Author Topic: Revisiting Guile being Magus retcon with added info from CC remaster... SPOILERS  (Read 3666 times)

Sheiken

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So Guile being Magus has been an ongoing topic for a long time.  The brief rundown is that in the original game, Guile was supposed to represent Magil from Radical Dreamers (who was indeed Magus).  However due to the scope Chrono Cross was going for, the team had difficulty getting it to fit and made Guile as his own ambiguous character.  This however seemed to have possibly changed with the DS release of the Chrono Trigger and the Dream Devourer ending.  In this ending, Magus confronts the Dream Devourer (which is actually the Time Devourer we find in Cross in the beginning stages of its evolution), and Schala says to him that power alone cannot save her, and he would never save her as he is now.  Magus then decides that if all the power he was seeking was for nothing, he would wipe out his own identity in hopes that he would become someone who would tread a different path and potentially find a way to save her, should any part of his former self remain.

He wakes in the forest, confused and ignorant of his former self.  He says that he feels there is something he must do and something he must find, and will do whatever it takes to remember what it was.  The idea behind this, is that he becomes Guile in CC who is wondering the world searching for enigma.  If he is in your party when you approach the Frozen Flame, he even says something along the lines of, "Is this what I've been searching for? No!! I am no such thing... what good is it to have such dark power??"

Now we enter Chrono Cross Radical Dreamers Edition.  While there is nothing new within the game itself, there is an extra monologue unlocked in the post credits once you have completed BOTH CC and RD.  This is still open to interpretation, but it is most likely referring to Guile and expanding on the retcon that was started in the DS port of CT.  Here is my interpretation and why I believe this to be the case...

"The time was near - the final battle awaited.
There, alone in the shadows, the man lingered.
HIs partners, a young man and a young woman,
had already made their preparations, and were
waiting for him at the place they had agreed upon."


This seems like a reference to Opassa Beach at the end of CC.  This would be the meeting place for the final battle, and Serge/Kid would be the young man and woman.

"Their foe was a fearsome opponent indeed.
Would the three of them be able to defeat him?
There was only one way to find out.
All the better - what fun is a battle
whose outcome is all but certain."


The fearsome opponent would be the Time Devourer itself.  The only thing that might be argued against this is emphasis on the word "he" and "him", instead of using the word "it" since TD is an evolution of Lavos (which is an a sexual being).  However mislabeling such beings as "him" or "her" is a common thing for people to do, and not really enough to outright disprove anything.  One theory is that "him" might be referring to Lynx in RD, but there are other factors that more point toward Guile over Magil that we will get into, the above point being one as there was no meeting place for a final battle or preparing to be made in RD.

"The man reached a hand to his mask-
silver and unembellished,
save for a few subtle details."


The color of the mask goes against Guile and Magil as both wear gold masks, and is likely an oversight IMO.

"It had been many long years
since he last revealed his face.

Did he wear the mask to hide himself from others?
Or did he wear it to hide from himself?

Enough time had passed that
not even he was sure anymore."


This is a direct reference to both Magil and Guile.  Hiding from others would be Magil, who was very aware of his purpose and that (in RD) Kid is actually Schala.  Hiding from himself is more of a reference to Guile not wanting to remember who he was, and his memory wipe.  This can work both ways.

"But it didn't matter now.
The end was coming - an end to everything.
Soon, his long days of wandering would be over.
So too would the girl's ill-fated, fleeting existence."


Now while the above point works for both, this points more toward Guile.  The ill fated girl is most likely a reference to Schala's fleeting existence within the Time Devourer.  This would end in the form of her being liberated from the Chrono Cross.  His long days of wandering is again, a reference to Guile's character.  He was searching and wandering in search of something...did not know what, but he knew he needed to find something (as confirmed by the above quote when he approached the Frozen Flame).  There are several references to Guile being a wander in search of "enigma" as well.

