Author Topic: True nature of Dreamstone  (Read 3659 times)

JustinS1985

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True nature of Dreamstone
« on: December 19, 2003, 07:20:18 pm »
I've been thinking about the dreamstone we find in CT, and how we have always just assumed that it is simply a good conducter of Lavos energy, but I think that there may be more to it than that.  I think that the dreamstone may be able to conform itself to the owners wishes/their dreams.  That is how the stone got it's name.  For example, Queen Zeal's dream was to attain the power of Lavos, so the dreamstone was formed into the mammon machine, which was able to conduct Lavos power, while melchior's dream was to forge amazing weapons, hence the Masamune.  Also masa and mune are refered to as Melchior's dreams.  So what do ya'll think about this?  Post-exam delirium? or does it have merit?

Chrono'99

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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2003, 08:37:33 am »
Also, the Entity/Earth 's dream was to make Crono view its memories (the time gates)...

rotorkid

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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2003, 05:09:59 pm »
According to Chrono Cross, the Dreamstone is a fragment of Lavos' shell. I had a strange power on the humans which resulted in their becoming intelligent. So when they say that dreamstone shaped peoples dreams in Chrono Trigger, it's just a different way of saying that Lavos made them intelligent.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2003, 05:12:42 pm »
really?
weren't the dreamstones already here in 6,000,000BC before Lavos' coming??

rotorkid

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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2003, 05:31:28 pm »
Yes, but I think that it's just pieces that hit the Earth before him.

ZeaLitY

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True nature of Dreamstone
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2003, 05:45:44 pm »
I believe that is a common misconception, along with the rumor that the Frozen Flame is composed of Dreamstone. If it were, then all Dreamstone, as parts of Lavos' shell, would thus have to hold the qualities of the Flame as well. But in fact, Dreamstone is never mentioned in the script of Chrono Cross.

Perhaps we must examine the energy that Dreamstone conducts. Lavos absorbs the energy of the planet, yet outputs emanations that cause distortions in time and space. Which of these might Dreamstone channel -- the chaotic energy of Lavos, or the power of the planet being absorbed?

rotorkid

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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2003, 05:54:55 pm »
If you can Zeality, play through the Chronopolis part of Cross again, they mention that the growth of humans was because of a "Red Rock". In Trigger, they call the Dreamstone a red rock, and they say that it is what caused the humans to achieve their dreams. As to your question, my belief is that it channels the energy of Lavos, because as the game mentions several times, humans are the "Prodigy of Lavos" which would lead me to believe that they are becoming like Lavos and thus receiving chaotic energy from him. Also, I think that the Frozen Flame is just a very large piece of Dreamstone, or just one that has become sentient.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2003, 07:24:43 pm »
Quote from: Brain Terminals: Model of Brain analysis/Model of Brain evolution
Ghost1
The life-forms on this planet developed from single-celled microorganisms to
protozoans... Then from fish to amphibians... from reptiles to mammals... and eventually to
humans. Beginning with a cerabral neocortexs, which only exists in higher mammals... The
anthroped brain enlarged at an accelerated pace until it became the human brain we know.
Could the reason for the abnormal development of the human brain be the biological
contamination caused by Lavos? That would mean that humans are really a heterogeneous
life-form, or "foreign matter," as far as the planet is concerned. Humans are a sudden
mutation caused by the contact with Lavos -- an alien life-form that fell to this planet
from space. That is why humans are, biologically speaking, unbalanced and half-finished.
Internally inconsistant and disconnected, the human existence is plauged by contradictions.
An incomplete species, torn between love and hatred, whose very being is self-contradictory.
>From the planet's viewpoint, humans are just destroyers and a cursed, yet perhaps pathetic,
blight on the world."


Quote from: Face in Terra Tower
When I was still human, I was locked up here, and I have been here ever since...
This tower is a fortress belonging to the ancient Reptites... A symbol of revenge,
brought against mankind by the Dragons... With the defeat of FATE, the seal has been
broken and this tower has surfaced... In the eyes of the Dragons, we humans are the
foes... A brain that has developed abnormally to 3 times the original size in the span
of 3 million years... We humans have evolved at an enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame... In a sense, mankind is Lavos's offspring... We humans
are extraneous to this planet... Now... How will you fight, Serge...


The latter quote seals the deal by noting that contact with the Frozen Flame occurred around 3,000,000 B.C., whereas humans had long been using Dreamstone. I don't believe size is relevant, since the Mammon Machine dwarfs the stature of the Flame itself.

