Author Topic: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?  (Read 3013 times)

Sheiken

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Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« on: August 06, 2020, 04:14:16 am »
Here we go again bouncing around new theories involving the trio from 1000 AD.  But with this one, I decided to think outside the box.  I was surprised at how likely this turned out to be, and the amount of evidence that supports it as a very valid possibility.

So as we know, Dalton lead a Porre uprising to destroy Guardia as an act of revenge against our heros.  What we don't know is the exact fate of the cast in Another World after the fall.  I still stand by them being dead in Home world due to the ghosts only appearing in Home World/Belthesar's illusion, the destroyed future shown in the Dead Sea, and Kid's absence.  Basically the final battle take place in 1999 AD against Lavos, long after the split takes place.  In home world our heros fail and meet their end, which would explain why Kid is missing from Home World as Lavos would have never died and Schala would likely not have cloned herself as a result (and even of she did, Lucca would have never found her).  This also explains why the ghosts blame Serge for the future coming back, as his survival created the reality they failed in.

But Another World is still a mystery.  Lucca's letter implies that Crono and Marle survived the Fall of Guardia, but anything beyond that is speculation.  Well I have a new theory that suggests that they may be working with Porre at this point, to an extent.  Lets look at the evidence...

First we have to look at a pretty small, but very important fact.  Lucca has ties to the Porre Navy at the time of Lynx coming for her.  This is supported by her friendship with Luccia and the receipt for received goods from the Navy found in her home.  To me, this suggests that Dalton has already been taken out.  For one, Lucca would never help Dalton.  One might argue that it was so that he would spare the orphanage after the Fall, but Lucca cooperating with him is just unlikely on so many levels.  Dalton's actions were an act of revenge, it was personal.  If it were up to him, he would kill her.  At best he would keep her prisoner and force her to cooperate or die.  Furthermore I find it likely that her being a prisoner of War would have been reflected in the letter, but it seemed she was worried for what might come for her and her friends rather than a threat that is already present.  From what I can tell there was no sign of her ever being forced either, and seemed to be working on her own.

Another thing to take note of is that I believe that Dalton would have gone to El Nido with the Navy in search of the Frozen Flame after Lynx went rouge.  This was a very powerful artifact that would make the desires of anyone who touched it a reality.  As seen in Chrono Trigger, he wanted world domination.  The Frozen Flame could have given him that, so do you really think he would have entrusted someone else to bring it to him?  Nah, I think he would have been there in person.  Especially with Lynx going rouge, as his sudden silence would surely be a red flag and have been more than enough reason for Dalton to show up and investigate.  Norris in Another World returned to Porre with this knowledge as well, and his duty was to his country.  He would have no reason to hide Lynx's betrayal and the body swap from Dalton if he was still in charge.  Though it could be argued the news could not be delivered in time for him to act, I still can't see him just sitting in Porre during Lynx's initial silence prior to Serge returning in Lynx's body in the first place.  As I said, he would want to be near so that he himself would be the one to take hold of the Flame.

So what I believe may have happened in this theory is that Crono, Marle, and Lucca manage to retaliate against Dalton, perhaps with a resistance force, and take him out.  Dalton clearly was not around in Cross with Lucca working with Porre and his absence in the search for an artifact that his character would insist on being present for.  Crono taking him out makes the most sense, as they already managed to fell his forces once in the ocean palace to reach the Queen and Lavos.  Then again on the Blackbird, albeit with Crono's absence at the time (escaping as prisoners I might add).  The group clearly had the most experience in dealing with the guy and his antics, more so than anyone else in that period of time.

Fast forward to 1999 AD on the Day of Lavos, and Truce is confirmed to still be around.  Even if the kingdom was gone, the town that was burned to the ground was rebuilt.  It is possible that Guardia was in the process of rebuilding during Cross, but it is more likely that Porre remained the current superpower.  With Dalton gone, Crono and Marle would have no reason to go against Porre and likely came to an agreement to rebuild Truce as a vassel state with whoever took his place (since Porre was still nigh untouchable in Cross).  Marle was not exactly queen material, but she did care for her people.  With their true enemy defeated, I could see her working with Porre for the greater good in exchange for Truce being restored for the people of Guardia that survived the attack.  This would make Lucca's ties with Porre make more sense.  Marle would likely govern Truce under Porre's rule and Crono, being the capable warrior he was, may very well have joined their army.  If this were the case, this could explain why Crono and Marle never came to Lucca's aid when Lynx took her.  Lynx had infiltrated Porre and aquired a vast amount of influence leading up to Cross.  Crono surely wanted to find her, but the very man who took her was in a position to misguide him through manipulation of information.  Not that Lynx was afraid of Crono, but had he been figured out his cover would have been blown.

Porre itself was not a bad nation afterall, Dalton was just an evil guy.  With evidence supporting him being out of the picture and no real evidence supporting that Porre was evil as a nation, this seems like a very possible scenario.  Dalton could have even faced mutiny by soldiers like Norris, who prove that not all of them were bad.  TBH the only thing that makes Porre look evil without Dalton is Lynx (who was a double agent of FATE) and a few asshat soldiers that exist in any army.  The rest were just following orders from someone who had no idea what was really going on once Lynx left.  And yes I know that Porre was in search of the Flame for power, but this was set in motion by Lynx.  He used Porre just as much as the Dragoons, who arguably wanted it for the same thing.  I don't see the clashing nations as Porre being evil so much as a conflict of ideals, and Porre just happens to be the current superpower.