"How many years had passed?
How many centuries?
How much love and prayer,
how much hatred and rancor,
how much despair and resignation,
had slowly and silently fallen over him,
piling up like snow?"


This is a reference to Magus in general.

"On that fated day, long, long ago...
everything that he was had vanished...
Faded away into nothingness...
without so much as a whimper...

There was nothing he could have done to stop it...

But one memory stayed with him,
even after everything else fell away.
One unforgettable image...

That kingdom of winds, forever lost..."


There was nothing he could have done to stop it, speaks to when he failed to save Schala from the Dream Devourer.  "everything he was" vanishing is likely a reference to when he wiped his memory.  The unforgettable image is Schala's smile and the reason he searches for "something".  The Kingdom of Winds is a reference to Zeal itself, which could also interpret that this entire part is referring to the fall of Zeal, but the rest does not add up as well to that as it does for Guile.  For example, Magus was not searching for Schala in the start of CT as he thought she was dead.  He also did not know he could willingly time travel at the time either.  This is why he was more fixated on revenge and summoning Lavos to kill it, rather than finding Schala.

"Those blessed days in a paradise above the clouds...

And that face... Her gentle, bitter-sweet smile...

Perhaps his time behind the mask
was coming to an end..."


Reference to his days with Schala and the end of his quest.

"His icy gaze seemed to thaw for a moment-
and then he sprang to action.

The moonlight flashed across the mask's surface.
His silvery hair flowed behind him,
reaching out like the tail of a coment.

"The time has come, o fated star-
the king has returned."

And with that... he vanished into the darkness."


The moonlight reference points that this was his thoughts from the night before (very early morning most likely) actually going to Opassa Beach off screen, and is further supported by the fact that above he speaks of preparation and going to the meeting place (opassa beach) suggesting he is not physically there yet.  Vanishing into darkness was a trademark of Magil, but given all the other evidence pointing to Guile instead, it could also just be a tribute to the character Guile was originally supposed to represent as well.  This could also be a reference to entering the Darkness Beyond Time as well.

"Though a life may end, a story lives on.
Not forever, perhaps, but...

What's eternity...

... compared to this moment in time?

fin."


A life ending could be Kid if he thinks she will merge with Schala, being her daughter clone and all.

...

So a few side notes to bring up...as we can see Guile would have his memories back in this scenario.  There is no outright confirmation that this happened, but it is strongly implied which is the only way to do it without messing with the original script of CC.  So when could this have happened?  A user by the name of Prince Janus came up with a good one that I subscribe to.  Basically when he approached the Frozen Flame, he has a revelation from its influence and regains his memories.  He keeps his thought to himself, as it serves no purpose to tell Serge and Kid what he came to realize.  Magus was pretty introverted to begin with, so it fits the character too.

So when you look at all this, there is a much stronger argument to say this is an expansion of the original CT retcon than a reference to Magil from RD.  Someone did bring up another possibility, that due to the silver mask we may be seeing yet another version of Magus in yet another timeline, but such a monologue serves no purpose unless they are teasing a new game, which I have my doubts about.  It is for this reason I believe it must either refer to Magil or Guile, and for the reasons above I feel Guile fits the bill.  However a hint at a new game is indeed totally possible, so I respect the opinion of anyone that feels that way.  Myself personally however, I feel like I will cross that bridge if/when that is announced and draw my conclusions based on the data and lore we already have.

Thoughts?

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=13731.msg234624#msg234624 for those that want to read the original un-noted version of the new content.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 01:32:30 pm by Sheiken »

Acacia Sgt

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The reference of a "time war" also seems to regard a battle with the Time Devourer, since at maturity it is said it would devour all of time.

Oh wow, I can't believe I didn't noticed that typo.

It's was, not war. "The time was near". Already fixed it.

Sheiken

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The reference of a "time war" also seems to regard a battle with the Time Devourer, since at maturity it is said it would devour all of time.

