Magic and Characters in CT

[Empiric]

I've taken a look at the forums on magic, and I have decided something.  Whenever one does a scientific experiment you change a variable, and leave the rest the same; but this is only applicable if a process exists.  I would propose that those involved step back for a second and try to determine something:  Is all magic the same in CT and CC?  I know, I know, this is the exact topic you've been studying; but I have yet to see something on HOW magic works, not just the nature of the matter.  Remember, the concept of gravity was discovered after experiments and documentation, it could not be scientifically proven by itself without proof.  It took many experiments, and MANY misconceptions before it could be truly represented.

These are the step by step questions I would ask of each character, and when we have an answer, I would imagine a systemic, easy to understand form of magic could in fact be determined by this process if applied to each character (And they would make an interesting encyclopedia category.)  I will update the chart below when a decision has been made regarding the answer to specific questions.  Remember, I expect VERY mixed results regarding the answers to these questions, and if you think there is a question to be added, say it!  Also, this is not a thread to specifically state the nature of magic.  It is designed to be a tool to be used elsewhere.

  This shall be called:  The Magic Equation

I have updated the list as to the positions stated thus far, and have given a description of the hero casting the spell/ability to help move things along.  I added the Chi theory as presented so far.  Deleted weapon catagory.  Updated as of December 15.
Crono: Hero of Time

  Innate Element:  Light
  Characters Physical/Elemental aspect:  Chrono's Physical appearance is that of a warrior, fast and true.  So far, has little to nothing to do with his innate.
  Characters Mental/Elemental aspect:  Chrono's character is one of 'pure' intentions, as he appears to have few to none malicious intentions; and is willing to save his allies.  He suffers in the fact that he has to save everyone else without regard for himself.
  Character Abilities:  
Cyclone-  Chrono spins around in a circle with his sword.  
Slash-  Crono manipulates his internal *Chi*, creating a wave of energy that physically manifests and travels in a straight line to his foes.  Slash has the ability to counter Masa/Munes wind techniques.  
Spincut-  Crono jump attacks his opponent with his sword.
Confuse-  Chrono manipulates his Chi, taking it to an almost magic level by creating several visages of himself from light either intentionally or unintentionally.  Chrono moves amidst these images to strike at the enemy when least expects to deal 4x damage to the enemy.
  Character Magic:  
Lightning-  Crono calls a lightning bolt.
Lightning 2-  Crono either releases stored energy which radiates around a point or the area is infused with electrical energy from outside forces.
Life-  Crono calls on a little Cherub to poke his ally back to life.
Luminaire-  Crono's Chi is manipulated to the point in which it finally gains magic properties as Chrono releases a sphere of light from his body.  The heat and transferring energy damage opposing enemies within the sphere.

Chi Theory:  Chi is a magical *aura* that a character has that reflects their personality.  Some characters have the ability to tap into their *aura* to enhance their attacks and increase their fighting potential.  Chi could be magical in nature, or it could be in part psionic.  It has yet to be determined if a character has access to chi because of Lavos or if it is a natural occurence.

[Lord J Esq]

This is a wonderful topic and is overdue for its own thread, but I shan't reply to it just yet, because, while I hate to commit myself to a backlog, I believe my next major work for the Compendium following my in-progress space-time theory will simply have to be a magic theory, as this series is too inextricably tied to magic that I could dare attempt to post in most of these threads without my own, fleshed-out understanding of magical mechanics.

~ Josh

[ZeaLitY]

Might I first ask what set of principles we're going to work under? As far as I can tell in the Magic thread, these are generally accepted:

-Heaven, Wind, Fire, Shadow compose reality.
-Magic is the biological or mechanical manipulation of these elements.
-That elements conform to one of the following three theories:
***Spekkio is incorrect, as the designers rewrote the series by adding Chrono Cross' elements
***The Cross' elements simply utilize six natural forces, such as trees and earth, and not the true roots of the basic four
***The Cross' elements are combinations of the basic four
-Lavos imbued man with magical ability for its own evolutionary ends.
-This ability remained throughout, but was severely negated after the fall of Zeal.
-Innate colors reflect one's spiritual or mental gravitation.

