Author Topic: Portals in the year 1000  (Read 3131 times)

Pierre

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Portals in the year 1000
« on: January 04, 2004, 06:23:28 pm »
Howdy all,
I was playing CT recently and started wondering what governs the eras in which the gates (portals, time warps, whatever) appear. The ingame explanation is that its all Lavos' fault, and most of the portals do show up in timezones with increased Lavos activity- him landing in the prehistoric era, destroying civilisation in 14000BC, being summoned in 600AD, destroying civilisation again in 1999 and producing spawn in 2300. So then why are there so many portals in the year 1000? A time where Lavos is doing very little has the most holes in the continuum (3, count'em).

It could be the fault of the Entity (the planet, God, whatever) which does have some sort of fairly powerful time-warping abilities, given that in Chrono Cross it drags a large city several thousand years into another dimensions past. However that raises awkward questions about why exactly it would do such a thing. It would require some sort of extra-temporal perception in order to recognise Chrono and the others could be the ones to set in motion events to destroy Lavos.

So, anyone got any ideas about which it is? Lavos or the Entity?

chronotriggerfreak

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Re: Portals in the year 1000
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2004, 06:58:42 pm »
Quote from: Pierre
Howdy all,
I was playing CT recently and started wondering what governs the eras in which the gates (portals, time warps, whatever) appear. The ingame explanation is that its all Lavos' fault, and most of the portals do show up in timezones with increased Lavos activity- him landing in the prehistoric era, destroying civilisation in 14000BC, being summoned in 600AD, destroying civilisation again in 1999 and producing spawn in 2300. So then why are there so many portals in the year 1000? A time where Lavos is doing very little has the most holes in the continuum (3, count'em).

It could be the fault of the Entity (the planet, God, whatever) which does have some sort of fairly powerful time-warping abilities, given that in Chrono Cross it drags a large city several thousand years into another dimensions past. However that raises awkward questions about why exactly it would do such a thing. It would require some sort of extra-temporal perception in order to recognise Chrono and the others could be the ones to set in motion events to destroy Lavos.

So, anyone got any ideas about which it is? Lavos or the Entity?


This is actually a fairly common topic. General consensus is that the gates are the creation of the Entity, who actually practically controlled the destinies of both the Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross heroes in order to stop Lavos from destroying first the planet and second, in Cross, time, space, or something like that itself. And yes, the Entity is quite all-powerful, so it's no difficult task for it to identify Crono as the first Chrono Trigger and give him a nudge through time in the right direction. All the gates were place conveniently by the Entity for reasons to assist Crono in his quest: those in 1000 A.D. allowed him to leave and return home easily. The gate in 600 A.D. first introduced him to time travel and the situation with Magus, which would later be another key point in reaching new eras and also brought in the major conflict for at least the first half of the game, that is, when the gang still thought they were meant to take out Magus in order to stop Lavos. Then the Entity brought them to 2300 A.D. to show them the destruction Lavos caused in order to make them realize that Lavos could, and needed to, be stopped. Then back to 65,000,000 A.D., where they not only witnessed Lavos reaching the earth to realize that Magus was more calling Lavos to the surface than creating or summoning him, and among other things, get necessary primitive materials for weapons and tools in their quest. And the final time period, other than 1999 A.D. which had a gate for obvious reasons, was perhaps the most critical for Crono and the gang, wherein they first encountered Lavos, witnessed what it was actually capable of, and received the power they needed to reach 1999 A.D. and defeat Lavos.

On some notes, Lavos only destroyed Zeal, which was one of two civilizations, in 12,000 B.C., whereas in 1999 A.D. he nearly destroyed all life as it was known; Lavos wasn't actually summoned to the surface, a funny result of Crono's meddling, but was merely disturbed by Magus in an incomplete incantation; and the Entity didn't actually pull Chronopolis through time - that was the result of an experiment by Belthasar and the people of Chronopolis themselves. As far as I know, the Entity went to rest after Chrono Trigger, and the only semi-divine influences present in Cross were Schala, from the Tesseract, and FATE, who controlled El Nido.

Igloo Bob

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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2004, 08:03:10 pm »
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the Entity, who actually practically controlled the destinies of both the Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross heroes in order to stop Lavos from destroying first the planet


Only halfway true, if you accept that theory.  We're told that in CC, Belthasar, not the entity, pre-plans all of Serge's actions, to lead him up to defeating the Time Devourer.

