Poll

Should the Chrono Universe's concept of time be reconcilable with our own?

Yes
5 (25%)
No
9 (45%)
Huh?
0 (0%)
I just like playing video games.
5 (25%)
Should polls be asking questions that seem to lean towards a specific opinion? I think NOT!
1 (5%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Voting closed: November 21, 2005, 11:52:46 pm

Author Topic: Chrono Time  (Read 13553 times)

Zaperking

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« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2005, 07:17:17 pm »
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...If Lavos got deleted from all time, there'd be no humanity. Nice going, bucko. Lavos only got "deleted" from 1999 and onward. That's it

*Cough* I said he got deleted from 12,000BC on*Cough* (After the Ocean Palace Disaster).

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If, IF, Ayla's language was intended to be Latin's counterpart, any traces of it were probably destroyed by the Zealians and their own language, and if not them, then the big ass flood Lavos created with his PMS.

Well, Most people don't just call a big parasite "Lavos" out of nowhere.

Sentenal

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« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2005, 01:38:59 am »
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1) It has discrepencies because they can't get the full date on Lavos from their timeline. If you can't reread the quote, don't post on it.
Proof? PROOF? Use your common sence or shut the f&%^ up with your theory ideas. If you've never read the first part of Chronopolis, it says it's a military place where they work for the benefit of the children or something. Chronopolis is top secret, and if you look into the game script, even the Counter-Time Experiment and Frozen Flame, and anything to do with the real Chronopolis is Top Secret.
Things are only irrelevant to you because you don't want to answer them. Cheap.

Learn one discrepencies mean.  It makes contradictory data.  They had data on it.
Chronopolis being a military facility, and that means its top secret.  Right.  I live near a militart facility.  People know about it.  Things the facility does may be top secret, but the facility itself isn't.  And its irrelavant because it has nothing to do with either when Lavos rises, or the nature of time, or anything we are arguing about.  Oh yes, forgot to say this: PROOF!?

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Lavos rising in 1999 is canon

Only to the plot.

LMAO!!  Yeah, lets keep arguing it then!  I mean, its only true to the plot, not to anything else!  You know what, screw the plot!   :lol:

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The point is that there is no real record of it happening in their timeline. That's why thye're saying that "in some timelines". In their timeline, Lavos was dead. Remember, Lavos is connected to 12,000AD. Crono and co defeat him in 1999AD, hence deleting him from all of time. They go back to their time and because they time travelled, another timeline is built ontop, and no Lavos appears.

The points on the timeline where Lavos is alive after Crono defeats him, the Canon-anti-zaper version:  pre 65,000,000bc, before crashing up to creation of pocket dimension.  12,000bc, when he destroyed Zeal.  1999ad, when he surfaced to try and destroy the world.  All of this is canon.

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Lavos = Big Fire. If Ayla's language is for instance the equivilant to Latin, then La Vos may mean Big Fire and the Director may have used it appropriately.

Also, Lavos may have been a legend or an urban myth. It would not have been fact. Just like Zeal is not fact to them. also, I'm not sure which one is correct, but either Chronopolis or FATE was already built by 2300AD.

Ayla's language may or may not be their equaliant to Latin.  But still, who would speak it 65 million years later?  Its only been 2000 years since Latin was spoken, and nobody except the Pope speaks it now.  Now think:  If you saw a giant porcupine erupt through the earth's surface, would you say to yourself the Latin words for "Big Fire"?  Its obvious they knew who Lavos was.

And I'll try to be nicer, but I just get so frustrated by reading your posts...

Databyne

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« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2005, 10:37:45 am »
Ayla's comments about Lavos were directed at the brilliant, growing red star in the night sky. All through out the 65 million BC time period, Lavos is there in the sky -- Ayla did not make up the name on the spot. If Lavos was traveling at the speed of the common meteor, then Ayla may have had at least a year (it seems Lavos had his own glow, like a comet) to name the "Big Fire."