So lets take a quick recap.  The hard evidence that supports this is Lucca's letter, Crono and Marle's likely survival (also supported by how Doan was brought to 1000 AD at the end of Trigger which suggest Crono and Marle made a child at some point), Dalton's appearent absence, Truce existing in 1999 AD, and Lucca's apparently peaceful ties to the Porre Navy.  The other stuff is mainly speculation based on the ambiguous nature of how the original crew was handled, as well as Dalton himself.

The evidence that goes against it...is nothing really.  One could argue that the evidence outside of Lucca having connections to Porre and her letter suggesting Crono and Marle survived is open to interpretation as well.  But IMO all of it put together with those pieces of evidence make it a very likely (while not definite) scenario.

So how about it, what do you think of this theory?  Are there any problems?  How likely do you find it?

One of the good things about the ambiguous nature of Cross is the possibilities it offers, and I look forward to hearing feedback based on this.  And a shoutout to Acacia Sgt, who in another thread cleared a few things up for me that made me think a bit more out of the box.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 12:14:32 pm by Sheiken »

Razig

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2020, 10:12:32 pm »
Basically the final battle take place in 1999 AD against Lavos, long after the split takes place.  In home world our heros fail and meet their end, which would explain why Kid is missing from Home World as Lavos would have never died and Schala would likely not have cloned herself as a result (and even of she did, Lucca would have never found her).  This also explains why the ghosts blame Serge for the future coming back, as his survival created the reality they failed in.

Serge's survival created the new reality, but how is he to blame for the failure of Crono's group to defeat Lavos?

Sheiken

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2020, 12:10:24 am »
Basically the final battle take place in 1999 AD against Lavos, long after the split takes place.  In home world our heros fail and meet their end, which would explain why Kid is missing from Home World as Lavos would have never died and Schala would likely not have cloned herself as a result (and even of she did, Lucca would have never found her).  This also explains why the ghosts blame Serge for the future coming back, as his survival created the reality they failed in.

Serge's survival created the new reality, but how is he to blame for the failure of Crono's group to defeat Lavos?

I am going into the full explaination to elaborate, so I apologise for anything I repeat in the process.

Under the assumption that Crono and gang complete the final battle via the bucket at the End of Time or the Epoch, they fight Lavos in 1999 AD.  The dimensional split happens in 1010 AD, long before the final battle would take place.  As seen within Cross, events that happen after the split tend to change based on what could have happened instead.  When Serge survived and caused the creation of a new realty, the events that took place in 1999 AD were subject to alteration as they had not happened yet.

In Home World, Crono and gang fight Lavos and LOSE in 1999 AD, effectively allowing the erased future to take place as that would be the alternative possibility to what originally happened.  This is why Serge was blamed, why Kid is absent (Schala would have never created a clone and if she did, Lucca would already be dead), and why the Ghosts are ONLY seen in Home World or an illusionary pocket dimension created by Belthesar...but NEVER in Another World itself (which is where Lucca's letter suggests Crono and Marle are alive).

Basically the reason Crono fails in an alternate reality is because Serge created that alternate reality.  This is why, in essence, Serge is to blame despite having no say in the matter as far as the Ghost Children are concerned.  It is not about whether or not Serge creating a new timeline was objectively his fault, but more the perspective of those affected by that split.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 01:13:22 am by Sheiken »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2020, 11:06:18 am »
I'm gonna point out that Kid exists in Home World. A few NPC's talk about her thief gang operating on Zenan. That's why her Home World counterpart doesn't show up, because she's still on the mainland.

Makes sense when you consider Kid was placed into the time line in 1004AD, before the split. So no reason she wouldn't exist in both worlds.

Sheiken

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2020, 01:11:47 pm »
I'm gonna point out that Kid exists in Home World. A few NPC's talk about her thief gang operating on Zenan. That's why her Home World counterpart doesn't show up, because she's still on the mainland.

Makes sense when you consider Kid was placed into the time line in 1004 AD, before the split. So no reason she wouldn't exist in both worlds.

Ah yes, good point.  In that case, it would explain why she apparently was not pursuing Lynx.  Since Lucca would have died fighting Lavos in 1999 AD, Kid was probably raised by someone else in that case.

But I am still not convinced Kid MUST be in Home World.  It is possible that Lucca dying in 1999 AD would in turn cause changes prior to 1010 AD that were dependent on Lavos being defeated.  A change in the future that affected the past, prior to the split.  Otherwise there would be a paradox that could not be explained.  If Lucca finds Kid in 1004 AD because it was before 1010 AD, but died against Lavos in 1999 AD before said event takes place...well you see the problem.  So the only answer is a butterfly effect where some events prior to the split change due to alternate outcomes that took place in the future, after the split.  The way I see it, this eliminates Lucca from 1004 AD because she never visits that time before defeating Lavos.  So if this would work for her, there is no reason Kid would be any different.

Lavos does not die in Home World, so there is no fusion with Schala to create the Time Devourer in this timeline.  This was the event that prompted her to make a daughter clone to begin with, so there is no reason to expect she did.  It makes the most sense that due to an alternate outcome from the future, Lucca and Kid are eliminated from the present (in their own way).  Furthermore I do not see TTI playing a role because this is not just a change in history, but an entirely new timeline.  Logic dictates that in this case, this would just be another alteration based on possible outcomes that was caused by a butterfly effect due to a crucial change actually taking place in the future, but had direct influence on another event that would have taken place in the past.

To clarify with an example of the inverse, Dalton would still raise the Porre military to attack Guardia in Home World.  The event that caused him to do so took place before Crono and gang had their final battle with Lavos.  He would have had no way of knowing they were dead, so he would have acted out the same way he did before the split.  The reason Kid and Lucca are affected is because the event that prompts Kid being born in 1004 AD and Lucca finding her takes place in the distant future, long after the split.