Daniel Krispin

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True nature of Dreamstone
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2003, 07:51:05 pm »
But we must remember, in light of the "Could it be..." that this is just a hypothesis that is made. As I have said before, this referral to humans being "Progeny of Lavos" is unique to Chrono Cross, and as such I think is Dragon Propaganda. Certainly the human brain is more advanced than are most animals, and the murals in Fort Dragonia would profess that this is as a result of Lavos' intervention. This, however, cannot be when looking at the wider Chrono universe. As prehistoric as Ayla is, she is self conscious and has what might be termed an evolved mind. Keeping this in mind such tampering by Lavos is impossible, and the murals must be nothing more than Dragon hate literature for the race that wiped them out (and this hatred for those "apes" we see all too clearly from Azala in CT). It comes down to either trusting to the Dragon's words, or what is shown and seen by Crono in Chrono Trigger. I side with the latter.
That being said, while the Frozen Flame, ie. Lavos, is not responsible for human evolution, then it might be said that the culprit could indeed be the dreamstone itself. I am willing to guess that this was also responsible for the Reptite evolution, but that is an entirely different matter, and likely occured centuries before. All along the Dragons say that the earth despises humans...and yet it is they, not the Reptites that save it. It was not they, but the Reptites, that doomed it with the summoning of Lavos. Perhaps the earth saw all too well that the Reptites would die; perhaps humans were the "plan B" as it were. The Dreamstone is certainly a magical thing that is of this earth. That being said if it is the culprit for both Reptite and human rise, both races rose according to the will of the "entity". Though I would like to imagine this entity as God, or perhaps fate, I am certain that it is meant to be the planet. This would cast much doubt on the incessant dragon/reptite claims that humans are something of a plague or misfit to the planet. They are different in skill, certainly, and further removed from things that grow. But maybe it is through this virture that the entity knew victory against Lavos could be accomplished, and so brought forth a new, younger race to surplant the older. Naturally the Reptites wouldn't take kindly to this, and speak evil of humanity.
I would say that the Reptites were fairer seeming, more beautiful and in tune with the earth and such, but in the end had a flaw: they could not stop Lavos. I wager that in their home dimension Lavos was never stopped.
It is an interesting thing, I believe. And in a strange parallel, might draw unadvertant comparisons with Tolkien, perhaps. The Reptites are the older race, as are the Elves. The humans are the younger born, and are destined to surplant the older. But whereas in Tolkien the Elves take this as how things must be, the Reptites fight what is fated, and are destroyed. Also in the Chrono universe it says numerous times how frail humans are; well, in Tolkien men, compared to elves, are sickly and weak seeming, though among the ranks of men there are a few that stand mighty even among the Elven Lords, and do things that even they could not do. This and the fact that Zeal bears greater resemblance to Numenor than anything else (even Atalantis). But that is a different topic, I should think.
I know this has digressed significanly from the main topic, but it all stems from the dreamstone. It is through the dreamstone, I think, that both races rose. As it says in Zeal, it gives birth to hopes and dream; this is likely what it is, the magic of hopes and dreams, of feeling and emotion. And so it can be shaped by those that hold it, it not being so much a physical thing but merely a home to the spirit, even as the body is merely the home to the spirit. Perhaps a part of the earth, even as the Frozen Flame is part of Lavos. And this theory would make the humans no strangers, but the successors to the Dragons, and in a very real sense the heroes; they who succeeded in skill where the Dragons failed of their promise.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2003, 08:43:25 pm »
The Reptites didn't summon Lavos. It's an easy mistake to make, given the following quote from Azala:

Quote
Red Star! Fall! Stain the Earth... Red!


Easy to mistake that for a summoning, but the Red Star shone in the sky before that quote is spoken. After all, Lavos has a will of it's own, it was coming anyway, Azala just saw it coming.

And humans weren't a back up plan. It would seem Dinopolis was, a back up plan to try to reinstate the Reptite rule in the post-Lavos Timelines.

Daniel Krispin

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True nature of Dreamstone
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2003, 09:40:04 pm »
Ah, good point. I am always at variance whether or not Azala summoned Lavos or not. True enough, it is more than likely it was simply a prediction, and not anything to do with Azala herself.
And point taken on Dinopolis as well. The only defence of my theory I can give in this regard is that perhaps plan B failed as well, and that was plan C. In this regard humans might well have been the backup but, after eliminating Lavos once (ie Crono), they subsequently let themselves fall under his power, as seen with FATE. The earth, seeing this greivous failure, and knowing that humans only did half the job, summoned for itself its old children in an attempt to finish the job, or at least keep the humans from falling to the evil of Lavos. Of course it was a failed attempt, as Dinopolis itself fell under Lavos' corruption, and it is up to humanity to come to the salvation of the earth once again, proving themselves ever the true heroes. Serge is plan D, maybe? No doubt the earth likes its beloved elder children the Reptites the best (even as Gaia in the ancient Greek ones loves the anciet Titans and Giants above the upstart Gods), but when it comes right down to it, for whatever reason, fate maybe, it is always humans, whatever their flaws may be, that come to its rescue. This is the best theory I can come up with in the constrains of the evolutionary world of CT/CC. I am not usually taken to thinking in such a manner with evolution and an earth entity and all, and so my philosophising and theorising suffers a little.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2004, 09:14:01 pm »
Gaspar calls it a prehistoric mineral. Does this have any relevance?

Empiric

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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2004, 02:04:06 am »
The Dreamstone would have had to undergo a lot to become what Ayla held in her hand to give to Crono.  Remember that in *our* timeline, we are just unsurfacing gems that used to be dinosaurs and other life; several ways for Ayla to have a well formed gem:  

1.)  The Dreamstone is of Volcanic origin and thus a newly formed gem (Unlikely since Zeal is capable of mining it to build the mammon machine and other things.  However, after seeing the active magma in Prehistoric Age, its not a complete impossibility.)  However, gems created in this manner are not known for being very hardy when used as construction materials.  They are not durable, and less likely to survive for long periods of time.