Oh wow, I can't believe I didn't noticed that typo.

It's was, not war. "The time was near". Already fixed it.

Ah gotcha, I will remove that part from the theory as well.  Thanks for correcting!

Beach Bum

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It’s intriguing, but not much more than that. Nothing was shown or heard, just some plains walls of text on a plain background. Reading it just makes me wish that much more that they could have found a way to include Magus in a more meaningful way in CC. I understand that the ability to bring any party member you want would make it difficult to tell his story, but then again isn’t it the same for Kid? You can pretty much ignore her and never recruit her, and she will still be present for some of the game’s major events. They could have done the same for Magus.


Then again, if Magus was in CC, everyone would pretty much just constantly have Kid and Magus in the party and ignore the 42 other characters. Except Glenn, maybe.

Sheiken

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It’s intriguing, but not much more than that. Nothing was shown or heard, just some plains walls of text on a plain background. Reading it just makes me wish that much more that they could have found a way to include Magus in a more meaningful way in CC. I understand that the ability to bring any party member you want would make it difficult to tell his story, but then again isn’t it the same for Kid? You can pretty much ignore her and never recruit her, and she will still be present for some of the game’s major events. They could have done the same for Magus.


Then again, if Magus was in CC, everyone would pretty much just constantly have Kid and Magus in the party and ignore the 42 other characters. Except Glenn, maybe.

Well of course picking a different path would affect this, this theory only affects the potential outcome of picking Guile and not ignoring Kid.  As for who the final party members are, we have to remember that lore and gameplay mechanics do not really apply to each other all of the time.  It is for this reason we are not invincible when we play a superman game for example.  And since having 3 specific party members is a gameplay mechanic and not really lore specific...you can see where I am going here.  In fact, there is already an example of this in Cross itself.  If you go to water dragon isle for the ice breath and do not bring Razzly with you, she will still be present in the concluding cutscene and talk with the angry fairies about Rosetta and how she chooses to stay with Serge.  Just because she was not in your active party of three does not mean she is not present, and the same could be said for Guile and Kid at Opassa Beach at the end of the game.

As for why they did it, fan service 100%.  It doesn't really change anything, except making the idea of Janus being present when Schala is saved a viable possibility, pending on the choices you make in the game.  And given that this is just a 20 dollar emulated port, I am suprised they even did this much TBH.  Though I too wish they did more, between the CT DS addition and this they at least made Guile being Magus plausible.  And for that I am happy.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 02:21:44 pm by Sheiken »

Beach Bum

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Actually, if you don't bring Razzly to Water Dragon Isle, she won't be present during any of the scenes and the fairies will just throw a hissy fit at Serge. There are other character interactions that are entirely optional and possible to miss. If you bring someone related to Dario to meet him in Home World, they'll each have a unique dialogue with him.

Kid is the only character in the game (and Harle I guess) that will be present for major events no matter what you do, even if you refuse her multiple offers to join the party. She'll be there in Viper Manor, and in Fort Dragonia, I'm pretty sure Serge still reminisces about her aboard the S.S. Invincible, and she'll be there in Chronopolis. Terra Tower I'm not sure, I think she's absent if you don't save her from her coma.


Sheiken

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Actually, if you don't bring Razzly to Water Dragon Isle, she won't be present during any of the scenes and the fairies will just throw a hissy fit at Serge. There are other character interactions that are entirely optional and possible to miss. If you bring someone related to Dario to meet him in Home World, they'll each have a unique dialogue with him.

Kid is the only character in the game (and Harle I guess) that will be present for major events no matter what you do, even if you refuse her multiple offers to join the party. She'll be there in Viper Manor, and in Fort Dragonia, I'm pretty sure Serge still reminisces about her aboard the S.S. Invincible, and she'll be there in Chronopolis. Terra Tower I'm not sure, I think she's absent if you don't save her from her coma.