Can't remember what was decided on the issues of Elements being of Dragonian or Chronopolean origin and the problem of the Time Devourer using elements...although...please excuse this in the grand scheme of things, but allow me to propose something. Consider that the Time Devourer can use his Elements an infinite number of times; true elements, however, are one-time use. Thus, perhaps Lavos is simply using magic to produce element-oriented attacks. Verdict is still out.

[Empiric]

It seems I failed in appropriately describing my point.  I apologize if I have given you a false impression here, but the intention of this thread is to define and catagorize the prestated notions, to develop a framework so that the thesis you have stated can be proven and irrefutibly stand as fact.

Pretend that none of the points that Zeality mentioned have even been thought about.  In this thread is wanted PROOF!  A cause/effect relationship.  When this happens, that happens.The idea is to be able to describe the process, develop a point A that will eventually lead to the point B described by Zeality.

-Heaven, Wind, Fire, Shadow compose reality.

Okay, the intention of this article is to prove this statement by taking apart each aspect and finalizing the idea.  HOW are they combined to form the basic aspects of the game?

Magic is the biological or mechanical manipulation of these elements.

Okay, how does a person manipulate them?  What somatic and verbal components are necessary?  We see the effect, but how is it acheived?

-That elements conform to one of the following three theories:
***Spekkio is incorrect, as the designers rewrote the series by adding Chrono Cross' elements
***The Cross' elements simply utilize six natural forces, such as trees and earth, and not the true roots of the basic four
***The Cross' elements are combinations of the basic four

This is where we hit the bread and butter, the end result of the equation.  If we can take the parts of CT that we understand through the process, and compare it to the same points in CC (By taking apart each character if necessary... all of em.  I feel we might get the same effect by taking apart maybe only 8-14 of the most extreme cases.  I'll discuss that later)  We may yet be able to conclude which of those theories is more correct.  We can see how the elements interract, which may prove/disprove the Spekkio analysis.  We can determine how the elements work in the same manner, which would prove/disprove the Spekkio and natural forces theories.  With this process, (And it will be a long haul, let me tell you)  We can examine the mechanics that lead to the truths that exist.

-Lavos imbued man with magical ability for its own evolutionary ends.
-This ability remained throughout, but was severely negated after the fall of Zeal.

This would not be the main ends towards which this equation is geared, but new insight on how or in what manner could probably be harvested from what is said.

-Innate colors reflect one's spiritual or mental gravitation

This theory, while Im sure is general recognized as true, will simply be run through the gauntlet.  We want the proof that leads to the result.

The entire point of this exercise is to decompose these facts/theories into their basic forms.  Yes, we know that when we heat ice it turns into water and air; but, when we discovered the molecules behind these actions it opened up a new venue of science and understanding.  Im simply curious as to where an understanding of the basic... Chemistry of magic shall take us.  
(I was pondering the use of the word Alchemy, but that would be innapropriate as to convey a sense of mysticism.  I/We want this down to a science, no blind faith necessary.)

[V_Translanka]

A few insights from me to this thread so far...

Slash is a Magical attack. If you don't want to go so far as to call it so, since Crono learns this before obtaining Magical ability from Spekkio, then it is a form of spiritual energy.

Elements are from the earth (possibly residue from Lavos?) and were founded by the Dragonians (this is said either by a NPC or the Toma relative in CC at White Dragon Isle). It was said that the Dragonians found specific points in the earth (power points) where they could draw Elements from.

Dragonians (and Demi Humans) are said to have been around a hundred years before humans came from the continent to El Nido. This is said by a NPC on the steps in White Dragon Isle. So it could be said that it wouldn't be possible for Chronopolis to manipulate their (the Dragonians) foundings of the Elements.

Although, this NPC statement doesn't seem too possible as most of El Nido didn't exist before Chronopolis manipulated things. Of course, Gaea's Navel DID exist, and it's possible that THIS is where the Dragonians originated/found the Elements. Again though, the earlier statement of the Dragonians finding the Elements isn't based on a time-frame, and could thusly have been AFTER the manipulations of El Nido by Chronopolis.

[GrayLensman]

Slash is a Magical attack. If you don't want to go so far as to call it so, since Crono learns this before obtaining Magical ability from Spekkio, then it is a form of spiritual energy.