As for references to Radical Dreamers, they could have carried on without her.  No where did it clarify that Kid was the leader of said gang, nor that she founded it.  So the gang of theives being active on the mainland has no influence over Kid's existence in Home World.  But even if for some reason she was born, she would have had to have been raised by someone other than Lucca.  I suppose there is that quote from Kato that suggests she might be on the mainland, so it is possible.  However that could just be him being ambiguous, which he did A LOT with Chrono Cross.  I just do not see any in world evidence to back it up and considering how Cross ended, there would never be a need to go back and clarify such a comment in a potential sequel.  He could have said pretty much anything and it would have had no impact on future plans he may have had at the time, nor the overall plot in Cross.

Either way fits into the theory nicely, but I strongly lean toward her not being present at all in Home World.  There is no solid evidence that she is present, and the events that cause her to be born are a clear alteration to the timeline as far as I can tell.  This is all of course, under the assumption that Crono, Marle, and Lucca all die fighting Lavos in 1999 AD in Home World, which is implied to be the case.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 01:57:22 pm by Sheiken »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 04:07:28 am »
Ah yes, good point.  In that case, it would explain why she apparently was not pursuing Lynx.  Since Lucca would have died fighting Lavos in 1999 AD, Kid was probably raised by someone else in that case.

She's not pursuing Lynx in Home World because Home World Lynx died with the Dragoons in the Dead Sea. So no word of Lucca's killer on El Nido, she has no reason to go there.

No, Kid was raised by Lucca in both worlds.

But I am still not convinced Kid MUST be in Home World.  It is possible that Lucca dying in 1999 AD would in turn cause changes prior to 1010 AD that were dependent on Lavos being defeated.  A change in the future that affected the past, prior to the split.  Otherwise there would be a paradox that could not be explained.  If Lucca finds Kid in 1004 AD because it was before 1010 AD, but died against Lavos in 1999 AD before said event takes place...well you see the problem.  So the only answer is a butterfly effect where some events prior to the split change due to alternate outcomes that took place in the future, after the split.  The way I see it, this eliminates Lucca from 1004 AD because she never visits that time before defeating Lavos.  So if this would work for her, there is no reason Kid would be any different.

Are you sure she died in 1999AD? Besides, by the rules of CT time travel, the Lucca that finds Kid in 1004AD won't be affected if suddenly something meddles with a past self of hers. More so when that past self is in the future. No matter what happens to Crono and company now, they will still return to 1000AD, the version of them that succeeded and made the time travel back. Read up on Time Traveler's Immunity that the Compendium came up with, it explains it quite well why Lucca would still exist in 1004AD so long there's no further time meddling before 1004AD.

Also, you're using the wrong kind of linear thought. Lucca finding Kid is after she helps defeat Lavos, yes, but that's only in her personal history. For the time line, it happens way before. Therefore, the time line can be altered at any point after 1004AD and there would still be a Lucca, victorious against Lavos, that emerged in 1000AD and finds Kids years later, because it's not 1000AD itself that's being meddled. Only 1999AD.

In fact, the most accepted reason that the bad future returns in Home World is because the split essentially created a new timeline from scratch. Crono and company's time traveling is still bound to Another World. Which means it's more likely there simply was no Crono and company to emerge in 1999AD, since said time travel TO 1999AD wasn't copied.

Lavos does not die in Home World, so there is no fusion with Schala to create the Time Devourer in this timeline.  This was the event that prompted her to make a daughter clone to begin with, so there is no reason to expect she did.  It makes the most sense that due to an alternate outcome from the future, Lucca and Kid are eliminated from the present (in their own way).  Furthermore I do not see TTI playing a role because this is not just a change in history, but an entirely new timeline.  Logic dictates that in this case, this would just be another alteration based on possible outcomes that was caused by a butterfly effect due to a crucial change actually taking place in the future, but had direct influence on another event that would have taken place in the past.

Once again, wrong kind of linearity. Lavos also has the same Time Traveler's Immunity Crono and company have. This is because Lavos wasn't physically within the planet, he was in a sort of pocket dimension. His emergence in 1999AD was him leaving the pocket dimension, which is also a kind of time/dimension travel. Thus, his appearance in 1999AD is protected, as its a past version of him. Said version will still exist, even if his present self is now in the DBT, merged with Schala. Keep in mind that while we call them worlds, Home and Another are more accurate to two intertwined timeline in the same world/dimension. Another should've been discarded to the DBT when Home got created, but that didn't happen. It's an anomaly, but it's still one dimension. So, Time Devourer exists for both. And again, by Time Traveler's Immunity, Kid's entry to 1004AD is protected, no matter what happens to the time line. Maybe if she had been born after the future split, but that didn't happen.

To clarify with an example of the inverse, Dalton would still raise the Porre military to attack Guardia in Home World.  The event that caused him to do so took place before Crono and gang had their final battle with Lavos.  He would have had no way of knowing they were dead, so he would have acted out the same way he did before the split.  The reason Kid and Lucca are affected is because the event that prompts Kid being born in 1004 AD and Lucca finding her takes place in the distant future, long after the split.

Again, wrong kind of linearity. There will be still a Crono, Marle, and Lucca for Dalton to plan his revenge on. So long nothing happens to them before Dalton's own arrival to the timeline, which might've been still in 1000AD, then nothing changes there. And again, Lucca and Kid will still be there, no matter what happens to Lucca's past self in 1999AD, or to Schala.