As for the entity in CT, I know I'm in the minority, but I find it unlikely that the entity is to blame/thank for the time portals, unless it is using time as a tool for teaching.  First, many people believe that the entity is the planet, trying to save itself by using Crono, but that raises the question of why, with so much power, the entity can't simply write Lavos out of the timeline?  Hold Lavos in time suspension like it supposedly held Marle?  I believe that either
1) The entity, if it is indeed making the time portals, is doing so to teach Crono a lesson about his planet's history and change it for the better (a little metaphysics; everything's connected, changing one thing can make a lot of people's lives better).  However, given that we know that twenty years later, Porre is in charge and making everyone's lives miserable, this seems unlikely.  Why change history for the better if it will get worse again in short order?

The other possibility, is of course...
2) Lavos is indeed the reason for the time portals.  We know that Lavos has a large amount of energy, and is responsible for at least two of the time portals (in Magus's castle, and in the Ocean Palace).  So if it can make one, could it have not made the rest?  Even if not purposeful, which is actually the most likely event, it seems unlikely that Lavos would purposefully make time portals that could be used to destroy it.  It would also give a sense of not only irony, but balance, as the effects of Lavos's power are what are used to destroy it.  Also, we know that the pendant is (or at least was in the dark ages) filled with and connected to Lavos's power.  It seems very possible that using the pendant filled with Lavos's energy would be enough to "click" something, and open the time portals that may have lain dormant beforehand.

*shrugs* I don't know which, I only believe those are 2 of the most likely answers.

Igloo Bob

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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2004, 08:10:15 pm »
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and the Entity didn't actually pull Chronopolis through time - that was the result of an experiment by Belthasar and the people of Chronopolis themselves. As far as I know, the Entity went to rest after Chrono Trigger, and the only semi-divine influences present in Cross were Schala, from the Tesseract, and FATE, who controlled El Nido.


...and the planet, as well.  Chronopolis is thrown back in time, and at the same time Lavos pulls back the frozen flame, which just happens to be the reason Chronopolis is getting thrown back in time.  The planet, to counteract Chronopolis, pulls Dinopolis from an alternate dimension.  Cross seems to hint that the entity is the planet, but as I stated in the last post, I find that unlikely.  The humans are displayed as being the progeny of Lavos, and enemies of the planet/the entity, and the dragons being the defenders of the planet.  If that is the case, as Cross seems to suggest, the entity/planet was only using Crono to destroy Lavos, and after the time crash, wishes to destroy the human race as well.

chronotriggerfreak

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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2004, 08:33:39 pm »
Quote from: Igloo Bob
...and the planet, as well.  Chronopolis is thrown back in time, and at the same time Lavos pulls back the frozen flame, which just happens to be the reason Chronopolis is getting thrown back in time.  The planet, to counteract Chronopolis, pulls Dinopolis from an alternate dimension.  Cross seems to hint that the entity is the planet, but as I stated in the last post, I find that unlikely.  The humans are displayed as being the progeny of Lavos, and enemies of the planet/the entity, and the dragons being the defenders of the planet.  If that is the case, as Cross seems to suggest, the entity/planet was only using Crono to destroy Lavos, and after the time crash, wishes to destroy the human race as well.


Perhaps the planet needed Crono, a human, in order to save itself from the human race? After all, the planet is never suggested as being able to re-write time, as the ability to send objects through time does not necessarily write them out of existence. Now, consider this: in reality, the fact that Lavos was able to live for so long and draw so much power is really a result of the corruption of human minds. So, if the planet cannot write Lavos out of time, and in the end cannot stop Lavos itself, perhaps this is because in order to stop Lavos, it would need to change the actions of humans who, rather than recognize Lavos as a parasite and destroyer of the planet, are instead feeble-minded and easily swayed into the belief that Lavos's can be used to gain power? Perhaps, then, the planet, with all of the powers it does seem to have in order to be able to create Gates, still cannot control the actions of humans? This is where the Chrono Trigger(s) come(s) in. The planet recognized Crono, the first Chrono Trigger, as a good-hearted young man, and as such simply set into action certain events using the Pendant. Crono, being as much of a hero as the planet hoped, followed the breadcrumb path laid out for him. Crono and his friends, unlike the planet, could have some effect on humans, and fought to make them realize that Lavos couldn't be used in the beneficial way others seemed to believe. In the end, though, he had to have a final battle with Lavos, and I believe in this the planet assisted Crono, embuing him with the strength to defeat the beast.

