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Chrono Trigger Remake Concept
Mjolnir Mark IV Cyborg:
--- Quote from: Boo the Gentleman Caller on August 19, 2020, 05:41:34 pm ---Would combat be changed at all or are you envisioning what would be, for the most part, a 1:1 remake (a la the recent Secret of Mana / Trials of Mana, but obviously with more advanced graphics).
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It's interesting you mention this. With games in general, I'm actually much more in favor of action-based combat (in fact, Chrono Trigger was the first turn-based game I ever dove into). However, because Chrono Trigger isn't an action game, and because I'm not envisioning a reboot/re-imagining, I think the best approach would be to retain the original combat system. Chrono Trigger was far ahead of its time and had the richest turn-based combat system for a surprising number of years well after its release, at least as far as what I experienced in the genre (why more developers of games with turn-based combat systems weren't influenced by it and instead chose to stick to more simplistic systems has always bewildered me).
However, I think adding extra options would be an excellent idea, such as ramping up the combat speed even higher so that the Battle Gauge fills instantly. And how do you all feel about this, because this is one thing I've always wanted: the ability to move your characters around during combat. After all, enemies can do it, so why shouldn't we be able to? Especially with all the spatially designed Techs, the game just seems like it was meant for such a feature. If these features can be worked in as options, similar to Action vs. Wait and other various customization options available in the original, I think that would be best.
The other reason I think it's interesting you mention the combat system is because I have a very specific idea regarding this that is best suited for a separate topic. More on that later...
--- Quote from: CptOvaltine on August 24, 2020, 02:33:00 pm ---Weighing in on the music portion (I have a little experience in this area)...you wouldn't like the result of a 1:1 musical remake simply swapping everything out instrument for instrument.
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Your musical expertise is much appreciated, as I'm much more of a visual artist than I am a musician. Just one technicality though (let me know if this changes your answer): I don't mean that the exact same number of instruments should be used. What I meant was, for example, is that if it's strings in the chiptune music, it should be strings in the orchestra—not the same number of apparent violinists, cellists, etc. (I'm not sure how one would determine the number of simulated musicians in a set of chiptune instruments anyway). But it should be the same type of instrument(s) playing the same melody.
I've heard a lot of orchestrated renditions of video game music with varying degrees of faithfulness to the original pieces. Sometimes it's pretty clear a conscious decision was made to take a slightly different creative direction than the original music—for example, changing a few of the notes in the melody, or swapping out wind instruments for strings. The problem here is that whether or not the change is for the best is very subjective. Since I'm proposing a remake that tries to keep the original creative vision intact, changing the melody or instrument type are changes this remake should do without.
--- Quote from: CptOvaltine on August 24, 2020, 02:33:00 pm ---The SNES was only able to play 8 concurrent musical instruments (audio channels) at one time. Orchestra sizes vary greatly, but a fairly typical symphonic orchestra will have 35+ different parts and around 60 to 90 players.
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But how many sets of instruments in an orchestra are typically used simultaneously? Wouldn't that be what's relevant to the number of audio channels available to the SNES? Strings would be just one set of instruments, for example, that would correspond to one audio channel of simulated strings on SNES.
--- Quote from: CptOvaltine on August 24, 2020, 02:33:00 pm ---With the limitations of the SNES there were very conscious decisions made on what textures to include or to not include in the game that, while sounding good with the SNES, will not translate well to a live ensemble. The actual result will sound very bare, empty, and underwhelming.
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With all due respect, I'm not convinced this is true. I feel like I've heard too many successful faithful orchestrations of chiptune music, or faithfully recreated segments at least, for this to be true.
A good and relevant example is the End of Time track from the Chrono Trigger Orchestral Arrangement released just last year. The melodies and instruments in the orchestral arrangement are the same as the original, as near as I can tell—and the track doesn't sound bare, empty, or underwhelming. To me it sounds like the chiptune music come to life using real instruments, which is exactly what I want.
Now I realize this orchestral arrangement begins to diverge to some degree, at the point when it would normally loop in the original chiptune music, so I'm using the part before that change as my example. I don't think any type of variation in place of a loop is necessary for the remake I'm proposing. It's nice to have that kind of variation in an arrangement on an album, but for a remake trying to adhere to the original creative vision, I think the first part of the track before it changes in the arranged version would sound just great looped over and over again.
I think it's the texture of the real instruments that makes the real difference—both in my example and with what I'm proposing.
While what I'm proposing is that the instruments and melodies and tempo be kept the same, I'm all for having the option of being able to replace the music with the user's custom tracks. That way, one could replace any track with any of the various existing orchestrations.