As for references to Radical Dreamers, they could have carried on without her.  No where did it clarify that Kid was the leader of said gang, nor that she founded it.  So the gang of theives being active on the mainland has no influence over Kid's existence in Home World.  But even if for some reason she was born, she would have had to have been raised by someone other than Lucca.  I suppose there is that quote from Kato that suggests she might be on the mainland, so it is possible.  However that could just be him being ambiguous, which he did A LOT with Chrono Cross.  I just do not see any in world evidence to back it up and considering how Cross ended, there would never be a need to go back and clarify such a comment in a potential sequel.  He could have said pretty much anything and it would have had no impact on future plans he may have had at the time, nor the overall plot in Cross.

No, it was indeed founded by Kid and is the leader. This is explained better in Radical Dreamers (the game), where the group is just her, Magil/Magus, and that world's Serge. Again, there is going to exist a Home World version of Kid since she was inserted into the timeline pre-split, her arrival is an assured thing no matter what happens to the events that led to her creation, and said Home World version just simply doesn't have a reason to go El Nido, hence her non-factor in Cross's story. And the whole Dreamers thing comes form Lucca. She did a similar thing with Nikki which inspired to name his band the Magical Dreamers. It's not a coincidence. Both Kid and Nikki named their groups after Lucca's talk of dreams.

Either way fits into the theory nicely, but I strongly lean toward her not being present at all in Home World.  There is no solid evidence that she is present, and the events that cause her to be born are a clear alteration to the timeline as far as I can tell.  This is all of course, under the assumption that Crono, Marle, and Lucca all die fighting Lavos in 1999 AD in Home World, which is implied to be the case.

So to recap... no, she definitely exists in Home World. Her arrival to the timeline is a protected thing from any past alterations, and since it was pre-split then she was split with the worlds. Same for Lucca's, her arrival back to 1000AD from 1999AD after she beat Lavos is protected. So even if time changed in 1999AD so she dies instead won't affect present Lucca because that happened to a past version of Lucca. Again, it's more likely that the past versions of Crono and company that were meant to arrive to 1999AD to fight Lavos simply... didn't. And as established by CT, what happens to past versions of characters do not affect their present selves.

As for why would there still be a past version of Lavos to emerged in 1999AD? Well, the pocket dimension is its own thing. By it's very name, it's contained within the world, even if it's not physically present. So the pocket dimension gets copied, Lavos still comes out on schedule. Though this last part is just conjecture on my part.

If you want further proof of Kid existing in Home World, Ultimania has this:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/4/42/074-075.jpg

Notice how Kid's Home World status is a dash. This denotes "Exists, but does not appear in the game", when you consider the other characters that have that dash. Characters who we know have to have world counterparts, but we simply don't know what they're up to in the present. It's certainly different from the X that denotes being dead (like the Another versions of Serge and Marge, and the Home version of Direa, for example) or the ? that likely denotes "Fate unknown", though we certainly learn about some of them, like the Home Dragoons. If Kid didn't exist in Home World at the present, she'd have the ?, or even X.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 04:21:44 am by Acacia Sgt »

Kodokami

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 12:46:34 pm »
I haven't yet fully read all of this (there's a lot of great stuff here I need to digest!), so forgive me if it's been mentioned already, but...

Isn't the theory here at the Compendium for why Home World's future is destroyed, is because HW is a split off of Another World instead of a true new timeline? What I mean is, whenever an event would cause a change to a timeline's past, it creates a new timeline from that point with an identical but mirrored past (two lines); whereas HW is a unique case for some reason, because instead of being a new timeline, it's a splintered path on one line (like a fork with only two prongs).

So everything up until the 1010 split is identical because it's literally the same timeline (the fork's handle). If someone were to time travel to the future from the handle, they only end up on one path (one prong), in this case, always Another World. Which means that when Crono & Co. time travel from the past to defeat Lavos in 1999, they only appear and succeed in AW's future. Meanwhile, because Home World is a separate path, they don't appear in 1999 despite being it the same "timeline", so Lavos destroys the world, which is reflected in the Dead Sea.

Sheiken

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 08:36:56 am »
Ah yes, good point.  In that case, it would explain why she apparently was not pursuing Lynx.  Since Lucca would have died fighting Lavos in 1999 AD, Kid was probably raised by someone else in that case.

She's not pursuing Lynx in Home World because Home World Lynx died with the Dragoons in the Dead Sea. So no word of Lucca's killer on El Nido, she has no reason to go there.

No, Kid was raised by Lucca in both worlds.

But I am still not convinced Kid MUST be in Home World.  It is possible that Lucca dying in 1999 AD would in turn cause changes prior to 1010 AD that were dependent on Lavos being defeated.  A change in the future that affected the past, prior to the split.  Otherwise there would be a paradox that could not be explained.  If Lucca finds Kid in 1004 AD because it was before 1010 AD, but died against Lavos in 1999 AD before said event takes place...well you see the problem.  So the only answer is a butterfly effect where some events prior to the split change due to alternate outcomes that took place in the future, after the split.  The way I see it, this eliminates Lucca from 1004 AD because she never visits that time before defeating Lavos.  So if this would work for her, there is no reason Kid would be any different.

Are you sure she died in 1999AD? Besides, by the rules of CT time travel, the Lucca that finds Kid in 1004AD won't be affected if suddenly something meddles with a past self of hers. More so when that past self is in the future. No matter what happens to Crono and company now, they will still return to 1000AD, the version of them that succeeded and made the time travel back. Read up on Time Traveler's Immunity that the Compendium came up with, it explains it quite well why Lucca would still exist in 1004AD so long there's no further time meddling before 1004AD.