Actually you are mistaken as I just did this last night.  Took the saving Kid path, recruited Razzly, and never used her once AT ALL.  At the end of Water Dragon Isle, she was still present for the fairies throwing a hissy fit at Serge regardless.

There are other instances as well, like if you do not bring Karsh to Isle of the Damned he will still be there.  Or when you talk to Dario and trigger his fight, Karsh and Radius are also present despite not being in the party.  I think you may want to revisit the game and see for yourself if you think Kid is the only character that can show up regardless of being in the party or not, because there are quite a few times it happens with other characters as well.  It is understandable that you may have not noticed though, Cross has a lot of little nuances that can be forgotten overtime.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 03:20:57 pm by Sheiken »

Beach Bum

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Are you really sure about that? I could've sworn that wasn't the case... But I know for a fact that if you don't bring Karsh to the Isle of the Damned, Solt and Peppor will just tell you to piss off and go get him. Nothing happens until you bring him yourself.

Sheiken

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Are you really sure about that? I could've sworn that wasn't the case... But I know for a fact that if you don't bring Karsh to the Isle of the Damned, Solt and Peppor will just tell you to piss off and go get him. Nothing happens until you bring him yourself.

I may be mistaken about Isle of the Damned, but I can 100% confirm the Dario scenario as well as Razzly.  I have tested both of these personally.  For Dario, Riddel must be in your party but Radius and Karsh are also present regardless of if you bring them.

As for Razzly, there seems to be a Mandela effect going on here because I triggered this last night trying to get the campfire scene while taking the "save kid path".  When I googled it, many made the same claim as you.  However regardless of the fact that I never used Razzly, she was still present for the scene with the surviving fairies and no campfire scene took place.  Upon further testing, the only way Razzly is not present is if you do not recruit her at all and instead go straight to the Hydra.  Then and only then will she not show up, and you get the campfire cutscene instead (aside from taking the NOT saving kid path, for obvious reasons).

What makes the Razzly one so relevant to this topic though, is that she HAD to have been brought there by Serge.  When you recruit her, she states that she is not strong enough to cross the sea on her own.  So what this tells us is that even if she is not part of your party of three, she is indeed still present.  And that is what is relevant to Guile and Kid potentially still being present for this monologue to take place regardless of your three person team, in a scenario where you recruit Guile and do not ignore Kid.  In this instance, the gameplay mechanic of a three person party does not apply to the actual lore or events happening on screen.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 04:08:14 pm by Sheiken »

Dialga_Palkia

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I've noticed that if you have Norris and Zoah on your team in Termina, Another World Norris will be surprised to noticed Zoah and himself in your team. ironically, i've been using serge,kid,and guile and Guile does make a statement to you in Termina happy to learn you're alive, abit in Lynx's body, but cannot join due to unforseen circumstances.  been taking screenshots and video captures for some hilarious moments.

speaking of which, defeating miguel last night made me dream of him for some reason. must have been art inspiration.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:02:23 pm by Dialga_Palkia »

Beach Bum

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Are you really sure about that? I could've sworn that wasn't the case... But I know for a fact that if you don't bring Karsh to the Isle of the Damned, Solt and Peppor will just tell you to piss off and go get him. Nothing happens until you bring him yourself.

I may be mistaken about Isle of the Damned, but I can 100% confirm the Dario scenario as well as Razzly.  I have tested both of these personally.  For Dario, Riddel must be in your party but Radius and Karsh are also present regardless of if you bring them.

As for Razzly, there seems to be a Mandela effect going on here because I triggered this last night trying to get the campfire scene while taking the "save kid path".  When I googled it, many made the same claim as you.  However regardless of the fact that I never used Razzly, she was still present for the scene with the surviving fairies and no campfire scene took place.  Upon further testing, the only way Razzly is not present is if you do not recruit her at all and instead go straight to the Hydra.  Then and only then will she not show up, and you get the campfire cutscene instead (aside from taking the NOT saving kid path, for obvious reasons).