Doan is from a dimension where the world is still destroyed (unless fashion in the future has reverted back to the Dark Ages). He would have to have been brought back before Lavos was destroyed and Crono and Crew lost the ability to visit the destroyed future. I can't say who did this. Personally, I don't think the programers much cared for the specifics behind having Doan at the Moonlight Parade, it simply made a good ending having him there.

The Temporal Inertia theory is not an applicable theory to the Chrono Universe because no where else are changes gradual then the Marle paradox. The theory is also not constant to our own universe. "Back to the Future" needed a Temporal Inertia Theory because without one, the movie would be impossible as any changes to the traveller makes to the past should have no affect on himself or poccessions he brings. You could call this Time Travelers Immunity, but TTI really doesn't exist as this is just a biproduct of 5th dimensional travel.

Databyne

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« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2005, 10:50:04 am »
Quote from: Silvercry
If that’s the case, then please explain Doan’s presence at the Moonlight Parade.  Please.  Its been driving me crazy for the last 10 years now.  If time changes are ‘instant’, then at the exact moment the tip of the Rainbow found its way into the heart of the Lavos Core, Doan’s 2400 AD would have ceased to be, banished to the DBT.  In its place, the saved future would exists, complete with Chronopolis and FATE.  In fact, when Crono and company returned home, El Nido would be off in the ocean somewhere, waiting for them.  TTI protects Robo from blinking out, but Doan should not have been there!  Lucca could travel through time all she wants to gather everyone together for the Parade after Lavos’s defeat, but if she tried to go to the future, she should find a thriving society that may or may not contain a man named Doan.

Please explain.


If Doan is brought to the End of Time before Lavos is destroyed, he should not disappear. Changes to a dimension's future are instant. But changes to the future have no affect from members of that dimension's future who have traveled to the past. You (Silvercry) are applying a theory of time that is not constant to the Chrono Universe. When Robo returns home, he returns to a future where "he" might not exist, but he (as he knows himself) will arrive and exist there. I know that's confusing. I'll try to clarify,

Quote from: Doan/Robo Paradox
We will call the Robo that travels with Crono and Crew, A1.
We will call the Robo that is affected by changes in a dimension's time stream, A2.

When Lavos is destroyed, the robot factories will never be overrun by Mother Brain because the humans will be alive to manage them.

No Mother Brain means A2 would likely have his orginal, human designed, programing. ("Likely" because we must assume Mother Brain doesn't gain control through a violent takeover a la "Matrix" or "Terminator," and that Prometheus droids are created at all. We assume because Chrono Cross tells us we should.)

When A1 comes to the future, both A1 and A2 will exist. They neither cancel each other out, nor create a paradox. They simply exist as beings from different dimensions.

Should A1 come to the future and A2 not exist, A1 will still exist. Saying that A1 would dissappear would be equivalent to saying that Frog disappears when he travels to 1000 AD. Saying that A2 would disappear would be equivalent to saying the Time Egg is bogus.


I hope I clarified my point.

Time Traveler's Immunity does not exist in the sense that it's being used in this topic. TTI is an observer's view of a change in dimensions, not a law of occurance. The time traveler is not affected by shifts in time currents because he or she hails from another dimension -- even though the dimension is almost precisely the same. All possibilities mannifest themselves in the multiverse. By traveling back in time (up stream), a time traveler leaves his or her original dimension for a dimension whose only difference is that the time traveler appears spontaneously in a different time.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2005, 03:50:38 pm »
Quote from: Databyne
We will call the Robo that travels with Crono and Crew, A1.
We will call the Robo that is affected by changes in a dimension's time stream, A2.

When Lavos is destroyed, the robot factories will never be overrun by Mother Brain because the humans will be alive to manage them.

No Mother Brain means A2 would likely have his orginal, human designed, programing. (Likely because we must assume Mother Brain doesn't gain control through her own devices like "The Matrix" or "Terminator," and that Prometheus is created at all. We assume because Chrono Cross tells us we should.)