Also, you're using the wrong kind of linear thought. Lucca finding Kid is after she helps defeat Lavos, yes, but that's only in her personal history. For the time line, it happens way before. Therefore, the time line can be altered at any point after 1004AD and there would still be a Lucca, victorious against Lavos, that emerged in 1000AD and finds Kids years later, because it's not 1000AD itself that's being meddled. Only 1999AD.

In fact, the most accepted reason that the bad future returns in Home World is because the split essentially created a new timeline from scratch. Crono and company's time traveling is still bound to Another World. Which means it's more likely there simply was no Crono and company to emerge in 1999AD, since said time travel TO 1999AD wasn't copied.

Lavos does not die in Home World, so there is no fusion with Schala to create the Time Devourer in this timeline.  This was the event that prompted her to make a daughter clone to begin with, so there is no reason to expect she did.  It makes the most sense that due to an alternate outcome from the future, Lucca and Kid are eliminated from the present (in their own way).  Furthermore I do not see TTI playing a role because this is not just a change in history, but an entirely new timeline.  Logic dictates that in this case, this would just be another alteration based on possible outcomes that was caused by a butterfly effect due to a crucial change actually taking place in the future, but had direct influence on another event that would have taken place in the past.

Once again, wrong kind of linearity. Lavos also has the same Time Traveler's Immunity Crono and company have. This is because Lavos wasn't physically within the planet, he was in a sort of pocket dimension. His emergence in 1999AD was him leaving the pocket dimension, which is also a kind of time/dimension travel. Thus, his appearance in 1999AD is protected, as its a past version of him. Said version will still exist, even if his present self is now in the DBT, merged with Schala. Keep in mind that while we call them worlds, Home and Another are more accurate to two intertwined timeline in the same world/dimension. Another should've been discarded to the DBT when Home got created, but that didn't happen. It's an anomaly, but it's still one dimension. So, Time Devourer exists for both. And again, by Time Traveler's Immunity, Kid's entry to 1004AD is protected, no matter what happens to the time line. Maybe if she had been born after the future split, but that didn't happen.

To clarify with an example of the inverse, Dalton would still raise the Porre military to attack Guardia in Home World.  The event that caused him to do so took place before Crono and gang had their final battle with Lavos.  He would have had no way of knowing they were dead, so he would have acted out the same way he did before the split.  The reason Kid and Lucca are affected is because the event that prompts Kid being born in 1004 AD and Lucca finding her takes place in the distant future, long after the split.

Again, wrong kind of linearity. There will be still a Crono, Marle, and Lucca for Dalton to plan his revenge on. So long nothing happens to them before Dalton's own arrival to the timeline, which might've been still in 1000AD, then nothing changes there. And again, Lucca and Kid will still be there, no matter what happens to Lucca's past self in 1999AD, or to Schala.

As for references to Radical Dreamers, they could have carried on without her.  No where did it clarify that Kid was the leader of said gang, nor that she founded it.  So the gang of theives being active on the mainland has no influence over Kid's existence in Home World.  But even if for some reason she was born, she would have had to have been raised by someone other than Lucca.  I suppose there is that quote from Kato that suggests she might be on the mainland, so it is possible.  However that could just be him being ambiguous, which he did A LOT with Chrono Cross.  I just do not see any in world evidence to back it up and considering how Cross ended, there would never be a need to go back and clarify such a comment in a potential sequel.  He could have said pretty much anything and it would have had no impact on future plans he may have had at the time, nor the overall plot in Cross.

No, it was indeed founded by Kid and is the leader. This is explained better in Radical Dreamers (the game), where the group is just her, Magil/Magus, and that world's Serge. Again, there is going to exist a Home World version of Kid since she was inserted into the timeline pre-split, her arrival is an assured thing no matter what happens to the events that led to her creation, and said Home World version just simply doesn't have a reason to go El Nido, hence her non-factor in Cross's story. And the whole Dreamers thing comes form Lucca. She did a similar thing with Nikki which inspired to name his band the Magical Dreamers. It's not a coincidence. Both Kid and Nikki named their groups after Lucca's talk of dreams.

Either way fits into the theory nicely, but I strongly lean toward her not being present at all in Home World.  There is no solid evidence that she is present, and the events that cause her to be born are a clear alteration to the timeline as far as I can tell.  This is all of course, under the assumption that Crono, Marle, and Lucca all die fighting Lavos in 1999 AD in Home World, which is implied to be the case.

So to recap... no, she definitely exists in Home World. Her arrival to the timeline is a protected thing from any past alterations, and since it was pre-split then she was split with the worlds. Same for Lucca's, her arrival back to 1000AD from 1999AD after she beat Lavos is protected. So even if time changed in 1999AD so she dies instead won't affect present Lucca because that happened to a past version of Lucca. Again, it's more likely that the past versions of Crono and company that were meant to arrive to 1999AD to fight Lavos simply... didn't. And as established by CT, what happens to past versions of characters do not affect their present selves.

As for why would there still be a past version of Lavos to emerged in 1999AD? Well, the pocket dimension is its own thing. By it's very name, it's contained within the world, even if it's not physically present. So the pocket dimension gets copied, Lavos still comes out on schedule. Though this last part is just conjecture on my part.

If you want further proof of Kid existing in Home World, Ultimania has this:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/4/42/074-075.jpg

Notice how Kid's Home World status is a dash. This denotes "Exists, but does not appear in the game", when you consider the other characters that have that dash. Characters who we know have to have world counterparts, but we simply don't know what they're up to in the present. It's certainly different from the X that denotes being dead (like the Another versions of Serge and Marge, and the Home version of Direa, for example) or the ? that likely denotes "Fate unknown", though we certainly learn about some of them, like the Home Dragoons. If Kid didn't exist in Home World at the present, she'd have the ?, or even X.

