Author Topic: The Sea of Eden in Home World  (Read 6499 times)

fxar99

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« on: October 20, 2005, 02:57:09 pm »
Excuse me if this is a noob question, but why is the Sea of Eden destroyed in the Home World? Is this the part where the worlds split?

Mystik3eb

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2005, 03:10:05 pm »
You really should check the encyclopedia for that answer.

...but I'll answer anyway. I'll admit it is fun.

The dimensions split when Kid rescued Serge from drowing in 1010 AD (possibly an attempt made by Wazuki immediately before he completely caved into FATE). In the Home world, the 'changed' world, suddenly there was no past, because that moment (Serge being rescued) was the start of that dimension. Meaning nothing in CT had happened. Meaning Lavos was still alive and would bring destruction in 1999 AD. Meaning Chronopolis wouldn't exist, yet it had to exist since El Nido was still here and had been in development for thousands of years. You can see the paradox this created. This made a huge mess of the Sea of Eden in the Home World, causing the whole area to become the Dead Sea, a conglomeration of crashed, frozen time periods that used to exist but don't anymore mixed together.

However the Frozen Flame still existed here. Lynx in Home World hoped that maybe by this whole Dead Sea business with times crashing and everything that maybe the Frozen Flame would be accesible again by some chance, so he got help from the dragoons. He was wrong, and they were all trapped in time. Apparently the Frozen Flame had kept it's imbued information that Serge was the Arbiter, and that only the Arbiter could come into contact with it, and thereby survive in the Dead Sea.

This means that Lynx, in the Home World, is dead. However FATE in Another World is not, and can see into both dimensions (as is explained in Chronopolis). He can't directly influence it, but he sends Miguel over to be its protector, to stop it from getting into Serge's hands (since it's trying to get the Frozen Flame in its own dimension using Serge's body).

Since Miguel fails to stop Serge and Co from coming into contact with Home Worlds Frozen Flame, Lynx (FATE) decides to destroy everything in the Dead Sea rather than have his enemy get hold of the Frozen Flame. So Dead Sea, Home Frozen Flame, and Miguel all go bye-bye.

Make sense?

fxar99

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2005, 03:40:14 pm »
Hmmm...

I didn't get the part where you say that the CT events haven't happened in the Home World. When something happens that causes the universe to split, the past of the new timelines is supposed to be the same (the future is what changes).

SilentMartyr

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2005, 03:48:31 pm »
Quote from: Mystik3eb
In the Home world, the 'changed' world, suddenly there was no past, because that moment (Serge being rescued) was the start of that dimension.


You might have overlooked it since it was right int he middle of that paragraph.

fxar99

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2005, 03:55:08 pm »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Quote from: Mystik3eb
In the Home world, the 'changed' world, suddenly there was no past, because that moment (Serge being rescued) was the start of that dimension.


You might have overlooked it since it was right int he middle of that paragraph.


I mean, why doesn't Home World have past? If I walk together with you, then I turn right and you turn left and continue walking, it doesn't mean that we haven't been walking together until a specific moment...

Mystik3eb

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2005, 04:09:25 pm »
Quote from: fxar99
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Quote from: Mystik3eb
In the Home world, the 'changed' world, suddenly there was no past, because that moment (Serge being rescued) was the start of that dimension.


You might have overlooked it since it was right int he middle of that paragraph.


I mean, why doesn't Home World have past? If I walk together with you, then I turn right and you turn left and continue walking, it doesn't mean that we haven't been walking together until a specific moment...


That's not the right idea. The idea is that there's only one of him, not two. Both those dimensions didn't always exist. Suddenly, because something happened, you've got that person turning left while he continues to the right. This person turning left started right where the other person turned right, he hadn't been coming along the same parth.

Make sense? Ack, I'm not so great at trying to word these things, I realize.

SilentMartyr

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2005, 04:31:56 pm »
Quote from: fxar99
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Quote from: Mystik3eb
In the Home world, the 'changed' world, suddenly there was no past, because that moment (Serge being rescued) was the start of that dimension.


You might have overlooked it since it was right int he middle of that paragraph.


I mean, why doesn't Home World have past? If I walk together with you, then I turn right and you turn left and continue walking, it doesn't mean that we haven't been walking together until a specific moment...


No, it's like you are supposed to turn left (Home) but because of some outside effect you turn right (Another). The change splits the dimensions, but since that outside effect changed what was supposed to happen, all prior events are not considered, to the complete original events are used as past. Thus Lavos still lives and Chronopolis isn't made, ect.

GrayLensman

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Re: The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2005, 07:18:13 pm »
Quote from: fxar99
Excuse me if this is a noob question, but why is the Sea of Eden destroyed in the Home World? Is this the part where the worlds split?


Miguel and the Children in the Dead Sea answer this question.

Quote
Miguel:
   The Dead Sea is the true
   form of this planet's future.
   That's right...
   At one stage our world was on
   the verge of such inevitable
   destruction...
   That was in 1999, when the
   parasitical alien life-form known
   as Lavos awoke after centuries
   of feeding off this planet.
   Lavos fell from the heavens a
   countless number of years ago
   and burrowed deep beneath the
   surface to eat and sleep.
   Slowly but deliberately, Lavos
   devoured our planet from the
   inside out...waiting for the time
   to ripen for its true awakening.
   Finally Lavos did awake and
   manifested its true form on
   the surface of the planet.
   That's when our world faced a
   death from which there seemed
   no possibility of escape...
   
Miguel:
   Were it not for a teenage boy
   and his group of adventurer
   friends, that is...
   These young heroes caught a
   glimpse of this planet's future
   destruction as it appeared in
   the year 2300.
   They realized they could not
   turn their backs on our planet,
   even if its death would not be
   anywhere near their lifetime.
   Time traveling from epoch to
   epoch, they battled Lavos for
   the future of our planet, and
   eventually won.
   But in saving our planet from
   the death Lavos was going to
   bring about, they also changed
   the course of history...
 