When A1 comes to the future, both A1 and A2 will exist. They neither cancel each other out, nor create a paradox. They simply exist as beings from different dimensions.

Should A1 come to the future and A2 not exist, A1 will still exist. Saying that A1 would dissappear would be equivalent to saying that Frog disappears when he travels to 1000 AD.


Also, the time bastard theory supposes that Robo A2 would, in fact, disappear.  The Chrono Series doesn't show duplicate time travelers being created.  For example, Crono has TTI in 600 AD, and presumably there is another version of Crono in the future who would warp to the past, but no duplicates time travelers appear.

nightmare975

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« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2005, 03:53:22 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
Also, the time bastard theory supposes that Robo A1 would, in fact, disappear.  The Chrono Series doesn't show duplicate time travelers being created.  For example, Crono has TTI in 600 AD, and presumably there is another version of Crono in the future who would warp to the past, but no duplicates time travelers appear.


But Robo A1 is a time traveler while Robo A2 is not, so they should exist at the same time. Right? :?

GrayLensman

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« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2005, 04:04:14 pm »
Quote from: nightmare975
But Robo A1 is a time traveler while Robo A2 is not, so they should exist at the same time. Right? :?


I was mixed up; Robo A2 is the one who disappears.

Databyne

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« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2005, 05:16:08 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
Also, the time bastard theory supposes that Robo A2 would, in fact, disappear.  The Chrono Series doesn't show duplicate time travelers being created.  For example, Crono has TTI in 600 AD, and presumably there is another version of Crono in the future who would warp to the past, but no duplicates time travelers appear.


Not necessarily. The time gates and the Epoch of Chrono Trigger adjust for the passing of time within time periods. When Crono goes inbetween times, he arrives at the same time as when he left. There is no canceling out in the Chrono Universe. If there was, then each time Crono and Crew would return to a time period, nothing would have changed since their very first visit. That would mean Queen Leene would have to rescued again, and again, and again, and again, a chain that would continue so long as you kept time traveling back to 600 AD.

And besides, when using the Time Egg, characters don't cancel themselves out. I've edited the post you were reffering to, to address this.

Again, there is no TTI.

Sentenal

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« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2005, 05:49:00 pm »
TTI does exist.  And I think you agree with it as well, you just don't know that you do.  It simply means that time travelers are immune to changes in the past due that the future they were born/lived/etc has now been discarded and replaced.  Its like you said here, more or less:
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The time traveler is not affected by shifts in time currents because he or she hails from another dimension -- even though the dimension is almost precisely the same. All possibilities mannifest themselves in the multiverse. By traveling back in time (up stream), a time traveler leaves his or her original dimension for a dimension whose only difference is that the time traveler appears spontaneously in a different time.

That is time travelers immunity.

Databyne

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« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2005, 05:57:08 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
TTI does exist.  And I think you agree with it as well, you just don't know that you do.  It simply means that time travelers are immune to changes in the past due that the future they were born/lived/etc has now been discarded and replaced.  Its like you said here, more or less:
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The time traveler is not affected by shifts in time currents because he or she hails from another dimension -- even though the dimension is almost precisely the same. All possibilities mannifest themselves in the multiverse. By traveling back in time (up stream), a time traveler leaves his or her original dimension for a dimension whose only difference is that the time traveler appears spontaneously in a different time.

That is time travelers immunity.


You misunderstand. Time Traveler's Immunity is a name given to an observed effect (like centrifugal force). The observation is correct, but the "immunity" can only exist in Multiverse time travel. You cannot have TTI in linear time theories as it denies the nature of time. TTI is not universally applicable and thus is unwise to be quoted with everyother post. Thus, as an independant theory, TTI does not exist.

Zaperking

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« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2005, 07:43:40 pm »
TB would most likely not exist. The point is that we can never go back to the beginning of the adventure to see ourselves there.

Basically, it's not about being from a different dimension, it's about being from another timeline, and in a sence, it is like a different dimension.