I thought long and hard on the best way to reply, and I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  First let me point out that when I make my theories, I only care about in game evidence.  Anything found in guidebooks (such as ultimania) is taken with a grain of salt, as they are not truely written by the creators.  An example of this is the Legend of Zelda Timeline.  There is a trilogy of books that are considered canon, but the 1st and 3rd book directly contradict eachother (Hyrule Historia and Hyrule Encyclopedia).  The placement of one of the games (Link's Awakening) is changed as well as the description of other games (Majora's Mask for example) has changed as well.  They are written by the same group of people and both signed off by the creators at Nintendo as canon.  Now one could argue that Zelda was never meant to have a timeline, but that would mean ignoring Aonuma's constant claims that there was one long before the first book was written (which makes one question comments made by the writers outside of the games themselves as well).  Now Kato is not Aonuma and Chrono is not Zelda, but this is just an example as to how guide books and interviews may not be as definitive as some might think.  So whether you accept the Zelda Timeline as canon or not, it just proves that pretty much anything outside of in-world evidence is subject to change and should be taken with a grain of salt.  Radical Dreamers itself is an example of an idea Kato had, but was later reformed into Chrono Cross.  Many of his original visions changed between games, the only difference is that Radical Dreamers was still included in canon through in-game explaination by way of being yet another alternate reality.

I am definitely not on board with the whole "Home World is created from scratch" theory, where Crono and gang do not time travel.  That creates more problems than answers because now there is no explanation for why Dalton would be there for the Fall of Guardia and most of what you just said would be null and void due to TTI within the original timeline being a non-factor because if the world was created from scratch with no time travel, nothing that required time travel to begin with could play out exactly the same.  The rules for TTI would not affect a completely new world created from scratch, so it pretty much has to be a direct split rather than and entirely new timeline from creation.  Not to mention Serge would not be the Arbiter of the Flame as Chronopolis would never have been a factor, which sends the entire plot of Cross into disarray.  There is even evidence within home world that shows everything prior to the split was the same, because until the split happens Chronopolis is present and Serge comes into contact with the flame.  Then overtime, due to having a different future after the split, the Sea of Eden transforms into the Dead Sea to reflect that changed future.  This is supported by the fact that key characters in Home World remember it once being the Sea of Eden, and changing 3 years prior to Cross.  Miguel himself confirms this within the Dead Sea and Serge's mother confirms that Serge's father still becomes Lynx.  All of this combined suggests that time travel was still a thing in Home World, and any alterations came after a direct split from Another World.

And now we get to the part where I agree with you, everything prior to the split would be protected under TTI.  This includes Kid, Lucca, and Crono being present for the Fall of Guardia (which means the Porre version of them in this theory would exist as well).  This is supported by the fact that El Nido itself is still present (something I failed to think about prior to your reply).  El Nido was created by FATE, who is only present in Another World after the split.  So unless events leading up to Serge's death remained the exact same, and are protected by TTI, El Nido would not exist in Home World.  This is again, also supported by how the Sea of Eden goes through a change where Chronopolis vanishes and the Dead Sea is formed, as stated by Miguel.  He also refers to the Ghost Children as "echos from a future that no longer exists", which means at one point it did.  Another thing worth noting is that Nadia's Bell is present in the Dead Sea, which never goes up until after Lavos is defeated.  This however is circumstantial, as it could be argued that the King was going to have it made regardless of events in Trigger.

So everything still taking place in Home World but protected under TTI is essential for the mess of a timeline that is Home World to exist the way it does with any feasible in-game explaination behind it.  So in this scenario, Crono fails to kill Lavos in 1999 AD and this version of Crono, Marle, and Lucca die to become the ghost children.  This is what is reflected by the Dead Sea and the versions of them that exist in periods prior would still be there via TTI.  When Lucca says, "I don't mean to upset you, but we no longer exist in this timeline" she must be refering to that specific version of them that failed in Home World.

So to recap, Crono, Marle, and Lucca die against Lavos in Home World 1999 AD to become the ghost children.  The past versions of themselves, including Lavos and events tied to him in the Time Crash, are protected under TTI as Home World is a splintered and intertwined timeline from Another World from Serge being saved onward.  This allows El Nido to exist and Serge to come into contact with the flame to become the Arbiter.  Kid also exists, but has no reason to travel to El Nido.  The reason Another World does not get sent directly to the DBT is likely due to Serge being the Arbiter and Kid being tied to Schala in the DBT itself.  This could be why the anomaly of two separate timelines was created in this case.  Chronopolis does confrim the existence of a 3rd and 4th timeline by way of Radical Dreamers and Dinopolis, which raises another question however.  Does the timeline split everytime there is a significant change to history, resulting in alternate realities similar to Home World and Another World?  Or is this where the "many worlds" theory comes into play, where every possibility has a reality of its own, and only Another World and Home World are directly connected?  And if that is the case, how would Dinopolis be pulled into Another World prior to the split if they are not already connected to begin with?  This has no bearing on the discussion of how Home World works, but it is a question I ask myself everytime someone calls the split in Cross an anomaly.

Thank you for your feedback, as I feel a much stronger understanding regarding how Home World functions through further reflection combined with the info you provided.  Please let me know if I forgot anything else.  Your input is very welcome in all of my theories.

Also, what do you think about the theory this thread is about?  I love our conversation about Home World, but you did not make any mention as to how you feel about Crono, Lucca, and Marle becoming part of Porre in the original post as we got side tracked.  Also do you agree to the possibility of how and why this would take place?

