Author Topic: Great President Bush  (Read 11641 times)

Sentenal

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« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2005, 09:05:55 pm »
Leebot, I'll keep my nation-state, thank you very much.  I don't care what the hell the rest of the world does, as long as it doesn't threaten me.  And if it does, I better hope my government will do something about it.  Get over your want for a World Government...!

Damnit, you see, this is what I didn't want to get into!

Zaperking

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« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2005, 08:12:49 am »
Human beings are stupid.. And when I say that, I include myself. We can't do anything right, we have laws that have loopholes in them, but are the most important laws. Our governments only care about money, and getting their way. Can't wait till 2012 (when the world ends thanks to the Mayan prophecy) or 2060 (when God casts Earth into flames - Isaac Newton predicted this from reading the bible) or 3797/3979 (forgot which one) when the Earth will completely be destroyed thanks to Nostradamus' predictions.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2005, 12:12:54 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
Human beings are stupid.. And when I say that, I include myself. We can’t do anything right, we have laws that have loopholes in them, but are the most important laws. Our governments only care about money, and getting their way. Can’t wait till 2012 (when the world ends thanks to the Mayan prophecy) or 2060 (when God casts Earth into flames - Isaac Newton predicted this from reading the bible) or 3797/3979 (forgot which one) when the Earth will completely be destroyed thanks to Nostradamus’ predictions.

This is what you're talking about killing off: A group of homo sapiens captured on film in their native habitat

I’d just as soon humanity not kill itself off. But all those clamoring for it are welcome to cull themselves for great justice. We’d be better off with fewer fatalist cynics.

For as stupid as people can sometimes be, stupidity is not the hallmark of humanity. It is our intelligence that sets us apart, and our creative, rational minds are the spice of the Earth. Our accomplishments of science and art, and literature, and engineering, and philosophy, are unprecedented in the history of the world, and perhaps are unique. Even our innate physical abilities, when they are not being repressed by government or some religious authority, are a source for pleasures both subtle and gross, and the fantastic natural world in which we live grants us opportunities of every stripe.

Something of that wonderment gets lost in a conventional political discussion. Here we are gadabouting the message boards of a video game that has touched all of us in some meaningful way, and yet we continually ignore the importance of reaching up from beyond the mundane into a better, higher way of thinking. I just want to slap people who don’t see that. To me it’s so obvious. ZeaLitY too, in his own way, recognizes some part of this, through his dedication to this place. But we are social creatures, and our setting often defines us. So more often, I find myself here arguing with nationalists who can’t see beyond their own flag, conservative dead-enders who hate everything beautiful and good within our culture, and religious thugs who think pleasure is a sin and guilt is the essence of our species.

Many of these types are kids; their enmity is more rehearsed than it is genuine. Like AuraTwilight’s comment about people deserving to die. I was a kid too, once. I had quite a similar thought before I smartened up, so I can be more forgiving than most. If people do deserve to die, contrary to Leebot’s well-intentioned but overly idealistic plea for peace on Earth and good will toward everyone, poverty is not a good way to decide that, nor is the fact that some folks live in a city below sea level and prone to tropical storms.

And then there’s Eriol’s comment about the UN losing its soul the minute it gave “Communist China” a seat on the Security Council. By the way he says it, you can tell he’s so young he doesn’t even know what he’s talking about. Some television or pastor told him what to think, and kids will do it. China is such a wonderful country; a competitor to the United States but a very beautiful place, with wonderful people and fascinating customs. They are as good, and as flawed a people as we are. And they are a powerful country, even more so today. They deserve that Council seat.

In these rare moments, where someone like you, Zaperking, makes a comment so stupid that all of us can realize just how stupid we too have been to participate in such petty, pointless bickering, I can remind myself that the wonders of the world are where our attention ought to lie. I hate to sound sappy, but we’ve gotten away from the Chrono spirit here. Humanity does not deserve to be destroyed, unless we ourselves act as the agents of our demise. And I for one will have no part in that.

What is that Magus quote that so many of you seem to love?

If history is to change, let it change.
If the world is to be destroyed, so be it.
If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh.