--- Quote from: CptOvaltine on August 24, 2020, 02:33:00 pm ---All of this is to say that you couldn't have someone orchestrate the original in a way that it would retain the original melody without changing anything fundamental to the song (which I suspect is your actual idea), but ultimately there will be A LOT of new material added to the music to both flesh it out for live musicians and to extend short loops to better fit the modern era.
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I think what you're describing here is more of a re-imagining, rather than the type of remake I'm envisioning. For one, I definitely don't think the short loops are an issue. I think given the tone of the game and anime style, the shorter loops won't feel out of place like they would in a realistic remake, or if it were a feature length film I were proposing. And I definitely don't think "a lot" of material needs to be added to the music. At most, "some" tracks might benefit from "some" material added in, but even then, that's subjective.
I'm not saying you can't change my mind, I'm just saying I'm not convinced as of right now. If you can find some type of argument against my End of Time example, or if you can point to an example of faithfully recreated chiptune music with real instruments that falls flat, I might be convinced.
Is it now more clear what I want and do you think it's feasible to accomplish without the music sounding like it's lacking?
CptOvaltine:
--- Quote ---I don't mean that the exact same number of instruments should be used. What I meant was, for example, is that if it's strings in the chiptune music, it should be strings in the orchestra—not the same number of apparent violinists, cellists, etc. (I'm not sure how one would determine the number of simulated musicians in a set of chiptune instruments anyway). But it should be the same type of instrument(s) playing the same melody.
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I'm not really talking about number of players here, that's subjective and within the recording world there is A LOT of flexibility on numbers when trying to achieve a certain sound vs doing a live concert.
--- Quote ---I've heard a lot of orchestrated renditions of video game music with varying degrees of faithfulness to the original pieces. Sometimes it's pretty clear a conscious decision was made to take a slightly different creative direction than the original music—for example, changing a few of the notes in the melody, or swapping out wind instruments for strings. The problem here is that whether or not the change is for the best is very subjective. Since I'm proposing a remake that tries to keep the original creative vision intact, changing the melody or instrument type are changes this remake should do without.
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I suppose "faithfulness" is subjective to what you define as being faithful or not. If your biggest concern is melody and overall harmonic structure, then yes, I agree with you. It's totally possible to recreate the original melody and structure with a live orchestra while capturing the magic of the original. That being said, the orchestration will be wildly different then the game because, again, you now have essentially 32+ parts to write vs 8 on the SNES. Granted there is some wiggle room here when you take into account section patches and doubling, but orchestration for a live group will still fall well outside of the realm of what was possible with the SNES.
--- Quote ---But how many sets of instruments in an orchestra are typically used simultaneously? Wouldn't that be what's relevant to the number of audio channels available to the SNES? Strings would be just one set of instruments, for example, that would correspond to one audio channel of simulated strings on SNES.
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The short answer is yes, you would utilize the full orchestra quite often. The long answer is it would depend on a lot of different factors like interpretation, orchestration (is the song only strings, or a full orchestra battle track?), desired colors, atmosphere, effects, etc...but that starts to take us down a different discussion path. haha
--- Quote ---With all due respect, I'm not convinced this is true. I feel like I've heard too many successful faithful orchestrations of chiptune music, or faithfully recreated segments at least, for this to be true.
A good and relevant example is the End of Time track from the Chrono Trigger Orchestral Arrangement released just last year. The melodies and instruments in the orchestral arrangement are the same as the original, as near as I can tell—and the track doesn't sound bare, empty, or underwhelming. To me it sounds like the chiptune music come to life using real instruments, which is exactly what I want.
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This throws back to my earlier statement, if remaining faithful is just a question of melody, tempo and harmonic progression, then yes! It's totally possible! However, even with the End of Time example track you use there id new material - new string padding with additional 7th chords in the first chorus - the addition of woodwind trills and accompaniment on the first loop. Winds taking the melody in the second chorus along with a new cello countermelody. The new ending that breaks the loop and adds resolution, etc. These are all different orchestration choices and additions made to the original to help fill out what would be a bare 1:1 translation of the chiptune melody.
All of that said, the basic idea is still there. The melody remains largely unchanged, as does the harmonic progression. It's also fair to say that smaller ensemble tracks like this will translate easier as the instrument and part count is much lower then what you would use on the boss track, or Frog's Theme. The smaller the ensemble, the less restrictive the 8 channels will become to the writing.
--- Quote ---I think what you're describing here is more of a re-imagining, rather than the type of remake I'm envisioning. For one, I definitely don't think the short loops are an issue. I think given the tone of the game and anime style, the shorter loops won't feel out of place like they would in a realistic remake, or if it were a feature length film I were proposing. And I definitely don't think "a lot" of material needs to be added to the music. At most, "some" tracks might benefit from "some" material added in, but even then, that's subjective.