I haven't yet fully read all of this (there's a lot of great stuff here I need to digest!), so forgive me if it's been mentioned already, but...

Isn't the theory here at the Compendium for why Home World's future is destroyed, is because HW is a split off of Another World instead of a true new timeline? What I mean is, whenever an event would cause a change to a timeline's past, it creates a new timeline from that point with an identical but mirrored past (two lines); whereas HW is a unique case for some reason, because instead of being a new timeline, it's a splintered path on one line (like a fork with only two prongs).

So everything up until the 1010 split is identical because it's literally the same timeline (the fork's handle). If someone were to time travel to the future from the handle, they only end up on one path (one prong), in this case, always Another World. Which means that when Crono & Co. time travel from the past to defeat Lavos in 1999, they only appear and succeed in AW's future. Meanwhile, because Home World is a separate path, they don't appear in 1999 despite being it the same "timeline", so Lavos destroys the world, which is reflected in the Dead Sea.

There are many theories as to how the splits work.  Some suggest that every timeline alteration results in a split that we may never explore in the Chrono universe.  Others suggest that when a new timeline is created, the old one is sent to the DBT and essentially erased from existence.  This is why people often refer to Home World and Another World as an anomaly, but that does not account for Radical Dreamers and Dinopolis (which is why I asked the question I did to Acacia Sgt).

As for Crono never appearing in the future to fight Lavos in Home World, this is also a possibility of how that went down while the past versions of Crono and gang that succeeded still exist via TTI.  In this scenario, the ghost children would likely be an echo of the future that was erased in Home World, taking the form and persona of the heros that were meant to save it originally.  This fits with Miguel's description of "echos of a future that no longer exists"  as well as ghost Lucca claiming they no longer exist in that timeline (as they are just echos of an erased future).
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 10:31:42 am by Sheiken »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2020, 08:48:00 pm »
I thought long and hard on the best way to reply, and I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  First let me point out that when I make my theories, I only care about in game evidence.  Anything found in guidebooks (such as ultimania) is taken with a grain of salt, as they are not truely written by the creators.  An example of this is the Legend of Zelda Timeline.  There is a trilogy of books that are considered canon, but the 1st and 3rd book directly contradict eachother (Hyrule Historia and Hyrule Encyclopedia).  The placement of one of the games (Link's Awakening) is changed as well as the description of other games (Majora's Mask for example) has changed as well.  They are written by the same group of people and both signed off by the creators at Nintendo as canon.  Now one could argue that Zelda was never meant to have a timeline, but that would mean ignoring Aonuma's constant claims that there was one long before the first book was written (which makes one question comments made by the writers outside of the games themselves as well).  Now Kato is not Aonuma and Chrono is not Zelda, but this is just an example as to how guide books and interviews may not be as definitive as some might think.  So whether you accept the Zelda Timeline as canon or not, it just proves that pretty much anything outside of in-world evidence is subject to change and should be taken with a grain of salt.  Radical Dreamers itself is an example of an idea Kato had, but was later reformed into Chrono Cross.  Many of his original visions changed between games, the only difference is that Radical Dreamers was still included in canon through in-game explaination by way of being yet another alternate reality.

Not everything the game developers intend to can get included into the game. Cross was no exception. The info dumps from the ghost children at Opassa is one such example where the developers just, well, dumped it there because they couldn't put it somewhere else. Even then more info got left out. Which is why we have stuffs like the Ultimania guides. They're canon. Not just for Cross, but other games who have entries in there with the same sort of situations. Whether you accept it or not, it's still canon. Keep in mind that even the game itself will have info that got inserted incorrectly. So outside sources also work to correct that stuff.

I am definitely not on board with the whole "Home World is created from scratch" theory, where Crono and gang do not time travel.  That creates more problems than answers because now there is no explanation for why Dalton would be there for the Fall of Guardia and most of what you just said would be null and void due to TTI within the original timeline being a non-factor because if the world was created from scratch with no time travel, nothing that required time travel to begin with could play out exactly the same.  The rules for TTI would not affect a completely new world created from scratch, so it pretty much has to be a direct split rather than and entirely new timeline from creation.  Not to mention Serge would not be the Arbiter of the Flame as Chronopolis would never have been a factor, which sends the entire plot of Cross into disarray.  There is even evidence within home world that shows everything prior to the split was the same, because until the split happens Chronopolis is present and Serge comes into contact with the flame.  Then overtime, due to having a different future after the split, the Sea of Eden transforms into the Dead Sea to reflect that changed future.  This is supported by the fact that key characters in Home World remember it once being the Sea of Eden, and changing 3 years prior to Cross.  Miguel himself confirms this within the Dead Sea and Serge's mother confirms that Serge's father still becomes Lynx.  All of this combined suggests that time travel was still a thing in Home World, and any alterations came after a direct split from Another World.

Why would Dalton not be there? Everything related to him is pre-split, and every time travel case before the split is also preserved. Only the time travels that happen after 1010AD do not carry over as they're confined to Another World. Lavos's own to 1999AD is preserved because his pocket dimension likely got duplicated too, so it's Home World Lavos emerging in HW 1999AD.

Serge is the Arbitrer regardless to what happens to Chronopolis after the split, because it's a trait that was created pre-split, in 1006AD. That doesn't change.

Home World only existing from 1010AD onward is still tied to the single timeline that exists before the point of the split. Like Kodokami says, it's like a fork. Both timeline share what happens before, but after the split it's fair game what happens different on each. If you want some visual representation, it's basically this:

https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/leto-arrows-2/64/_split_fork_arrow-512.png

The way the time travel works is that everything after a point of divergence gets thrown to the DBT, replaced with a new time line that develops in accordance to the change. Everything before the point is unaffected. The Home/Another split happened because instead of Another World being thrown to the DBT, it... didn't. Home World simply branched on its own, without replacing Another. As a result, instead of a single line, we end with a fork, but everything before remains unaffected as usual.