As far as Lavos creating the gates, I wouldn't say that's an entirely impossible theory. It is suggested, and even somewhat blatantly stated, that Lavos could cause, purposefully or inadvertently, temporal distortions. However, the "Gates" that appear at Magus's castle, and the abyss that he draws Schala, Magus, and the gang into at the Ocean Palace, do not appear to be entirely stable in the normal manner that all other Gates are. The distortions created when Magus attempts to call Lavos to the surface throw Magus and the gang into different time periods. Although this may have been multiple "Gates" created on purpose, I believe that they were absorbed by one erratic and unstable distortion that had no clear endpoint. Also, as theorized in the Geographical Inconsistencies I topic, these unstable distortions also caused the gradual deterioration of Magus's Castle and the entire circular chunk of the island on which it was built. So, while Lavos apparently has come power to cause temporal gateways and distortions to appear, I doubt it has the control to create such constant portals as the Gates. Perhaps Lavos's powers are another reason why the planet could not simply lose it in some unheard-of era of time, in that Lavos could somehow protect itself from the effects of time travel.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2004, 07:13:16 pm »
Firstly, I'd like to say that Cross suggests the planet itself pulled Dinopolis in from another dimension to counteract the sudden presence of Chronopolis. My personal theory is that instead of pulling in another Chronopolis or such, the planet was able to extract from the space time continuum a foil to Chronopolis, and that the dimension which yielded Dinopolis was simply the best opponent to that of the Chronoverse.

Now, my answer to Igloo Bob's inquiries:

1.) If the planet is the Entity, we know from Cross that the planet may have taken a more selfish attitude toward things, considering it is ravaged by humans. Nonetheless, a desirable society is produced in that of the Central Regime, which erects Chronopolis: the plaque within the aforementioned structure dictates a message of peace for all, I believe. It is not in the interest of the Entity to guide human affairs, only ensure its own survival; Lavos alone can threaten it, while humans are simply a bother until civilization becomes advanced.

2.) What is to be noted of the Ocean Palace and Magus' Lair time portals is that they are transitory and fade out once Lavos' disturbances cease. Thus, they are in truth caused by Lavos, but they are not Gates in the sense that they are clear links in time that seem to exist with purpose.

A correction; Lavos pulls the whole of Chronopolis through time, and not only the Frozen Flame, although it may act as the agent by which this action is performed. It is explained in the GamePro interview that Lavos was merely trying to introduce a huge variable into time such a Chronopolis with the intent of altering history enough to preserve it. Of course, Belthasar planned this all.

CTF, your theory that the planet chose Crono due to his magnanimous character or potential to be such is interesting. If we can do a light character analysis, we know that Crono is brave, even to the brink of foolishness; however, his willingless to die in battle perhaps marks a higher maturity in him that forgives this extreme courage.

Oops; I typed this reply by reading the entire thread. CTF has already covered point 2, but I'll leave my commentary in if anyone wishes to see it.

Pierre

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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2004, 06:59:09 am »
Thanks for the answers CTF, Igloo Bob and Zeality.
I still prefer the theory that Lavos created the gates, despite all the flaws because:

1)Evidence.Lavos' powers are demonstrated several times, whilst the Entity is referred to only briefly and in the vaguest terms. It has a larger role in CC (assuming the planet and the Entity are the same thing) but in that it seems to act purely on dumb instinct, rather than showing the degree of planning and intelligence required for it to do what people have suggested.

2)Plot. The Entity picking Chrono, out of the whole vast panoply of all the humans who had ever lived, implies that Chrono is somehow unique, for an unexplained reason. Whilst that's perfectly possible in RPGs it is rather cheap. I like the idea of a gang of ragtag heros exploiting the enemy's weakness' more than that of a select group of individuals being shunted through history by a higher power.

chronotriggerfreak

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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2004, 03:56:28 pm »
No one's forcing you to believe anything, but I'd just like to explain some things further:

1) Despite how vague a reference it might receive in Chrono Trigger, the gang actually doesn't even consider that Lavos created the gates to be an actual possibility. Er, as I was saying, despite how vague a reference the Entity receives, if it actually does what they believe it does, it has a much greater role in CT. The role may be fairly behind-the-scenes, but it doesn't do extremely much in CC other than pull Dinopolis in from the Reptite-dominated timeline. The rest of the "guidance" present in CC is mostly Schala reaching out to Serge from behind the mask of the Time Devourer. The reason the Entity seems to act "dumb" is actually because it  barely acts at all; at the end of CT, Lucca says that she feels the Entity has been put to rest, and for the most part, it has. The threat it originally felt is gone, and if it did manage to sense any threat in the Time Devourer, it was likely much weaker, considering that the original Lavos had been in the Entity/planet's core, while the Time Devourer is merely floating around in the Tesseract. This is why Schala, not the Entity, is the one that steps forth and starts Serge on his journey to destroy the Devourer. Also, it is unlikely that Lavos would create the Gates that we use in the game simply because of the fact that, as you point out in your second note, it would be disadvantageous to him. Why would he create Gates that allowed someone to bring about his downfall? And if he didn't create them on purpose, as we have shown, it is doubtful that they would remain active, constant, and in the same location. Thus, it is sensible that even if Lavos could create the Gates, he did not.

2) It is uncertain whether the Entity nudged Crono through the first Gate and on the way to destroying Lavos because he was the Chrono Trigger, or if he was made the Chrono Trigger when the Entity sensed him (this is also debated about Serge, although the circumstances are slightly different). See, Crono's uniqueness is explained; he is one of two Chrono Triggers seen throughout the series, a special status that is more obvious within Serge during Cross than we actually see happening with Crono in Trigger. It is either proven or believed that this is the only reason Crono was able to be revived; otherwise, the Time Egg would not have worked. Also, even if Lavos had created the gates, the group would still not be nearly as ragtag as you might think, and the whole journey would still be improbably coincidental. Marle must be who she is to have the Pendant, to disappear and have Crono and Lucca meet Frog in 600 A.D., and to have Crono end up being jailed, while he, Lucca, and Marle run into the gate for 2300 A.D. when they try to escape. Lucca, well, she's smarter than anyone else could have been about the Time Gates. Frog, while not necessarily needing to be a Frog, must be the Hero destined to wear the Hero's Medal and weild the Masamune against Magus to begin the sequence leading up to the group's arrival in 12000 A.D. Robo, well, he's one of the less important ones, but it's doubtful anyone else could have helped the gang get access to the other gate in 2300 A.D. Ayla has to be the chief to own the Dreamstone, and to fight Azala, who explains a bit more about Lavos. Magus, of course, is the one who the gang is driven throughout the entire first half of the game to stop, allowing them to discover what Lavos really is, and is quite valuable in destroying Lavos. So, you see, whether or not Crono is nudged out the door by the Entity, the whole thing is still destined.

FYI, Crono is the main character of Chrono Trigger. Chrono is the name of the series.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2004, 04:58:33 pm »
I don't have really have an opinion so here are some other "ojective" informations :

1) The Japanese version makes it clear (okay nearly clear) that the Entity is the Planet. Also, Azala and the Reptites were very nature-worshipping (s/he kept on saying "you apes don't deserve to be with Mother Earth / Mother Earth will be our judge / Has Mother Earth sided with you" things like that), now that might contradict a bit CC...

2) If we try to imagine Crono speaking, he would appear quite fearless and courageous, and everybody seems to like him (except Guardia at the beginning, perhaps they're jealous...). He makes new friends very easily and a kid in Lucca's orphanage wrote that he "is so coool !"; Gaspar said that helping people make the party more powerful to fight Lavos, and that Crono's friends must have lots of hope in him in order to ressurect him.
Plus, he sleeps all the time, so he must be a a great dreamer...  :wink:
Really, I don't think anyone in all CT has as much friends, heart and swordskills than Crono.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2004, 05:18:55 pm »
Just to chime in, GrayLensman, Aitrus and I recently discussed what the status of Chrono Trigger truly means. Judging from two comments (one from Trigger, one from Cross), I believe it holds that the title-bearer has enormous potential to impact the space time continuum for good or ill. Crono is able to restore the planet, while Serge is the only one capable of destroying the Time Devourer according to Belthasar's plan. If both do not act, destruction is seen in 2300 A.D. in the Lavos timeline and in the Dead Sea.

Pierre

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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2004, 02:48:43 pm »
Having played through the "Entity Campfire Discussion" scene in CT again, I realise that the concept of the heroes being directed in their actions is stated far more explicitly than I had remembered it being. Well, Robo does state the idea is "just a theory", but you know whenever any charcter says that in an RPG then they're being dead-on accurate.Ah, well I guess thats my question answered.