Slash causes lightning elemental damage, yes, but so does Robo's Shock attack.  Neither techniques are magical in nature because they do not have stars next to them.  Just as Lucca's Flame Toss causes fire elemental damage, Crono is creating a lightning elemental effect not through magic, but some physical means.

[YbrikMetaknight]

Slash is a Magical attack. If you don't want to go so far as to call it so, since Crono learns this before obtaining Magical ability from Spekkio, then it is a form of spiritual energy.

Slash causes lightning elemental damage, yes, but so does Robo's Shock attack.  Neither techniques are magical in nature because they do not have stars next to them.  Just as Lucca's Flame Toss causes fire elemental damage, Crono is creating a lightning elemental effect not through magic, but some physical means.

I've always thought of Slash, as well as Aura, as being sort of Chi-like abilities.  That is, abilities created through personal energy fields, but not magic-related.

[GrayLensman]

I've always thought of Slash, as well as Aura, as being sort of Chi-like abilities.  That is, abilities created through personal energy fields, but not magic-related.

The only evidence of Chi-like abilities or personal energy fields I can think of is the mention of people's "auras" in the Zeal Kingdom.

My, you've got an unusual aura! So, you must possess the skill, too! It must be very primitive compared to ours! You poor things!

In this case, the aura seem to be a representation of magical ability.

Your power differs from ours... In you I sense a strange aura of...kindness...

The prophet's aura is full of hatred and sorrow. He'll destroy himself, and those he loves.

From this we see that a person's aura also takes on the characteristics of his emotions.

Is this aura a personal energy field as you describe, capable of generating elemental effects in its own right, or is it simply a manifestation of a persons natural magical abilities?  Since Marle's healing tech is named "Aura" (and is not magical), it strongly suggests that people can create elemental effects though manipulation of their auras.  How would such an ability tie in with our notions of magic and was Lavos responsible for the appearance of auras in humans?

[Empiric]

Alright, Now we are rolling.

Is this aura a personal energy field as you describe, capable of generating elemental effects in its own right, or is it simply a manifestation of a persons natural magical abilities? Since Marle's healing tech is named "Aura" (and is not magical), it strongly suggests that people can create elemental effects though manipulation of their auras. How would such an ability tie in with our notions of magic and was Lavos responsible for the appearance of auras in humans?

  Consider the case of Ayla.  She is born before Lavos arrived, yet still has several abilities that could very well be concieved of as magic.  I honestly cannot think of a single way to explain Tail Spin without referring to magic in any way, and neither can I explain many of her Double/Triple techs without saying she does have the ability to at least in some manner control or harnass magic.  Maybe Chi is a form of magic that exists before Lavos?  Remember the Reptites had a form of magic (Boulders raining from the sky?  Azala's confusion attack?) so maybe, the humans might yet have a less developed form of chi themselves.  Also, the characters of CC had abilities that they could use naturally, without the assistance of elements.  Could those also be other examples of this form of Chi?  Maybe the Aura, or Chi, could have been the vehicle which Lavos used to bring magic to the humans?  Enhanced it to the point which it became magic?

Also, in a completely different point, I would like to ask that we come up with a more definite term for Chrono's innate; something other then the double classification of Heaven/Lightning.  I propose it could instead be, for our purposes, Light.  Lightning is molecules releasing energy which creates light, Life could very well be an appeal to the concept of Heaven.  This could also be an explanation for the confuse ability as it pertains to the graphics in game; as Chrono creates multiple visages of himself to strike the opponent when least expected up to four times.  Luminaire could very well be Chrono releasing light, which in turns create heat and transfers energy (Sort of how Light would power the Sun Stone, but in a FAR more intense burst.)

[ZeaLitY]

Light sounds good. By all means, let us continue character classification. One point before I post my analysis; Chrono Cross dictates that Luminaire is a release of chi energy in the form of light, or something similar to that. It notwithstanding is still a magical ability to Crono, versus a tech to Serge (it is not innate).

Marle: Hero of Time

Note: See 'Secret of Nu' article for water/life relations that may explain better Marle's status as a healer.