 [Lucca]
   At that very moment,
   this whole future time
   axis ceased to exist.
   Call it cause and effect...
   It is just a problem of
   possibilities, after all...
   In this world, there are
   no such things as
   absolutes or certainties.
 
 [Marle]
   But the future that
   was supposed to have
   disappeared is about
   to be restored here...
   The future destruction
   of our planet is going
   to become a reality in
   this world once again...
 
 [Crono]
   The vengeance of the
   future we killed is
   about to begin...
   With Serge serving
   as the trigger...


The short answer is that the Dead Sea in Home World is a reflection of the original future destroyed by Lavos in Chrono Trigger.  The Sea of Eden is ruined because Serge's survival caused to be victorious in 1999 AD in Home World.  After Miguel dies, FATE destroys the Dead Sea so that Serge cannot access the Frozen Flame of Home World

There is a theory which attempts to explain this:

The dimensions split because Kid time travelled to 1010 AD to save Serge from drowning.  Normally, when the past is changed a new future time-line is created and the original time-line is discarded to the Darkness Beyond Time, which acts like a causal trash heap.  For reasons which are never explained, the altered time-line was split into a parallel dimension instead of the DBT.  Another World, where Serge died in 1010 AD is the original time-line.  Home World, where Serge lived, is the aberration.

Because Home World only existed for 1010 AD onward, presumably the time-line ends in 1010 AD, which would be some type of discontinuity.  If you had a time machine in Home World, you couldn't travel to any point before 1010 AD.  The version of Crono who time traveled to defeat existed in 1000 AD Another World.  When that version of Crono time travels, he can only reach other time-periods in Another World without dimensional traveling.  If Home World has no past time-line prior to 1010 AD, it is impossible for Crono to reach 1999 AD in Home World to defeat Lavos.  After the dimensional split, the area of Chronopolis sent through time changed to reflect the ruined future.

Because Serge survived in 1010 AD, he caused Home World--in which there is no past version of Crono to defeat Lavos--to exist, so Serge is responsible for the ruination of the future.

Sentenal

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2005, 07:23:37 pm »
Okay, I'll give my shot at it.  Also note that for most purposes, I will only cosider Another and Home world dimensions, not Reptite dimension or RD dimension.

We originally have one dimension.  The original dimension.  Another World.  As time progresses, we have Crono's quest, traveling through time, eventually defeating Lavos, and saving the planet's future.  Time progresses, Chronopolis, the Time Crash, and other events that set up Chrono Cross.  Now, we get up to 1010, Another World, timeline where El Nido now exists.  In 1010, Serge is killed.  But, something happend (we don't know), and he was saved from death, and this split off a new dimension from Another, [the one that split off was] Home.

Now, consider where on this chain of events that Crono and Co defeated Lavos.  Per this chain of events, Crono and co defeats Lavos before Home is created.  Because of this, Crono and co cannot time travel to a timeline that does not exist yet.  Plus, they time travel from a period that is before the time split.  Since there is only one set of Crono, at the time they time traveled to defeat Lavos, and now there are two dimensions, the only one he could have possible time traveled to was Another, since you cannot go from a time where Dimension X does not exist to the future in Dimension X.

That make any more sense?

Kazuki

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2005, 11:00:24 pm »
Hmm...I wondered what would happen if you theoretically say, had an Epoch-esque vehicle and tried to travel back further than 1010 A.D. with it in Home World? Would it just deny access completely? Or would you possibly be dumped into some extratemporal location such as the End of Time/Darkness beyond time?

Sentenal

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2005, 12:22:15 am »
?

Your asking what if a person from Home World used an Epoch to travel back to pre-1010?  Pre 1010 the dimensions are one, so the person would travel back to the original dimension.

Think of time as a line.  Think of the dimensional split as a new line splitting off from the original.  If you keep following the split line back, you eventually reach your original line.

Mystik3eb

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2005, 02:17:26 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
?

Your asking what if a person from Home World used an Epoch to travel back to pre-1010?  Pre 1010 the dimensions are one, so the person would travel back to the original dimension.

Think of time as a line.  Think of the dimensional split as a new line splitting off from the original.  If you keep following the split line back, you eventually reach your original line.


But that goes against everything we've been saying about Home World splitting off completely, including the past, meaning it WOULDN'T have the same past. When the dimensions split, they split.

I think if they were to travel back, they'd probably end up in the End of Time *shrug*

Zaperking

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2005, 03:09:51 am »
@ Gray
We do not know for sure that if you time travelled in Home World before 1010 what would happen. I'd rather think that you'd either A) Arrive in the DBT and then go to any time that you want or dimension or B) You'd go back to Another world's past and if you time travel forward, you'll be in it's future.

Since if the dimensions are split, then there still has to be a little metaphoric curve in the road.

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GrayLensman

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2005, 10:10:07 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
@ Gray
We do not know for sure that if you time travelled in Home World before 1010 what would happen. I'd rather think that you'd either A) Arrive in the DBT and then go to any time that you want or dimension or B) You'd go back to Another world's past and if you time travel forward, you'll be in it's future.


Quote
Because Home World only existed for 1010 AD onward, presumably the time-line ends in 1010 AD, which would be some type of discontinuity.


This is only one interpretation. Take it as you will.

I don't think there is any before to travel to.  In Home World, the edge of space-time is 1010 AD.

Zaperking

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The Sea of Eden in Home World
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2005, 10:15:49 am »
Well, Schala already demonstrated that one can go through time to enter different dimensions. Same with the End of Time, since that in itself is more like a DBT type of place.