I'm not saying you can't change my mind, I'm just saying I'm not convinced as of right now. If you can find some type of argument against my End of Time example, or if you can point to an example of faithfully recreated chiptune music with real instruments that falls flat, I might be convinced.
Is it now more clear what I want and do you think it's feasible to accomplish without the music sounding like it's lacking?
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Well you're right about that, a lot of this is subjective to taste. I think there's a bit of confusion when we talk about new material though. I'm not saying you would have to add new melody fragments, sections of music, or "re-write" the music etc. I'm speaking from purely an orchestration point of view. Translating 8 channels to 32+ parts will require a lot of new orchestration. That doesn't mean the overall idea will change, simply that things will become richer and more fleshed out if done in a way that preserves the original melody and harmonic progression.
But as you said, this is all subjective. haha I will fully admit that I'm a bit of an orchestra snob, and whenever live orchestras are involved I will always advocate for strong sophisticated writing to utilize the group to it's full potential. I'm not trying to convince you one way or another, just trying to point out that I don't think a 1:1 interpretation will translate the way you think it will when it comes to orchestral music.
Boo the Gentleman Caller:
--- Quote ---haha I will fully admit that I'm a bit of an orchestra snob, and whenever live orchestras are involved I will always advocate for strong sophisticated writing to utilize the group to it's full potential.
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I don't think it's that you're a orchestra snob... it's that you are, professionally, a composer and live orchestras is both your skill and career! Bahaha!
Little does Mjolnir recognize that he is talking to one of the best video game orchestration gurus out there, and turning Chrono Trigger and other SNES/PSX era hits into orchestrations is literally your forte. Bahaha!
CptOvaltine:
--- Quote ---I don't think it's that you're a orchestra snob... it's that you are, professionally, a composer and live orchestras is both your skill and career! Bahaha!
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That might be true as well, but I'm definitely an orchestra snob, too...my dad always tells me I'm too much of a purist. haha :lol:
--- Quote ---Little does Mjolnir recognize that he is talking to one of the best video game orchestration gurus out there, and turning Chrono Trigger and other SNES/PSX era hits into orchestrations is literally your forte. Bahaha!
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Well thanks, Boo! I don't know that I'm one of the best, but I'm really glad you like my work. You've been a solid friend and supporter since we met a few years ago. :)
Lavos, a one-eyed tick:
I'm very opposed to a Chrono Trigger remake, as I'd prefer something new to be done with the IP rather than yet another "enhanced" version of Chrono Trigger that they repeatedly screw up time and time again. But your idea sounds pretty much flawless.
I think my one thing with orchestra music though, is as cool as it'd be... Chrono Trigger's music was never intended to be orchestral, but rather a mix of genres. For example, the main theme may sound orchestral, but has a saxophone lead. Wings of Time, Secret of the Forest, The End of Time, and many other tracks were also intended to be rather jazzy. Corridors of Time also will need that same arabian ambiance as the original piece. Undersea Palace, Last Battle, and Zeal Palace all prominently feature synths. I think the Malcolm Robinson remix albums are great examples of how I'd imagine a Chrono Trigger remake to sound - also some works from Time Rock Orchestra such as "Memories of Green", "Last Battle" and "Ruined World" help capture the spirit of the original well. Orchestra definitely would sound impressive, and there definitely would be some orchestral tracks. Magus' Theme would be incredible with orchestra, and plus the wind and laughing sound effects would be incredible. Peaceful Days would be a soaring symphony of peace, and To Far Away Times... Oh man, To Far Away Times would be out of this world. But even still, I feel if you want to truly recapture the original's music perfectly, you have to include that mix of genres that the original game had. I mean, just imagine hearing Secret of the Forest's juicy bass with real instrumentation! And if some little things get changed along the way, such as Secret of the Forest becoming a little more orchestral in style (As that's how I've always personally imagined it) I would still be down for it.
Again, check out Malcolm Robinson's Chrono Trigger: Orchestral Selections albums, most of his tracks absolutely nail how a Chrono Trigger remake should sound. Though of course, the remake would use live instruments rather than computer-based samples I'd imagine.
Also I'd want to make sure all the characters and stuff are based on the og art and sprites, NOT the PSX cutscenes (Since as you may notice with characters such as Azala and Lavos have a lot of changes when you compare Toriyama's original art to the PSX scenes), to get the perfect recreation of the original. And I definitely like the idea of switching between the original's graphics, music, and whatnot with the remake, also being able to turn off/on voice acting.
I think it'd also be cool if you could swap between the original SNES and the remastered DS versions of the script. Just so you can experience both translations. And of course, keeping the combat and top-down perspective would be essential.
So overall, sounds really good! Just wanted to suggest some little things that I think are important.
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