Author Topic: Vehicles: Epoch and Blackbird  (Read 9431 times)

Kazuki

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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2005, 06:54:55 pm »
That's true...he could have rememberd bits of the blueprint for an old design and started anew. But that's a good point with Dalton recognising the Epoch as a Belthasar creation.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2005, 12:14:00 am »
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Dalton recognizes Epoch after the fall, he says something along the lines of "That looks like the machine Belthasar was working on. You don't deserve such a toy! It will be my personal chariot!"

That's a very good point. It probably establishes decisively that the Epoch was created in part or in full back in the Dark Ages of Zeal.

The Epoch from 2,300 AD could be a different model that Belthasar built from scratch though.

There is an old maxim called Occam's Razor, which holds that quantities should not be multiplied needlessly. In other words, it is an extra level of work to assume, without canonical support, that there was some prototype Epoch in 12,000 B.C., similar enough to Crono & Co.'s that Dalton mistook the one for the other.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2005, 12:54:37 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
There is an old maxim called Occam's Razor, which holds that quantities should not be multiplied needlessly. In other words, it is an extra level of work to assume, without canonical support, that there was some prototype Epoch in 12,000 B.C., similar enough to Crono & Co.'s that Dalton mistook the one for the other.


Occam's Razor is a deductive tool, but it is not a law.  We clearly see Belthasar arrive in 2300 AD without the Epoch in his possession.  Unless the prototype Epoch followed him from 12000 BC, he would have had to build a new version.

Quote
OLD MAN: Interesting. So he actually
   finished the Wings of Time.

   In fact, gave his life for it!

   Why not put that device to good use?
   Take it to the ancient Land of Magic!


Gaspar suggests that the Epoch was not completed in 12,000 BC, making that unlikely.  Also, if the Epoch was already capable of time travel, I don't think Belthasar would voluntarily remain in the future voluntarily.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2005, 01:22:11 am »
I had actually thought of that as I was typing my previous post. I dismissed the concern because we see that the Epoch is able to follow Crono & Co. without their being aboard:

Quote from: Chrono Trigger
Lucca: Epoch!
   What happened to it?

ELDER: Your ship is quite sturdy and
   safe.
   It's almost as if it followed you
   here...

So, to bring everything together, there is a canonical precedent for the Epoch traveling without anyone aboard, presumably in order to remain near its operator. Conversely, there is no canonical evidence that there were two Epochs. Furthermore, the Epoch seems to have a spirit of some kind, inasmuch as it is a named character and Crono & Co. are very affectionate toward it, and Robo describes it as a concentration of spiritual energy. This makes it something of an individual, who to duplicate would be unthinkable. Occam's Razor, which you are right is not a "law" by any measurement--although I never alleged that it was--does provide for the reasoning not to assume that two Epochs existed, when a less troublesome, canonically supported explanation is available.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2005, 09:18:03 am »
But if the Epoch is already functional when Belthasar goes to 2,300 AD (or something like 2,290 AD), why doesn't he go to another time-line instead of letting himself die?

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2005, 09:35:30 am »
Quote from: Chrono'99
But if the Epoch is already functional when Belthasar goes to 2,300 AD (or something like 2,290 AD), why doesn't he go to another time-line instead of letting himself die?

That seems to be a moot question, since Belthasar put the Epoch in storage anyway. And you know how stereotypical old wise men are in Japanese culture...they love to send you on the quest instead of doing it themselves. Maybe Belthasar figured that on his own he could not make the difference that needed to be made, and so he either did not use the Epoch or did not use it for anything pertinent to the Chrono Trigger plotline, and instead entrusted it to those who would break the seal!

<cue Chrono Trigger theme>

Legend of the Past

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« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2005, 10:52:13 am »
Quote from: The game
  Forced to live here, I continued to
   conduct research on Lavos.
   But I am growing old.
 
   And it's impossible to keep sane in such
   trying times. So before I lose it
   completely, I shall safeguard my data,
   and my ultimate creation...

   How I long to return home...
   But I have grown frail...

 
   So you...YOU, who have opened the
   door!
   I leave things in your hands.

   Only by mastering time, itself, do you
   stand a chance against Lavos.

   The odds will be against you...
   But you are true heros.
   The world is in your hands.

   Open, now, the last door, and take
   what you find there.
   My last invention...
 
   My «Wings of Time» ...

Zaperking

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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2005, 12:36:56 pm »
So, That was Belthasar talking in his old body. Now he resides in the Nu, or atleast his conscience does. He should still have been able to do something.

Crono_Maniac

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« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2005, 07:05:40 pm »
Any of you like Star Wars?  Han Solo said:
Quote
If we don't calculate exactly we could fly right through star and cause a super-nova!


If a mere space-ship can fly through a star at hyperspeed, it makes sense to suppose a time machine could fly through Lavos' shell at warp speed!  Keep in mind that the Epoch broke.  Also, 0 AD is the founding of Guardia.  Therefore, it stand to reason that 1000 AD is about 1700 AD in real life, and 2300 AD is about 3000 AD.  I would say they'd have quite advanced metals and power sources.  Mainly things we couldn't comprehend.  Who's to say that an unfinished Epoch couldn't fly through time with NO living passengers.  He might not have finished the life-support systems.  

The only problem with the dreamstone theory is that it was previously stated that the Dreamstone would draw out the rider's hopes and dreams.  However, the Epoch did followed Crono & co. with no riders.  Also would that make the Epoch effectively evil while Dalton was riding it?  Who was riding the Epoch in the battle with Dalton anyway.  Therefore, it stands to reason that there was another powersource.