What makes the Razzly one so relevant to this topic though, is that she HAD to have been brought there by Serge.  When you recruit her, she states that she is not strong enough to cross the sea on her own.  So what this tells us is that even if she is not part of your party of three, she is indeed still present.  And that is what is relevant to Guile and Kid potentially still being present for this monologue to take place regardless of your three person team, in a scenario where you recruit Guile and do not ignore Kid.  In this instance, the gameplay mechanic of a three person party does not apply to the actual lore or events happening on screen.

Water Dragon Isle is probably the single segment of the game with the most possible variations, and I wonder why they did that. Razzly can be there and Rosetta can die, Razzly can be there and Rosetta can live, Razzly can be absent and Rosetta can die, Razzly can be absent and Rosetta can live, or if you just never go there the fairies are eradicated entirely by monsters.

Anyway, the point was… they clearly can convey the story of party members even if you don’t bring them along, which is why I find it confusing they couldn’t convey Magus in CC… the large roster of characters shouldn’t matter, just have him show up whenever he’s relevant, regardless of whether he’s in the party or not. Maybe the real reason is they just ran out of developer time.

I've noticed that if you have Norris and Zoah on your team in Termina, Another World Norris will be surprised to noticed Zoah and himself in your team. ironically, i've been using serge,kid,and guile and Guile does make a statement to you in Termina happy to learn you're alive, abit in Lynx's body, but cannot join due to unforseen circumstances.  been taking screenshots and video captures for some hilarious moments.

speaking of which, defeating miguel last night made me dream of him for some reason. must have been art inspiration.

There’s many, many instances like that. If you refused Kid and got Leena, Kid will assume she’s your girlfriend. If you go to the inn first thing after entering Termina, she’ll add a comment about Serge being sleazy. If you chose not to save Kid and bring Glenn to Mt Pyre and Fort Dragonia, he’ll have interactions with the Dragoons and General Viper. If you take Radius and Zappa to the Dead Sea, they’ll have a horrified reaction upon seeing the other Dragoons frozen in time. If you bring Another World Karsh to Home World Zappa, they’ll have a slight heart to heart.

There’s too many to list them all, but usually if you bring a character to a scene they’re relevant to, there will be some funny or interesting special dialogue. It’s one of the things I love about CC.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:20:38 pm by Beach Bum »

Sheiken

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Are you really sure about that? I could've sworn that wasn't the case... But I know for a fact that if you don't bring Karsh to the Isle of the Damned, Solt and Peppor will just tell you to piss off and go get him. Nothing happens until you bring him yourself.

I may be mistaken about Isle of the Damned, but I can 100% confirm the Dario scenario as well as Razzly.  I have tested both of these personally.  For Dario, Riddel must be in your party but Radius and Karsh are also present regardless of if you bring them.

As for Razzly, there seems to be a Mandela effect going on here because I triggered this last night trying to get the campfire scene while taking the "save kid path".  When I googled it, many made the same claim as you.  However regardless of the fact that I never used Razzly, she was still present for the scene with the surviving fairies and no campfire scene took place.  Upon further testing, the only way Razzly is not present is if you do not recruit her at all and instead go straight to the Hydra.  Then and only then will she not show up, and you get the campfire cutscene instead (aside from taking the NOT saving kid path, for obvious reasons).

What makes the Razzly one so relevant to this topic though, is that she HAD to have been brought there by Serge.  When you recruit her, she states that she is not strong enough to cross the sea on her own.  So what this tells us is that even if she is not part of your party of three, she is indeed still present.  And that is what is relevant to Guile and Kid potentially still being present for this monologue to take place regardless of your three person team, in a scenario where you recruit Guile and do not ignore Kid.  In this instance, the gameplay mechanic of a three person party does not apply to the actual lore or events happening on screen.