Innate Element: Water
Character's Physical/Elemental aspect:
-Appearance enables confusing of enemies
Character's Mental/Elemental aspect
Character's Abilities:
Aura- Marle uses Chi energy to produce a healing effect on herself
Provoke- Marle entices enemies into confusion with promiscuous movements
Character's Magic:
Ice- Marle encases an enemy in ice
Cure- From what appears to be the release of internal energy, Marle heals herself. This is most likely related to aura in some form; perhaps magic simply enhances its effect.
Haste- Marle casts a spell which reduces the time a party member must wait after attacking, perhaps rejuvenating them with water. On a sidenote, the game suggests otherwise by depicting a clock slowing down.
Ice 2- Marle summons several boulders of Ice to fall on an enemy.
Cure 2- Marle further enhances her self-healing effect.
Life 2- Marle is able to reanimate, revive, and heal fully a fallen ally.

[Empiric]

I assumed that simply because it is the simplest thing for me to deduce.  That and Marle's element is water.  Point taken.

Here is my analysis of what has been seen thus far:
Physical/Elemental aspect:
  In general, physical aspects in CT determine very little as to what the innate element is:  With one exception.  Frog is given Water almost randomly by Spekkio because he "looks like a frog."  Question becomes whether or not Glenn was naturally a blue innate, or whether an innate can change due to circumstances.

  Mental:  
  In most cases a characters mental state appeared to determine the innate color.  However, Black magic is assumed a combination of all other colors and therefor needs to be studied.  With this assumption, I would like to know:  What happens when you mix the colors in unequal proportions?

  From this question I have created the Magic Color Wheel.

Primary Colors
White:  Energy/Potential  (Scientifically a lack of color.)
Blue:   Water
Red:    Fire

1 Part Energy + 1 Part Water = Life
         (White) + (Blue)          = (Green)

1 Part Energy + 1 Part Fire    = Matter  (Need to find better word)
         (White) + (Red)           = (Yellow)

1 Part Fire      + 1 Part Water = (Impossible)
         (Red)    + (Blue)          = (Null)

1 Part Fire      + 1 Part Water + 1 Part Energy  =  Shadow
         (Red)    + (Blue)          + (White)           =  (Black)
(Scientifically a mix of all colors.)

  Red+Blue is impossible due to the opposing nature of the elements.  Think of Oil and water, both similiar in appearance and in some effects, but they cannot be mixed without Force/Energy.  A temporary mixture can be created, but it truely is not an independent mixture.  Think of Antipod in this manner, a combination without a combining force: the two elements react violently and un-mix  (Imagine if your Oil and Vinegar salad suddenly exploded because somebody used to much force in mixing the Oil/Vinegar and they suddenly released each other in one swift rush.  Improbable?  Yes, but still the best example I could think of on short term notice.)

One thing I could think of with CC was how NeoFio was created.  She is a green innate plant creature, bred in a pool and brought to life with a Lifespark from Hydra Marshes.  Blue Water + White Lifespark Energy = Green Innate?

I need to look at the Duel/Triple Techs of both games and apply this ratio to see how things stack up.

[YbrikMetaknight]

Magus: Hero of Time

Note: Magus' aptitude for all innate types can be explained by the nature of the Shadow element, which is composed of the other three.

Innate Element: Shadow
Character's Physical/Elemental aspect
-Possible advantage due to membership of Zeal royal family.
Character's Mental/Elemental aspect
-Possible advantage due to membership of Zeal royal family.
Character's Abilities:
Character's Magic:
Lightning 2- Magus either releases stored energy which radiates around a point or the area is infused with electrical energy from outside forces.
Ice 2- Magus summons several boulders of Ice to fall on an enemy.
Fire 2- Magus incites a colossal explosion that scorches the battlefield and produces a red shockwave.
Dark Bomb- Similar to Luminaire in appearance, this causes an explosion of Shadow energy on an enemy.
Magic Wall- Magus uses the Shadow element to protect against other magic.
Dark Mist- Magus invokes a malicious mist that engulfs enemies.
Black Hole- Magus, through the Shadow element, manipulates space to create a black hole or gravity well and then close it upon its elimination of an enemy.
Dark Matter- We can only infer from the graphics associated with this spell that Magus uses the Shadow element in its pure form (a triangle) to damage enemies. Perhaps, as implied by the presence of stars in the spell, he is using the dark matter that is thought to occupy most of space.