2.)  The gem is a small 'meteorite' that fell from Lavos early; however, this is also hard to imagine, since there would have to have been One HECK of a meteor shower of Red stones that fell with Lavos.  This could also be more plausible if it just broke off of Lavos as he burrowed under the earth, creating a seam of Red crystals that would lead too Lavos.  However, The environmental conditions (The coldness the villagers complain of; reduced animal population) could be the result of a massive meteor shower that kicked dust into the atmosphere...  Perhaps Azala's prediction was not only an omen of disaster and bloodshed, but a prediction regarding how Lavos would rule by salting the earth with his red stones?

3.)   The gem could have been cooking in the earth for years, since the beginning of time.  The only question would be how the humans got their hands on it in the first place; considering they did not seem to have any motivation for mining.  Mining typically evolves after farming, when the need for construction materials and bargaining pieces appears.  Ayla's tribe used natural items for bargaining chips, thus I dont think they would have mined for those kind of materials.
   Thus, unless the Red Stone have found its way to the surface by itself through natural erosion and tectonic movement: like field stones; the Red Stone might have been a throwaway of the Reptites, who DID have a mineral dependent society.  Just think, the reptites might have evolved through the entities plans using the dreamstone.  As a society grows it gets harder to control resources, and some of it falls into the palms of a less sophisticated race:  the humans.  These ape descendents evolve due to the leftover energy eminating from the dreamstone, and become a threat to the Reptites, who cant have anyone competing with them; Darwins survival of the fittest.  The Reptites would have won however (Creating one of the CT timelines), if Lavos had not of come and created the Ice Age that killed off the Reptites.  With the Entities influence dwindling slightly, Lavos used the dreamstones, something already tuned to biological energy, to jumpstart human evolution thricefold, getting them ready for the genetic devouring that is too come.
   This could also be what seperates that world from all the others, that specific genetic 'edge' that focuses that Lavos to the planet.  These crystals were not necessary, just something the entity and then Lavos used to steer the planet.

Could the entity have originally slowly controlled human/reptite evolution through the red stone until Lavos appeared, who overrode this biological/spiritual capacitor and put the humans on evolutionary overdrive?

Oops, longer then originally intended.

V_Translanka

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True nature of Dreamstone
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2004, 05:58:24 am »
Here's my blip fo yous gangsta wannabees out thiz-air.

Lavos can indeedily be seen before Azala makes that quote. When you're up on the mountain (all the names in the Prehistoric Era are lost on me, I must go back and play again sometime) getting the Dactyls, he can be seen above as the "Red Star".

As for Dreamstone...

I have always thought of it as the Earth giving the heroes an edge over Lavos. I thought it was always apparent that Dreamstone came from the earth, in what manner? I suppose that Volcanic Theory would be plausible, I mean, Dreamstone IS magical in nature, no?

Also, I've almost always thought that Dreamstone WERE sentient! Masa & Mune can reside within the Red Knife/Masamune and I think it's thusly plausible that Doreen resides within The Pendent/Astral Amulet (this would correspond with where the heck she pops up from in CC when the MasterMune is formed by the three of them). Although I suppose this isn't backed up by the Mammon Machine, I wasn't sure that it was fully created with Dreamstone, or only had SOME Dreamstone.

On another note, the Dreamstone/Masamune/Red Knife does seems to absorb magical energy as can be seen in two fights in the game. First in Magus' Palace against Magus. Here it absorbs his Magical Defence. And secondly in the Ocean Palace when Frog can use the Masamune against the Mammon Machine to absorb its stored magical energy.

Uhm...I either forgot if I was going any further with this and/or am done and think I've made at least one point that's relevent...

~<*END TRANSMISSION*>~

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2004, 08:35:28 pm »
Quote from: Symmetry
5. Enlightened v Earthbound: Picture the world of 65,000,000 BC with the Red Rock. If I remember right, someone in CT claims it was once used as currency. We know that Ayla had the largest chunk of anyone in the village. Now, imagine what would happen if the Red Rock began to take on Lavos' power - and become Dreamstone. Who would possess it? The weathy. The powerful. The leaders. Over time they begin to notice that the Red Rock has taken on strange properties. Not only do these people have greater amounts of the rock, but they also have the capacity to gain more of it for themselves. The emergence of the Enlightened v Earthbound struggle might be explained as an extention of good 'ol class struggle.


Interesting implications in number five. That's a good idea on how Zeal might have been initially started; the only far reaching difficulty is that it suggests Ayla's ancestry would have become Zealians, negating Marle's status as her descendant -- for the Zeal line ended with Schala and Janus; otherwise, Crono and co. would return to a very different 1000 A.D. Of course, it is certainly possible that someone else came to power as Chief after Ayla died. Kino didn't look like the strongest guy in the bunch, after all, and the status of Chief was based on merit.