Water Dragon Isle is probably the single segment of the game with the most possible variations, and I wonder why they did that. Razzly can be there and Rosetta can die, Razzly can be there and Rosetta can live, Razzly can be absent and Rosetta can die, Razzly can be absent and Rosetta can live, or if you just never go there the fairies are eradicated entirely by monsters.

Anyway, the point was… they clearly can convey the story of party members even if you don’t bring them along, which is why I find it confusing they couldn’t convey Magus in CC… the large roster of characters shouldn’t matter, just have him show up whenever he’s relevant, regardless of whether he’s in the party or not. Maybe the real reason is they just ran out of developer time.

I've noticed that if you have Norris and Zoah on your team in Termina, Another World Norris will be surprised to noticed Zoah and himself in your team. ironically, i've been using serge,kid,and guile and Guile does make a statement to you in Termina happy to learn you're alive, abit in Lynx's body, but cannot join due to unforseen circumstances.  been taking screenshots and video captures for some hilarious moments.

speaking of which, defeating miguel last night made me dream of him for some reason. must have been art inspiration.

There’s many, many instances like that. If you refused Kid and got Leena, Kid will assume she’s your girlfriend. If you go to the inn first thing after entering Termina, she’ll add a comment about Serge being sleazy. If you chose not to save Kid and bring Glenn to Mt Pyre and Fort Dragonia, he’ll have interactions with the Dragoons and General Viper. If you take Radius and Zappa to the Dead Sea, they’ll have a horrified reaction upon seeing the other Dragoons frozen in time. If you bring Another World Karsh to Home World Zappa, they’ll have a slight heart to heart.

There’s too many to list them all, but usually if you bring a character to a scene they’re relevant to, there will be some funny or interesting special dialogue. It’s one of the things I love about CC.

I think running out of time and limited resources is exactly why it got cut initially.  It is sad, but it was a very common thing to happen back in the PS1 era of JRPGs, which led to a lot of info dumps at the end of several games (CC included).  At the end of the day however giving us that extra bit in the Dream Devourer segment of CT DS and now this bit to further expand that it is plausible that Guile is indeed Magus is the best they can do at this point, at least without a full blown remake (which I am pretty sure isn't happening).  As much of a fan service move as it is, at least they gave us anything at all to touch up on such a heavily debated subject.  Maybe they had plans for Magus in Chrono Break, but once the game got dropped by SE this was all they could do without a proper budget.  There is no way to know for sure.

Dialga_Palkia

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guess i should have brought Zappa instead of Irenes :picardno I had Radius on my team.

Beach Bum

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Guess that’s what New Game+ is for. You can’t see every unique dialogue in one playthrough anyway. And Irenes is a cool character, glad I’m not the only one who likes her.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 05:59:24 pm by Beach Bum »

Sheiken

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Are you really sure about that? I could've sworn that wasn't the case... But I know for a fact that if you don't bring Karsh to the Isle of the Damned, Solt and Peppor will just tell you to piss off and go get him. Nothing happens until you bring him yourself.

Ah I found out where I got the Isle of the Damned memory from, I got the worlds mixed up.  Solt and Peppor tell you to piss off without Karsh in Another World, but in Home World Radius shows up for the Garai fight even if you do not having him in the party.  He does this for entering the Dead Sea as well, when the Masamune is blocking your way.

Just thought I would throw that out there since we were talking about it, and shows that SE was more than willing to have characters show up for key moments if they are not in your active party aside of just Kid.  With that in mind, I agree with you that they definitely could have given Guile/Magus a more meaningful and active role in the main plot regardless of the path you took.  If you did not pick him in Viper Manor, he could have done like Glenn and claim to follow his own path to get to each destination he would be needed for.

There have been several talks of running out of time and funding, so that probably had more to due with the change more than anything else.  It is a shame, but at least we have something now.  I came to terms with the whole cut content part a long time ago, so as much of a fan service move as this is I am happy we got it.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 04:48:28 pm by Sheiken »