One interesting observation I made from this was that Shadow spells usually come with a triangle, perhaps implying that the element's composition is made up of Light, Fire, and Water linked in such a way.

Another fact worthy of noting here is that Magus, who came from the all-magic Kingdom of Zeal, uses only magic in his tech skills, whereas all the other characters use either no magic (Ayla and Robo) or magic with non-magic (Marle, as the most magical of the rest, still has her first two non-magical tech skills, and the other three have non-magic scattered throughout their magic spells).

[Empiric]

Alright, time to do some fancy footwork with one of the ability questions

    The Nature of Shock:
    Technically Spekkio specifies Robo's innate as Shadow.  He is a machine, and therefor may require all elements in order to operate, thus creating the black innate (this could also explain the Grob-mans balck innate from CC.)  Shock could be that he releases his component energy, and then dilutes it into its base elemental energies, creating a lightning shock.  Remember that based on my color wheel, Red+Blue require White to mix.  Release all the energy required to mix the elements and you have an electric attack that uses the trinity as a base.  
   
We see throughout the game that occasionally Robo needs to 'vent'.  Something he does after holding the doors open and such acts of increased activity.  Maybe what happens is that he consumes the red/blue energy to stay active, and then stores up the Light energy in an internal battery.  Whenever he has an increased bout of activity, he needs to 'vent' excess light energy that he couldn't otherwise handle.  Shock could simply be the residue stored in the battery to be used at a later time.  The trinity base ensues.

[ZeaLitY]

There are some things to be addressed; we'll go point by point.

Most analysis is based on empirical evidence, which is directly observable in the games themselves; we should try to limit what we can so that we do not fly too far away from hard evidence.

For example, it is said white/lightning & heaven as a lack of color; unfortunately, this is not exactly true as the basic element system is not truly chromatic. We should only believe what we can gain directly from experimentation and observance --that water has healing properties, shadow has magic-protective properties, fire has physically-protective properties, certain elements can be combined, etc.

There is no direct mention of Chi in the games; 'aura' seems to be ones general output of feeling, perhaps; this exists in real life subjectively as one may feel dread around an especially cold person. These are normal psychological reactions; call it emotional intelligence or otherwise depending on which theory is being used.

You were right before; borderline innate magical ability easily accounts for the pre-Spekkio elemental techs. However, an Enlightened One in Zeal was able to determine the nature of the Travelers' magical abilities from their Auras, so I think it is more than just emotional intelligence. Perhaps there are certain things one magic user can determine from another. Could magic users emit some sort of background elemental energy field which takes on the characteristics of the user's mind? Another Enlightened One could read the Prophets emotions, and I think Magus would be very secretive about the inner workings of his mind unless he had no choice in the matter.

Robo operating on base elements is improbable considering these elements form reality and are most likely base 'energies' or perhaps intangible, microscopic building blocks. Also, who's to assume that in 1999 A.D. scientists were capable of isolating the four basic elements? In 2400 A.D., the only user of magic is Belthasar; he specifically states that magic was long dead, leading us to believe that elements had not been discovered.

If elemental technology was available in 1999 AD, and hence 2400 AD, why would Chronopolis put so much effort into uncovering Dragonian Elements? This makes me doubt that any machines in that era could manipulate elemental energy directly. The only known elemental machine is the Mammon Machine in Zeal, which needed a human operator, Schala, and had a heart of Dreamstone. Could other "magical" artifacts from Zeal (Gold Stud, etc.) operate on elemental principles?

Good point; the aforementioned quote by Belthasar and your quote strike a fine division between the future and Zeal -- while the future operates on perhaps classical sciences, Zeal was indeed able to isolate the three basic elements as seen in their representations in books.

Here follows GrayLensman's two cents on the matters.

From this question I have created the Magic Color Wheel.

Primary Colors
White: Energy/Potential (Scientifically a lack of color.)
Blue: Water
Red: Fire

1 Part Energy + 1 Part Water = Life
(White) + (Blue) = (Green)

1 Part Energy + 1 Part Fire = Matter (Need to find better word)
(White) + (Red) = (Yellow)

1 Part Fire + 1 Part Water = (Impossible)
(Red) + (Blue) = (Null)

1 Part Fire + 1 Part Water + 1 Part Energy = Shadow
(Red) + (Blue) + (White) = (Black)
(Scientifically a mix of all colors.)