That’s precisely the kind of thinking that’ll get us all killed. Suppose we follow Sentenal’s advice and spit on the rest of the world? Is that really in our national interest, like he says? No. That sort of misbehavior destroys the nations who practice it, especially in these ever-globalizing times. Or suppose we listen to your advice, Zaper, and wait around until we kill ourselves off? Didn’t it occur to you that believing we’ll all kill ourselves off might actually help make it come true, by our actions and motives? Or suppose we listen to nightmare975, praising certain leaders blindly and following our ideology as though it were infallible? I keep remembering how many people in the 2004 United States presidential election insisted to the news reporters who interviewed them that, although they disagreed with President Bush on the issues, they liked that he stands his ground rather than changing his mind. I saw a political cartoon shortly before the election. Kerry and Bush are driving in two separate cars down a highway. Kerry is fumbling over a map, explaining some long, complicated detour that will eventually get them to where they’re going. So why isn’t he just going straight ahead, like Bush? Bush is driving full speed ahead through a warning blockade “Bridge Out Ahead”. And where our leader goes, we have been sure to follow. The country and the whole world is in distress. Are we being patted on the head for our dutiful loyalty to George Bush? No. It just gets worse and worse with this guy. Yet he still has a loyal core, who will follow him to the ends of the Earth—to where Bush is certainly intent on going. And, so, if his username is any indication, I think I know how nightmare975 sleeps at night.

Political involvement is a basic form of literacy. It is just as important as knowing how to read, because politics in the abstract sense is what shapes our world. And understanding how that works is a sure route to personal awareness. Politics is not a synonym for corruption and depravity, and governments are not innately awful. These cynical stereotypes are a function of powerless people who wish to go on being powerless. What do I mean by that? I mean that many people resign themselves to a less ideal world by blaming their ills on “powers that be” whom they feel they can never touch. Thus the ills continue. This ties back to your comment, Zaperking, that all humans are stupid, and that we can’t do anything right. That’s patently false. We are an imperfect species, growing up with no parents and no guidelines. Sheer chance gave us the opportunity to make something of ourselves, and bring a little self-awareness to the world. The dream of the human race, expressed vividly in the floating Kingdom of Zeal, is a long way in coming. And the fact that Mr. Kato and his team decided to put that paradise in the human past, is a potent reminder that our sense of entitlement is guaranteed only by our eternal vigilance. No one will save us if we fall. And the higher we become, the further we have to fall, and the longer it will take to restore what was. We are stupid in the sense that we have so much left to learn, and that so many of us cling to ignorant delusions, but we are not stupid in the pejorative sense that you used. Many times I think the world could come to its senses in a single night, if only people realized that, in all its full ramifications.

Daniel Krispin, like many fire-and-brimstone Christians, says we are dragging the world slowly to its doom, and I’d like to prove him wrong despite all his efforts and those of his ilk, by building a civilization that will last beyond the imagination of mortal humankind, with each generation able to seek out its own, unique paradise. I’ll bet you never figured that paradise can exist right here, right now, but you’d have been wrong. Every time we encounter a deeply satisfying moment, for however short or long a blink of the eye it may last, we are within such a fabled place.

In those moments, and in the unwavering ambition to seek out paradise in all its forms and beyond every horizon, and therein pursue the one true Paradise, with a capital P, I thankfully enjoy a moment of repose from the sheer puerile inanity of petty political bickering. It puts this whole thread and our other discussions here into their proper perspective. The world is so much more contenting, when you can see it for what it truly is. And every blunder every human being has ever made, is but a thin slick of oil atop the very deepest ocean. This is a fine world, and we are a fine part of it. I hope you someday find the imagination to agree with me.

V_Translanka

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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2005, 01:15:41 pm »
Is there any specific good human act and/or creation that equals in good the specific badness of, say, what Hitler did?

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2005, 01:48:25 pm »
Quote from: V_Translanka
Is there any specific good human act and/or creation that equals in good the specific badness of, say, what Hitler did?

If you're looking for something that stands out as starkly and suddenly as the Holocaust, except represents a human feat of good rather than one of evil, the problem is that the good acts preserve or improve people's quality of life, or expand it to more people, and this is less noticeable than an enormous body count. So if I speak of things like the invention of mains power or pasteurization, or the construction of the Panama Canal or the Delta Project, or the publication of the Magna Carta, or the 1st, 15th, or 19th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, or the fight against Apartheid in South Africa, or the creation of the big labor unions, or the big industries that preceded them, or the broader Age of Enlightenment, or Home Rule in Ireland, or the foundation of the Library at Alexandria, or Octavian's victory over Antony and Cleopatra in Alexandria on land and at sea in 30 B.C., or the Marshall Plan, or the development of a printing press, or any of these other things...there is no question that all of these greatly preserved, improved, or expanded the quality of life for countless people. But whether or not you can bring yourself to acknowledge these above the raw emotional obscenity of the Holocaust, is up to you.

