Author Topic: Did the Dragonians have their memories erased?  (Read 197 times)

NimmerStill

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Did the Dragonians have their memories erased?
« on: September 02, 2020, 04:34:41 pm »
I'm wondering if anyone has any theories one way or the other on whether, when FATE erased the memories of the Chronopolis workers to populate El Nido, it also did the same with the surviving Reptites emerging from Dinopolis before populating El Nido with them, now known as Dragonians.

Since the text of the game does not even directly support the identity of the Dragonians with Reptites, it's unlikely that there will be direct textual evidence for the memory wipe question either. But we can make guesses based on the available evidence and theories.

One reason to assume that FATE *would* have wiped their memories is that if FATE is going to do so with the humans, from FATE's own dimension, one would assume that FATE would certainly do the same to its former enemies, the Reptites.

Support for the idea that FATE *didn't* wipe their memories might be the Dragonians' extensive knowledge of elements, and their eagerness to start the cult of the Dragon God(s).

But perhaps those things were rediscovered by the originally memory-wiped Dragonians. And after all, it seems that at first, relations between humans and Dragonians were quite friendly, which you might not expect if one side remembered the Polis War.

So on balance, perhaps we should say yes on the memory wipe. But does anyone else have any thoughts?

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Did the Dragonians have their memories erased?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2020, 05:36:23 pm »
I would think they were.

Remember, one of the reasons FATE wiped the memories of the future inhabitants of El Nido, and continues to control them through the Records of Fate, is that it's following the directive of avoid altering the time line more than it needs to.

The sudden influx of Reptites/Dragonians would be such a timeline contamination, and it would be easier to just brainwash them than to keep them restrained or imprisoned.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Did the Dragonians have their memories erased?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2020, 07:17:53 pm »
Oh dang, this is a really interesting thought. I had never even considered this before.

Surely the dragonians wouldn't have willingly had their memory wiped; perhaps this was part of the Polis War? In fact, do we really have much justification for the Polis War? Was it just because the Dragonians and the Terra Tower were pulled from their dimension?

In the end, I definitely think that the dragonians were forced into it by Fate, though (in order to maintain the integrity of the timeline). We know that FATE destroyed the Dragon God (FATEs dragonian universe counterpart) by ripping into 7 elemental dragons.

To further this, I highly doubt the dragonians would actually care whether or not their presence mucks up the human timeline, seeing that they were brought here against their will. Ultimately, it only makes sense that they were forced into having their memories erased by FATE and "passified".
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 07:23:38 pm by Boo the Gentleman Caller »

NimmerStill

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Re: Did the Dragonians have their memories erased?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2020, 08:17:11 pm »
The support for what we call the Polis War is this:

Quote
Belthasar:
   Dinopolis was drawn into
   this dimension's past about
   ten thousand years ago...

Belthasar:
   This was done so that it
   would serve as a counter-
   balance against Chronopolis,
   which Lavos pulled here.

   Needless to say,
   a fierce battle ensued...

Belthasar:
   In the end, Chronopolis emerged
   as the victor, and the Reptite's
   fortress was sealed away by FATE...

As for whether it was voluntary, I got the impression that it wasn't voluntary on the part of the humans *or* the Dragonians. FATE was just that powerful; by then it had apparently overpowered its own Chronopolis citizens, perhaps as part of Belthasar's plan or perhaps because the Chronopolis workers had entrusted too much of the operations of the city to FATE during the war.

Either that or perhaps, in contrast to the Dragonians, the Chronopolitans, being time specialists, *did* care about not mucking with the timeline, and voluntarily submitted to be memory-wiped.

I'm skeptical of that; I can't imagine every single worker there volunteering; some would have to be forced, either by FATE or by their fellow workers. But either way I agree that the Dragonians wouldn't have. But FATE had the upper hand on them, Chronopolis having been victorious and all.

Razig

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Re: Did the Dragonians have their memories erased?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2020, 11:02:58 pm »
Since the text of the game does not even directly support the identity of the Dragonians with Reptites, it's unlikely that there will be direct textual evidence for the memory wipe question either. But we can make guesses based on the available evidence and theories.

I had never even questioned the "fact" that Dragonians = Reptites. It's just one of those things that everyone "knows." But looking at the script, I can see that you are correct; the game does not explain the origins of the Dragonians.

However, I think it's a reasonable assumption to make, considering there's really no other viable origin for them. A highly advanced race of (presumably) reptilians, native to an area that didn't exist before the Time Crash? It can't be a coincidence. Although if they had their memories erased, how did they retain the knowledge of Lavos that they recorded in Fort Dragonia?

Kodokami

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Re: Did the Dragonians have their memories erased?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2020, 12:05:39 am »
Huh. Yeah, that really is interesting that the origins of Dragonians isn't definitive. But I think you're also right, Razig, that Dragonians = Reptites is an easy assumption to make. Dinopolis is stated at least twice to be of Reptite origin (or at least of Azala's descendants), yet despite being extremely important to their culture, not a single Reptite was transported along with it. However, we do suddenly have Dragonians show up in El Nido who, based on all lore, fit the bill perfectly for being "descendants".

Although if they had their memories erased, how did they retain the knowledge of Lavos that they recorded in Fort Dragonia?

I'm guessing it had something to do with the Dragon Tear. It was extremely important to them, used for various "mystic rituals"; the fact that it can physically change people suggests to me that restoring the mind would also be within its realm of power.

NimmerStill

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Re: Did the Dragonians have their memories erased?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2020, 01:14:22 pm »
Although if they had their memories erased, how did they retain the knowledge of Lavos that they recorded in Fort Dragonia?

A few wild guesses.

Knowledge of Lavos was available from the mainland starting at least in 1000, when Crono and crew were wandering around having come back from the future. But the Dragonians must have gone extinct long before 1000.

The knowledge was also available in 600, even without Crono and crew, since Magus knew roughly what it was, and could have spread that knowledge to his Mystics, who then might have talked to the Dragonians. But it doesn't seem likely that Magus would know the details of Lavos descending in primitive times, and its effect on evolution.

So this is a puzzle. I'm not sure I see how even retaining their memories from Dinopolis and the Reptite future should have afforded the Dragonians this detailed knowledge about Lavos, since Lavos didn't exist in that Reptite timeline.

Alternatively, is it possible that the message that Serge receives in Fort Dragonia Home doesn't come from the Dragonians at all, but is instead a psychological experience Serge goes through as part of his transformation, given the knowledge *he* gained about Lavos in the Dead Sea, and just catalyzed by the Dragon Tear?