Fire and Water elemental energy combine to form Shadow elemental energy (Antipode), and therein lies the problem. The elements do not combine like light or pigments. I'm not positive about Lightning & Water or Lightning & Fire, but any other combination of elements produces Shadow.

The Nature of Shock:
Technically Spekkio specifies Robo's innate as Shadow. He is a machine, and therefor may require all elements in order to operate, thus creating the black innate (this could also explain the Grob-mans balck innate from CC.) Shock could be that he releases his component energy, and then dilutes it into its base elemental energies, creating a lightning shock. Remember that based on my color wheel, Red+Blue require White to mix. Release all the energy required to mix the elements and you have an electric attack that uses the trinity as a base.

We see throughout the game that occasionally Robo needs to 'vent'. Something he does after holding the doors open and such acts of increased activity. Maybe what happens is that he consumes the red/blue energy to stay active, and then stores up the Light energy in an internal battery. Whenever he has an increased bout of activity, he needs to 'vent' excess light energy that he couldn't otherwise handle. Shock could simply be the residue stored in the battery to be used at a later time. The trinity base ensues.

Because he is a machine, Robo can not use magic and has no innate element. However, Robo's weapons can produce elemental effects. Just as Lucca's napalm bombs cause fire elemental damage, Robo's lasers produce Shadow elemental effects, Area Bomb is Fire, and Shock is lightning elemental.

We know absolutely nothing about the internal workings of Robo's systems, or if he can manipulate the elements directly. However, it does seem that magic or its mechanical equivalent is not required to produce elemental effects.

Finally, about Robo's periodic venting, this could be simply steam from his coolant system or compressed air from his pneumatic joints. We just don't know.

Lastly, all theories are encouraged in order to round out possibilities, but a scientific prerequisite is that they must be based on empirical or factual evidence. Keep up with the 'Magic in CT/CC' thread; Aitrus has expanded upon GrayLensman's theory.

Oh yes! Lensman, have you drafted a name for it?

[Empiric]

Red+Blue is impossible due to the opposing nature of the elements. Think of Oil and water, both similiar in appearance and in some effects, but they cannot be mixed without Force/Energy. A temporary mixture can be created, but it truely is not an independent mixture. Think of Antipod in this manner, a combination without a combining force: the two elements react violently and un-mix (Imagine if your Oil and Vinegar salad suddenly exploded because somebody used to much force in mixing the Oil/Vinegar and they suddenly released each other in one swift rush. Improbable? Yes, but still the best example I could think of on short term notice.)

  Er hem.  This, I believe explained the theoretical relationship between Red/Blue.   I apologize for putting the lack of color thing into my color wheel, wasn't even thinking.  Also, to continue the wheel.  

  Green+Yellow = Black
  (White+Blue) + (White+Red) = (2White+Red+Blue) = Shadow

 
 

Chrono Cross dictates that Luminaire is a release of chi energy in the form of light, or something similar to that

 

There is no direct mention of Chi in the games

 
Please Clarify your position, since you said both of these things.

  Also

 

Because he is a machine, Robo can not use magic and has no innate element

  Unfortunately I specified the color, but not what internally would make that color.  Since things have innate elemental properties (I use the Bolt Sword that is found in the Future as an example.  It is found in the sewers between the main area and Death Mountain.  Now question, if they are unable to extract elemental properties, how do you explain that?)  Then whenever something is composed of multiple elemental attributes then it might as well take on the aspects of those elemental attributes.  Now in the game, it is said Robo cannot use magic, but I beg to differ that he has no innate element.  Spekkio says he has no soul, but not that he has no innate.  In the game menu, it states that Robo is Shadow.  The sum of the parts in this case does create the man.  Now what could those parts be?
  Since elemental innates are tied in with specific physical forms, (White=Lightning, Blue=Water, etc.)  White could be the electrical energy that flows through his system, blue could be the coolent system, fire could be the physical components that make him.  THAT part is theoretical (and mostly BS), but just because we do not have a physical diagram of how Robo is made does not mean we cannot deduce based on what we see.