Addendum: If you try to weigh humanity's worth in terms of what we have already accomplished, rather than what our potential is as a sentient species, you are bound to fail. You will certainly conclude that humanity is a barbarian race of savages who slaughter one another over tribal god images and luxuriate themselves at the expense of their own kind and the health of the world. Only the truest of optimists would look at the human past and say, "There is good here." And yet it is not the human past that interests me, but the human future. Civilization has steadily liberalized--in horrific fits and spurts--since its very inception. Every generation faces the threat of destruction by its own elements, and by the dubious inheritances of history, and yet we have always managed to overcome our own weaknesses, sometimes in the course of days, and sometimes across the generations. All the good acts in human history combined are worth less than the single image of what we may yet accomplish.

Leebot

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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2005, 01:49:46 pm »
Quote from: V_Translanka
Is there any specific good human act and/or creation that equals in good the specific badness of, say, what Hitler did?

Laughter.

<.<
>.>

Oh wait, that outweighs it. What other species on earth knows the joy of humor? Aside from orgasm, it's the only innately pleasurable act that exists. People tend to think there's less good in the world because the huge good acts stand out less than the huge bad acts.

I could get into more, but I'm just going to leave at this: Humor is the ultimate achievement of humanity.

Quote from: Lord J esq
...Leebot’s well-intentioned but overly idealistic plea for peace on Earth and good will toward everyone...

Oh yeah, I know that human beings are imperfect, and it will make this incredibly difficult to achieve. But that doesn't take away from the fact that no one aims for the circle outside the bullseye. If you want people to change, preach the virtues of the perfect, in hopes that people will at the very least work their way up.

Quote from: Lord J esq
The dream of the human race, expressed vividly in the floating Kingdom of Zeal...

I'm not arguing with your point here, but with the metaphor. Even Zeal isn't perfect. Leaving aside consorting with Lavos, the Earthbound were shunned and treated as less than human. Zeal was, in the end, a nation that rose itself up without raising others as well (it wasn't bad enough that it had to tear others down, at least). And then, it fell due to its own faults.

Eriol

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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2005, 01:55:45 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
And then there’s Eriol’s comment about the UN losing its soul the minute it gave “Communist China” a seat on the Security Council. By the way he says it, you can tell he’s so young he doesn’t even know what he’s talking about. Some television or pastor told him what to think, and kids will do it. China is such a wonderful country; a competitor to the United States but a very beautiful place, with wonderful people and fascinating customs. They are as good, and as flawed a people as we are. And they are a powerful country, even more so today. They deserve that Council seat.

You missed the point, but that's OK.  No less than I expect from you.  And no, I'm not young either.

The point was that they didn't merely GIVE China a seat, they TOOK IT AWAY from the only democracy that represented China: Taiwan.  And subsequently the tyranny that is China has done everything possible to get NOBODY to recognize Taiwan's right to exist, or even recognize it as more than a rogue province that is China's right to govern (read supress).

And they hardly lost their soul there.  The UN had done that from the moment of it's inception by giving the USSR a seat in an organization that valued "democracy".  And every time since then they let a dictator in, they went further and further down the wrong path.

Sure everything else you said about china is relatively true (not everything is rosy), but when dealing internationally you almost never have the luxury of dealing with the people and the government seperately.  A shame, but true.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2005, 02:01:49 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: Lord J esq
The dream of the human race, expressed vividly in the floating Kingdom of Zeal...

I'm not arguing with your point here, but with the metaphor. Even Zeal isn't perfect. Leaving aside consorting with Lavos, the Earthbound were shunned and treated as less than human. Zeal was, in the end, a nation that rose itself up without raising others as well (it wasn't bad enough that it had to tear others down, at least). And then, it fell due to its own faults.

An imperfect dream is tomorrow's bedrock for a more perfect dream. Zeal was a paradise before it became corrupted by Lavos, a stunning achievement of human ambition and dedication. And argue that all human acts since the touching of the Frozen Flame are impure, argue that if you must, but it is as dubious a piece of logic as the doctrine of original sin. The power of a rational human being is with the clarity of the mind's eye.

We can take any number of lessons from the destruction of Zeal...but the notion that we are doomed by our very nature, is not one of them.

