Poll

Did you lose anybody in the attack?

Yes
0 (0%)
No
12 (100%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: September 11, 2005, 12:35:31 pm

Author Topic: Never Forget...  (Read 15528 times)

nightmare975

  • Architect of Kajar
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3263
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2005, 08:53:41 pm »
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
The thing is, he didn't deal with Katrina, and that makes him a bad president.


Yes he did, he has sent out rescue planes, food, water, everything! It is the survivors who are bad. Shooting at everything they can see. If you ask me, they shouldn't get help with the way they act.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2005, 08:56:05 pm »
Quote from: nightmare975
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
The thing is, he didn't deal with Katrina, and that makes him a bad president.


Yes he did, he has sent out rescue planes, food, water, everything! It is the survivors who are bad. Shooting at everything they can see. If you ask me, they shouldn't get help with the way they act.


Now now, lets not use that broad a brush...

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2005, 09:12:08 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
Quote from: nightmare975
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
The thing is, he didn't deal with Katrina, and that makes him a bad president.


Yes he did, he has sent out rescue planes, food, water, everything! It is the survivors who are bad. Shooting at everything they can see. If you ask me, they shouldn't get help with the way they act.


Now now, lets not use that broad a brush...

I don't think nightmare975 was being serious. No one would prop up Bush at the expense of the disaster survivors.

nightmare975

  • Architect of Kajar
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3263
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2005, 09:13:45 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Sentenal
Quote from: nightmare975
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
The thing is, he didn't deal with Katrina, and that makes him a bad president.


Yes he did, he has sent out rescue planes, food, water, everything! It is the survivors who are bad. Shooting at everything they can see. If you ask me, they shouldn't get help with the way they act.


Now now, lets not use that broad a brush...

I don't think nightmare975 was being serious. No one would prop up Bush at the expense of the disaster survivors.


You know what makes it worse? People blaming Bush for the Hurricane!

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2005, 09:16:06 pm »
Well, Bush didn't cause the hurricane itself. That much is obvious. But he caused the second disaster, and is responsible for most of the deaths that occured in New Orleans in particular, and for some of the deaths in the rest of the region.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2005, 09:18:06 pm »
What, the leevies breaking?  I didn't realize he stapped C4 on them and blew them up...  Or are you talking about the lawless-ness?  Ain't his fault there either.

Silvercry

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
    • The Great Silvercry's Blog
Never Forget...
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2005, 09:21:56 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Well, Bush didn't cause the hurricane itself. That much is obvious. But he caused the second disaster, and is responsible for most of the deaths that occured in New Orleans in particular, and for some of the deaths in the rest of the region.


And how is that exactly? Save for the creation of the Department of Homeland security, which tied up FEMA's hands with added red tape, I mean.  That much obvious.  Of course, had both organizations shown a little foresight (they did have a week or warning after all) even that wouldn’t have delayed aid as much as it did.  And the super ‘we can take a cat-5 hurricane!!!!!11111oneone’ levies breaking AFTER the hurricane was gone didn’t help either.

Bush is guilty of plenty.  He doesn’t need manufactured wrong-doing as well.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2005, 09:25:46 pm »
It was a cat. 1 storm until a few days before it hit.  Blame rests on the local/state government.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2005, 09:30:51 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
What, the leevies breaking?  I didn't realize he stapped C4 on them and blew them up...  Or are you talking about the lawless-ness?  Ain't his fault there either.

The Bush administration systematically cut funding for levee and floodwall upgrades in New Orleans due to the incredible expense of the Iraq war and the soaring deficits his administration had built up. Bush also diverted Army Corps of Engineers resources away from the effort and into Iraq.

Very much his criminal liability is of two prongs. The first prong is his administration's failure to prevent the floodwalls from having failed in the first place. If that money had been spent, New Orleans would not have sunk.

The second prong, of course, is his bungled administration of the federal response once the disaster had occured. This resulted in a much higher loss of life.

Quote from: Silvercry
Save for the creation of the Department of Homeland security, which tied up FEMA's hands with added red tape, I mean.  That much obvious.  Of course, had both organizations shown a little foresight (they did have a week or warning after all) even that wouldn’t have delayed aid as much as it did.  And the super ‘we can take a cat-5 hurricane!!!!!11111oneone’ levies breaking AFTER the hurricane was gone didn’t help either.

Your understanding of the facts is incomplete at best. FEMA was neutered during the Bush administration; its entire upper ranks were given to people who had little or no experience in managing disasters.

Your bit about the levees is incoherent...I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Quote from: Silvercry
Bush is guilty of plenty.  He doesn’t need manufactured wrong-doing as well.