If Robo goes back to the new 2300AD, he will be there, and so will the other Robo. Neither will dissapear. Just like how Janus and Magus did not dissapear. They are the same entity infact. And how the plower Robo didn't dissapear when the real Robo came back.

You know I don't like TTI. But I like Databyte's version. Just because Doan goes to the End of Time doesn't mean hes a transdimensional being, nor is he a time travellor. He's just like at a train terminal, and is about to take a train to another destination. Oh and by the way, TTI exists more only because there was never an instance where you could time travel back before you did something. Like time travel to the instance Lavos erupted in Zeal, after you've already been there. Nor is there a situation where anyone elses grandparent dies, which would cause you to not exist.

The main reason that TB cannot exist the due to people being sent to the DBT. The DBT only accepts timelines and people under Marle's situation. It's either your timeline is changed, or your ancestor was destroyed due to time travelling. Seeing yourself obviousally doesn't cut it.

Sentenal

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« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2005, 08:20:51 pm »
Zaper surrenders!
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Like time travel to the instance Lavos erupted in Zeal, after you've already been there. Nor is there a situation where anyone elses grandparent dies, which would cause you to not exist.

Marle goes back to prevent her ansestors die, which "causes" her not to exist!  And now you are casting that aside!  Victory!

And transdimensional being?  Zaper, is that what you thought TTI made people?

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You misunderstand. Time Traveler's Immunity is a name given to an observed effect (like centrifugal force). The observation is correct, but the "immunity" can only exist in Multiverse time travel. You cannot have TTI in linear time theories as it denies the nature of time. TTI is not universally applicable and thus is unwise to be quoted with everyother post. Thus, as an independant theory, TTI does not exist.

The nature in time is that when the past is changed, the future is discarded.  NOT destroyed.  It still exists.  In the DBT.  Its simply no longer flowing.  So the time traveler is existing on a new timeline.  His home one still exist, just is now inaccessable and no longer flowing.  That is why changes in the past don't effect him, because "his" past is simply discarded, and replaced.  You are agreeing with TTI, you just misunderstand :)

GrayLensman

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« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2005, 10:20:28 pm »
Quote from: Databyne
You misunderstand. Time Traveler's Immunity is a name given to an observed effect (like centrifugal force). The observation is correct, but the "immunity" can only exist in Multiverse time travel. You cannot have TTI in linear time theories as it denies the nature of time. TTI is not universally applicable and thus is unwise to be quoted with everyother post. Thus, as an independent theory, TTI does not exist.


If you define time-lines as dimensions (although I don't think that is an accurate analogy), then every instance of time travel is in fact dimensional travel.  Time travelers are observed to have immunity because they are independent of the causality of the current time-line.  Their pasts are forever preserved in the DBT.

Time Bastard is the logical requirement for time travel to occur as it is observed in Chrono Trigger.  If Crono exits a Time-Gate in 600 AD, he receives TTI.  In the future, the new version of Crono, who exists due to his counterpart's presence in 600 AD, enters the Time-Gate; where does he go?  The original Crono will always exit the Gate in 600 AD due to TTI.  We do not see occurrences of duplicate time travelers in any of the games.  The new version of Crono warping to the DBT is a convenient solution.

I do not believe the developers ever intended things like TTI or TB, but in order to rationally describe the time travel in the Chrono Series, these concepts are necessary.

Zaperking

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« Reply #73 on: December 03, 2005, 04:52:12 am »
Quote from: GrayLensman


I do not believe the developers ever intended things like TTI or TB, but in order to rationally describe the time travel in the Chrono Series, these concepts are necessary.


Good, Good. That's good to know you think that way ^.^ Just that most of the other believers of it insist that it has to be and is fact >.<

Theicedragon

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« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2005, 10:54:37 am »
Wow!! I think my head just exploded!! So basically, from all the posts that I just read, nobody knows for sure how time travel works in the Crono universe?  But I have a question. Are you saying that if I time travel from 600 AD to 1000AD and then stay for 15 min, That if I travel back I can only go to 600 and 15min AD?