V_Translanka

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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2005, 02:04:10 pm »
Yeah, I just couldn't think of anything...Specific inventions didn't seem right...but I suppose there are some, like antiseptics, to delve into Donnie Darko :P Go soap!

I dunno about laughter though...Hyena's laugh...but I suppose you mean humor? I mean, I know laughing is nice 'n' all...but does it help do anything? I mean, if you're sad, does laughing stop your sadness?

Alright, I can already tell this is getting into absurd territory...So, I'm gonna stop now...

Leebot

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« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2005, 02:19:39 pm »
Quote from: V_Translanka
Yeah, I just couldn't think of anything...Specific inventions didn't seem right...but I suppose there are some, like antiseptics, to delve into Donnie Darko :P Go soap!

I dunno about laughter though...Hyena's laugh...but I suppose you mean humor? I mean, I know laughing is nice 'n' all...but does it help do anything? I mean, if you're sad, does laughing stop your sadness?

Alright, I can already tell this is getting into absurd territory...So, I'm gonna stop now...

Not absurd, just really philosophical. Forgetting about religious arguments for the moment, we really have to decide what should really be considered good. What you're describing there, "does laughing stop your sadness?" is avoiding pain, and that's part of it. But it isn't all. If it were, the ultimate act of good would be to simultaneously nuke all of humanity so they would experience no more pain.

The other have of the equation is to maximize pleasure. We've evolved, fortunately enough, so that certain acts are pleasurable, and so that we can get into a happy state of mind. If we couldn't find this, there would be absolutely no point to our continued existence.

As I sometimes put it: When you boil it down, pleasure is pleasurable, and pain is painful. Every other action we take should derive from that.

And the hyena's laugh isn't really based out of humor, it's just a survival tactic. As far as we know, no other animal knows humor. Some have shown other behaviors normally thought to apply only to humans--such as playing, which you'll see in dogs, dolphins, and even octopi. Granted, I'm still not ruling out a lot of other sentient traits in dolphins. It was seen remarkably during the Tsunami last year that a lot of domesticated animals would act to protect humans, who they had been trained to love. But in addition to this, wild dolphins somehow identified humans on ships and guided them out to safer waters. They acted in a fundamentally moral manner, helping out perfect strangers for no gain of their own.

Gotta love the dolphins!

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2005, 02:34:28 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
As I sometimes put it: When you boil it down, pleasure is pleasurable, and pain is painful. Every other action we take should derive from that.!

This is the central utilitarian guideline, and also its essential flaw. To whom does this doctrine apply? If we apply it to individuals, well, it just so happens that I'd probably feel pretty good about shooting Bill O'Reilly right now, but I'll bet you he wouldn't. Conversely, if we apply it to societies, then individuals on their own become worthless in the name of the greater good. To whom does this doctrine apply, for it to succeed in its intent?

The conflict between "do no harm" and "seek pleasure but avoid pain" rests on the fact that people's own definitions of pain and pleasure are often mutually exclusive from one another. (That's why I mentioned Paradise with a capital P in my little essay earlier; it implies a hypothetical state where no one's paradise treads on anyone else's.)

So how do we get around this minor problem, Mr. Guru of Time? Is the flaw with utilitarianism one that can be solved?

Sentenal

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« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2005, 02:58:48 pm »
Quote
Suppose we follow Sentenal’s advice and spit on the rest of the world? Is that really in our national interest, like he says? No.


Sentenal would like to clarify.  I did not mean to spit on the rest of the world.  This is what I ment:  We let the rest of the world do its thing, unless it threatens us doing our thing.  Live and let live, as long as its mutual.  Thats not spitting on the rest of the world, thats doing what the rest of the world wants; less American envolvment.

V_Translanka

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« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2005, 03:18:05 pm »
Absurd...Philosophical...Absurdly Philosophical...Same difference 8)

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2005, 04:59:51 pm »
Ermmm hmm, yea I don't really watch the news much, so only the really big stuff like his 9/11 and Katrina help is all I really know about. damn byast news networks.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2005, 07:51:57 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
Quote
Suppose we follow Sentenal’s advice and spit on the rest of the world? Is that really in our national interest, like he says? No.


Sentenal would like to clarify.  I did not mean to spit on the rest of the world.  This is what I ment:  We let the rest of the world do its thing, unless it threatens us doing our thing.  Live and let live, as long as its mutual.  Thats not spitting on the rest of the world, thats doing what the rest of the world wants; less American envolvment.


Ie. isolationist, how America was before WWI. Is that what you mean?