Author Topic: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism  (Read 8403 times)

Syna

  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 448
    • View Profile
Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2011, 08:06:05 pm »
Thought, in light of your argument that "you're going to hell" need not be a personal judgment, I'm curious as to your take on original sin. In most versions of Christianity I'm aware of, original sin is conceived to be man's choice. And to these brands of Christianity, original sin is _deeply_ personal. It _is_ a judgment on your character. You _are_ at fault for it. How could the choice to remain in sin not result in a personal judgment, since God (by this line of thinking) has already made one Himself?

(Of course this is a clinical question: how people behave and perceive is, as we all know, quite different from what they think. It's quite possible to rationally believe in FireAndBrimstone!Hell and still treat people beautifully, though i suspect it's rare. )

Anyway, I agree with your perspective. Very unfortunately, I think conversations about the Christian afterlife tend to center around a uniquely Calvinist conception of hell, and pardon my French, but fuck that guy. The reminder that there are different Christianities is always necessary to this type of discussion -- I say this as someone who renounced Christianity at fourteen and spent four years in an environment where everyone I knew was aghastly concerned that I was going to hell, so I know my share about how it can damage relationships irrevocably, thank you. I'll have more to say on this later.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 09:31:25 pm by Syna »

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #91 on: September 30, 2011, 03:25:16 pm »
In all honesty, I can't quite understand a perspective in which Original Sin can be personal. It is quite literally not the person who has sinned, it was their ancestor (Adam). An individual could live a perfect life and still be condemned. However, what is often associated with Original Sin is the idea of that people have an inherent tendency to sin. That is, it isn't just Adam's sin that condemns people, but rather the various sins that they have committed during their life. However, while this does here have a religious flavor, it fits in with a general discussion that exceeds the bounds of religion: are people basically good or basically bad? It is true that most Christians do believe in a human sinful nature, and this belief can be a personal judgment, but Christians can still fall on either side of the above philosophical question. For example, I tend to be on the "basically good" side of the debate. This is revealed in such statements of mine like this:

Most humans want to be good: evil usually happens because people have justified it to themselves, if only in the moment of actually committing the act.

In short, when a religious person does say that a friend has a sinful nature, it isn't a fully religious stance and it can be barely personal (just to the extent of saying that the friend is human and that all humans are imperfect: I would generally contend that entering into a relationship realizing that people aren't perfect is desirable and healthy).

Of course, there are very mean, very horrible Christians (I would generally like to say that they aren't Christians at all, but that gets into another who set of difficulties). They see people as nasty to those who are not their friends, and often nasty to those who are as well (a trait that these Christians, unfortunately, often share). They see people are barely restrained savages who'd as soon eat your face as look at it. They do indeed fall on the side of "people are basically bad" and see religion as a necessary restraint to keep that horribleness in check. My point being, however, is that this isn't caused by the concept of Original Sin, nor is it caused by a general perspective that humans have a sinful nature. It is a perspective that goes beyond religion, and it is one that atheists can share as well (with, admittedly, different justifications).

Just to be clear on a somewhat associated point: Syna, in my previous post I was specifically presenting a perspective that was biased towards being "somewhat nice" towards Christians, with the intent of showing that it is quite possible to believe in certain perspective and for those perspective to not be problematic. I did not mean to indicate that there aren't jerks who are Christians: such a claim would be laughed out of the forums, since we all know far better than that.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 07:39:44 pm by Thought »

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #92 on: September 30, 2011, 07:16:43 pm »
Somebody got struck by lightning, oh ho hoh! =)

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #93 on: September 30, 2011, 07:28:44 pm »
If you are referring to me, then I am warning you: don't even think about making a bat out of me!

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #94 on: September 30, 2011, 07:31:18 pm »
Ah, but you're so much better as a raconteur than as a racket, anyhow! I'd make conversation pieces out of you.

But I was referring to the fact that your post ended mid-sentence, abruptly.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #95 on: September 30, 2011, 07:40:24 pm »
Ah, thanks for catching that. 'Twas a discarded thought that apparently tried to survive the oblivion of the delete button.

Sajainta

  • Survivor of the Darkness
  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2004
  • Reporting live from Purgatory.
    • View Profile
Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #96 on: September 30, 2011, 08:08:36 pm »
You should have left it there.  It was hilarious.

Sajainta

  • Survivor of the Darkness
  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2004
  • Reporting live from Purgatory.
    • View Profile
Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #97 on: September 30, 2011, 09:46:01 pm »
Very unfortunately, I think conversations about the Christian afterlife tend to center around a uniquely Calvinist conception of hell, and pardon my French, but fuck that guy.

Oh dear ol' John Calvin.  One of the schools I went to was Calvinist.  Those were the most unruly, debauched, fucked-up Christians I have ever met.

Personally, I'm a proud reprobate.

Syna

  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 448
    • View Profile
Re: A religion-themed offshoot of Fuck Sexism
« Reply #98 on: September 30, 2011, 10:45:57 pm »
You have a compelling view of the matter -- everyone else I've queried about original sin has said some variation on "all of us would have made the same choice as Adam" (self-sabotaged design, much, Nobodaddy?), and has put an emphasis on our inherent sinfulness, rather than potential goodness. The most optimistic rhetoric usually goes something like: "oh, with God's help, we can achieve so much, but we can't forget we are so fallen."

Quote from: Thought
Syna, in my previous post I was specifically presenting a perspective that was biased towards being "somewhat nice" towards Christians, with the intent of showing that it is quite possible to believe in certain perspective and for those perspective to not be problematic. I did not mean to indicate that there aren't jerks who are Christians: such a claim would be laughed out of the forums, since we all know far better than that.

Oh, I'm well aware. You framed the question of hell in terms I wasn't familiar with at all, and I was curious. It wasn't a move to criticize. Do you have a denomination, btw? If so, which one?

Some of the most genuinely selfless people I know believe in a pretty severe version of hell, but it's my opinion that they're selfless by way temperament and religious by way of circumstance. Because they are so naturally giving and kind, their faith has become confused and knotty to accommodate their deep altruism. They were (and I hope I can elaborate on this later) in an isolated environment where they did not have to meet people with much of a chance of going there face-to-face on a regular basis, which helped them keep the natural conclusions of their beliefs abstract.

Quote from: Sajainta
Those were the most unruly, debauched, fucked-up Christians I have ever met.

Yes. I managed to leave Christianity with few hard feelings, but I think that's in part because I focused all of my loathing on John Jolly Calvin and his convenient country club of the Elect. Calvinism, imho, strips people of their empathy and pampers their sense of entitlement. It's psychologically diseased.

Not that I'm biased or anything...   :P

Quote from: Sajainta
Personally, I'm a proud reprobate.

Here, here!