In this case, Bush and some of his staff are guilty of criminal neglect and manslaughter en masse. I personally rank it as a crime against humanity as stipulated under international law.

Silvercry

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
    • The Great Silvercry's Blog
Never Forget...
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2005, 09:34:30 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
It was a cat. 1 storm until a few days before it hit.  Blame rests on the local/state government.


True.  A lot of people forget that fact, as well as the fact that it crossed over Florida with nowhere never that level devastation before it entered the gulf of Mexico.  It blew up in the gulf, in size and power, going from “just another Ivan,” into a “Betsy Part II: This Time Its Personal”

A lot could have been done that wasn’t done to save lives in the aftermath.  But blaming Bush just because it’s in style these days accomplishes nothing when it’s not his fault.  I’m no fan of Bush, but I believe in giving credit when credit is due.  And this one isn’t his fault.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2005, 09:41:30 pm »
Please see the thread I have just created to continue this off-topic discussion. Thanks.

AuraTwilight

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1524
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2005, 09:44:29 pm »
I didn't lose anyone in the attack. I'm asian. So...um....I hope you guys get reimbursed for your two little towers. Your little book trilogy will live on. Anyway, as for the Katrina discussion...

Quote
Blame rests on the local/state government.


Exactly. What would he have done? People overestimate the power of the president. He's not omniscient of every problem in America, nor does he have the authority to deal with everything. He can only do what the Senate allows him to do, and then the Supreme Court has to approve it.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2005, 12:14:55 am »
Quote
The Bush administration systematically cut funding for levee and floodwall upgrades in New Orleans due to the incredible expense of the Iraq war and the soaring deficits his administration had built up. Bush also diverted Army Corps of Engineers resources away from the effort and into Iraq.


*sigh*

Take a look here: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/09/0902_050902_katrina_levees_2.html

Specifically, this:
Quote
Until the day before Katrina's arrival, New Orleans's 350 miles (560 kilometers) of levees were undergoing a feasibility study to examine the possibility of upgrading them to withstand a Category Four or Five storm.
Corps officials say the study, which began in 2000, will take several years to complete.

Upgrading the system would take as long as 20 to 25 years, according to Al Naomi, the Corps' senior project manager for the New Orleans District.


Basically, here it is.  Did Bush cut the funding?  Yes.  Did it make a difference?  No.  It would take a few years for the study, which would bring it to about 2002-2004 for the study completion, then add the 20-25 years to actually do something.

So in short: No, the funding cut didn't affect it.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2005, 12:37:10 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
Basically, here it is.  Did Bush cut the funding?  Yes.  Did it make a difference?  No.  It would take a few years for the study, which would bring it to about 2002-2004 for the study completion, then add the 20-25 years to actually do something.

So in short: No, the funding cut didn't affect it.

The floodwalls which breached, did so as the result of overflow waters that then eroded the ground underneath these walls. This danger was understood before the study you mention.

The failure here is that, prior to the hurricane actually happening, the probability of such a storm as Katrina was so low that there was no political willpower to divert monies for improving the floodwalls. Would this have been different under a Democratic administration and Congress? I don't know; but I do know that politicians who ignore dangers because of their statistical improbability, and then get stuck out in the rain when those dangers come to pass, deserve to be held responsible for failing to use their resources more wisely. Bush decided national disaster preparedness wasn't important, and now I and every other patriotic citizen is going to rake him across the coals for it. We have seen once and for all the result of four years of his administration's attempts to make this nation better able to cope with an emergency.

Let's be honest. If everything about this situation were the same, except that it was a Democrat in the White House and Republicans on the state and local level, you'd be blaming the man in Washington. That's the difference between us. I'd be blaming the guilty party; you're looking to blame liberals. The fact that Bush is at fault for this, rather than a liberal, is just one more incentive for me to prosecute the case against him with that much more zeal. I also understand that state officials bear some responsibility. Primarily, their guilt has to do with the lack of proper coordination. And the governor and senior senator are Democrats. Well, tough. They're in trouble too.

But the lion's share of this disaster is Bush's fault, and do not think that we're going to let you conservatives forget it. The dangers of floodwall collapse were known years in advance--decades, really--and the funding for improving those weaknesses could have been made available many years ago, rather than being cut.

Maybe or maybe not it would have made a difference in time for Katrina to strike...but it would have been the correct effort, and it would have relieved this administration of a big slice of its guilt.

Hadriel

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Never Forget...
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2005, 12:43:00 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Let's be honest. If everything about this situation were the same, except that it was a Democrat in the White House and Republicans on the state and local level, you'd be blaming the man in Washington. That's the difference between us. I'd be blaming the guilty party; you're looking to blame liberals.


That's an assumption; not at all an unfounded one, but still an assumption.