Quote
I believe it holds that the title-bearer has enormous potential to impact the space time continuum for good or ill.
Doesn't Magus say something, when informing the heroes of Gaspar's abilities, about it having the power to bring back dead strands of time? That comment holds true for the time egg used to bring back Crono, and it is also true for Serge who resurrects the dead future. By that definition however Crono himself is not a chrono trigger, which he is never stated as being in the game (I think).

and..
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FYI, Crono is the main character of Chrono Trigger. Chrono is the name of the series
D'oh!

Igloo Bob

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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2004, 08:18:10 pm »
Hm... not a lot to add, though I read everything.  I'll say that generally I agree with Zeality and CTF on this, but I do have one question/comment.  At what point does the game name Crono as a Chrono Trigger?  I've never seen anything remotely related to that in either game.  In addition, Lynx calls Serge "the Chrono Trigger", implying that there is only one.  This of course brings up whether there's a difference between Serge as a Chrono Trigger and the Chrono Trigger item itself.  We know that the item could restore parts of lost timelines, what would Serge's roll be, outside of being connected to the Frozen Flame?

Igloo Bob

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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2004, 08:23:43 pm »
...ah, and one other thing.  I tend to be with Pierre on the subject of divine choice vs ragtag group of chance.  It just seems more realistic that way.  While I will concede that Lavos is very unlikely to have created the portals (the only two he creates are unstable), it still seems unlikely that the planet/entity would need the humans to take care of Lavos.  If the Entity could create time portals, why not just send Lavos a billion years into the future?  Indeed, we are assuming that the entity as described in the campfire discussion is a sentient being, which it may not even be.  Since the discussion it just a bunch of suppositions, we can guess as to the nature of the entity, but we really can't know for sure.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2004, 12:41:57 pm »
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If the Entity could create time portals, why not just send Lavos a billion years into the future?

IMO, the Entity couldn't, because Lavos obviously has some power over time (Lavos Core teleports in time at the final battle).
What's more, maybe the Entity just can't send things on it owns. Crono needed both Marle pendant and Lucca's telepod to get sent in 600AD, and he later needed to use the Gate Key (mmh how did Lucca created this thingy).

Besides, Lavos has the ability to create gates, under some circonstances. In 65,000,000BC, when it crashed on Earth, didn't it create a stable gate where Tyrano's Lair once was?
But okay, it didn't crash everywhere where a gate stands...

chronotriggerfreak

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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2004, 03:59:03 pm »
It might have been that the force of Lavos's impact with the planet, obviously full of temporal and spatial energies, caused an accidental reaction that generated the Gate. Also, the Entity could have just as easily created a Gate underground at an earlier time, waiting for Lavos to impact and leave it unburied for Crono and crew to find, or have created it just then. There's nothing that says Lavos created the Gate, or that his impact caused it to form.

Now, that's an interesting theory - that the Entity can create the Gates, but he can't open them? After all, Gates are really just a singularity - we're not really supposed to be able to see them in the game until we open them. So, it could be that we weren't shown the Gate, and the crew didn't notice it, at first simply because we had no idea what they were or that they existed until that point. Perhaps such an inability to open the Gates it created is actually because only humans (and, to an extent, Lavos) can open it, which would support my theory that the Entity needed humans to stop Lavos. Or I'm reading into it too much, but if you consider these two theorems, they really do support each other.

Also, Igloo Bob, the Entity is not trying to save humanity from destruction - it's trying to save itself. Even should it be in a billion years, Lavos could still just as easily feed on the inherent life and energy of the Planet and rain destruction from the heavens. The Planet, or Entity, needs to exterminate Lavos, because no matter when or where Lavos exists, the Planet is still in danger. Actually, if we consider for a moment that the Planet/Entity is indeed sentient, it seems in Chrono Cross that the Planet is generally upset with how the human race, even with Lavos destroyed, slowly depleting it. Naturally, it would have mixed feelings about destroying Lavos, as the only way the Planet can exist without harm and war is for both Lavos and the human race to be gone. Thus, I don't think it could bring itself to destroy Lavos directly, and thus employs humans not only to rid itself of the greater menace, but also for the human race to prove its worth in times of need. Of course, this all doesn't matter that much if the Entity really can't open its own Gates.