own. He leaves with her before the fall and they go into hiding.



Note that I agree with you're Crono and Marle going into hiding idea, personally I think thats the most likely outcome.




Either way, this thread isn't about whether Crono died or not, my point is that there had to be a dimensional split at the point where you make a choice to either ram Lavos with the Epoch or fight the Outer Shell.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2005, 12:18:50 am »
This is how I think the Fall of Guardia went down.

In 1005 AD, Porre had become a highly expansionistic, nationalistic and militaristic country.  All of the major nations, including Guardia and Porre, were engaged in a global conflict, probably similar to WWI.  I do not believe that the time travelers were directly involved in the fighting because there is nothing in that time period which could stand up to them.  Given the events in 1000 AD, Guardia appeared to be a constitutional monarchy, so I doubt that any of the time travelers were leading the war effort, either.

There was a external influence on the timeline, possibly directed by Belthasar, which drew the travelers away from the kingdom.  This was probably some big baddie which required all the time travelers to go and fight it.  During their absence, someone stole the Masamune and slaughtered everyone in Guardia Castle.  This weakened and demoralized Guardia's military and gave Porre the upper hand.  Porre invaded Guardia and occupied much of its territory.

The time travelers returned just in time to save Guardia from destruction. Crono may have even defeated the occupying Porre military single-handedly.  Under the time travelers' protection, Guardia dropped out of the conflict and became very isolationist.  Guardia was still a sovereign nation at the time of Chrono Cross, but it was no longer the colonial super-power of 1000 AD.  Porre was now the dominant world power, but it still had to contend with the other major nations.

Elvis_Maximus

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Alternative Theory on the Plot of CC in relation to CT
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2005, 12:24:51 am »
Quote from: GrayLensman
This is how I think the Fall of Guardia went down.

In 1005 AD, Porre had become a highly expansionistic, nationalistic and militaristic country.  All of the major nations, including Guardia and Porre, were engaged in a global conflict, probably similar to WWI.  I do not believe that the time travelers were directly involved in the fighting because there is nothing in that time period which could stand up to them.  Given the events in 1000 AD, Guardia appeared to be a constitutional monarchy, so I doubt that any of the time travelers were leading the war effort, either.

There was a external influence on the timeline, possibly directed by Belthasar, which drew the travelers away from the kingdom.  This was probably some big baddie which required all the time travelers to go and fight it.  During their absence, someone stole the Masamune and slaughtered everyone in Guardia Castle.  This weakened and demoralized Guardia's military and gave Porre the upper hand.  Porre invaded Guardia and occupied much of its territory.

The time travelers returned just in time to save Guardia from destruction. Crono may have even defeated the occupying Porre military single-handedly.  Under the time travelers' protection, Guardia dropped out of the conflict and became very isolationist.  Guardia was still a sovereign nation at the time of Chrono Cross, but it was no longer the colonial super-power of 1000 AD.  Porre was now the dominant world power, but it still had to contend with the other major nations.



Hmm... thats a very interesting idea. My example in the previous post was purely hypothetical (if you read the entire post in the original thread you can see that I had setup a bit before hand), but I think its a likely occurance if they were involved.


Guardia not falling is an interesting idea, but I had thought that in CC it specifically stated that Guardia was no more..?

Sentenal

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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2005, 12:43:11 am »
Well, its stated serveral times in CC that Guardia is still around.  There is the "General Kid" ending, and another mention as well, somewhere.  But its fact that Porre defeated Guardia.  But in some way or another, Guardia is still somewhat soverign.