So everything still taking place in Home World but protected under TTI is essential for the mess of a timeline that is Home World to exist the way it does with any feasible in-game explaination behind it.  So in this scenario, Crono fails to kill Lavos in 1999 AD and this version of Crono, Marle, and Lucca die to become the ghost children.  This is what is reflected by the Dead Sea and the versions of them that exist in periods prior would still be there via TTI.  When Lucca says, "I don't mean to upset you, but we no longer exist in this timeline" she must be refering to that specific version of them that failed in Home World.

So to recap, Crono, Marle, and Lucca die against Lavos in Home World 1999 AD to become the ghost children.  The past versions of themselves, including Lavos and events tied to him in the Time Crash, are protected under TTI as Home World is a splintered and intertwined timeline from Another World from Serge being saved onward.  This allows El Nido to exist and Serge to come into contact with the flame to become the Arbiter.  Kid also exists, but has no reason to travel to El Nido.  The reason Another World does not get sent directly to the DBT is likely due to Serge being the Arbiter and Kid being tied to Schala in the DBT itself.  This could be why the anomaly of two separate timelines was created in this case.  Chronopolis does confrim the existence of a 3rd and 4th timeline by way of Radical Dreamers and Dinopolis, which raises another question however.  Does the timeline split everytime there is a significant change to history, resulting in alternate realities similar to Home World and Another World?  Or is this where the "many worlds" theory comes into play, where every possibility has a reality of its own, and only Another World and Home World are directly connected?  And if that is the case, how would Dinopolis be pulled into Another World prior to the split if they are not already connected to begin with?  This has no bearing on the discussion of how Home World works, but it is a question I ask myself everytime someone calls the split in Cross an anomaly.

No, they can't be versions that failed to beat Home World Lavos, since those versions of them that fought Lavos are still confined in Another World. This also means the past versions of them running around in Home 2300AD don't exist either, since it's post-split. El Nido exists since Chronopolis travel or connection to the past (there's a theory that Chronopolis didn't physically traveled to the past, but rather, it's encased in a time bubble that got connected to the past, so when traveling to the Sea of Eden, you're time traveling to 15400AD or so instead.), their work is TTI protected, regardless of what happens to its 2400AD version anyway. Prevent the Time Crash? Too late, El Nido won't stop existing.

No, splits like Another/Home aren't the norm. Dinopolis and Radical Dreamers are different worlds/dimensions. Not different timelines confined in the same world. The terminology is all over the place since Another and Home are referred as worlds, worlds, and dimensions; but it's more accurate to say that Another and Home share a world, then Dinopolis is its own world with its own timeline, and the same for Radical Dreamers.

As for how Dinopolis could get pulled... well, the Planet/Entity did it, and we honestly know very little about it. It may be have an inter-dimensional presence or connection with itself across the multiverse that allows it to pull things from one world where it exists into another. Not one timeline to another. World/dimension to world/dimension.

By the way, have you read this article?

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ghost_Children.html

It goes on about theorizing about the true nature of the ghost children and what their existence means.

Also, what do you think about the theory this thread is about?  I love our conversation about Home World, but you did not make any mention as to how you feel about Crono, Lucca, and Marle becoming part of Porre in the original post as we got side tracked.  Also do you agree to the possibility of how and why this would take place?

Your theory relies on things that are incorrect, so can't comment on it, honestly. Also, the only evidence that points to them possibly still alive regardless of world is Lucca's letter, which isn't decisive, suffice to say.

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2020, 09:16:24 pm »
I thought long and hard on the best way to reply, and I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  First let me point out that when I make my theories, I only care about in game evidence.  Anything found in guidebooks (such as ultimania) is taken with a grain of salt, as they are not truely written by the creators.  An example of this is the Legend of Zelda Timeline.  There is a trilogy of books that are considered canon, but the 1st and 3rd book directly contradict eachother (Hyrule Historia and Hyrule Encyclopedia).  The placement of one of the games (Link's Awakening) is changed as well as the description of other games (Majora's Mask for example) has changed as well.  They are written by the same group of people and both signed off by the creators at Nintendo as canon.  Now one could argue that Zelda was never meant to have a timeline, but that would mean ignoring Aonuma's constant claims that there was one long before the first book was written (which makes one question comments made by the writers outside of the games themselves as well).  Now Kato is not Aonuma and Chrono is not Zelda, but this is just an example as to how guide books and interviews may not be as definitive as some might think.  So whether you accept the Zelda Timeline as canon or not, it just proves that pretty much anything outside of in-world evidence is subject to change and should be taken with a grain of salt.  Radical Dreamers itself is an example of an idea Kato had, but was later reformed into Chrono Cross.  Many of his original visions changed between games, the only difference is that Radical Dreamers was still included in canon through in-game explaination by way of being yet another alternate reality.

Not everything the game developers intend to can get included into the game. Cross was no exception. The info dumps from the ghost children at Opassa is one such example where the developers just, well, dumped it there because they couldn't put it somewhere else. Even then more info got left out. Which is why we have stuffs like the Ultimania guides. They're canon. Not just for Cross, but other games who have entries in there with the same sort of situations. Whether you accept it or not, it's still canon. Keep in mind that even the game itself will have info that got inserted incorrectly. So outside sources also work to correct that stuff.

I am definitely not on board with the whole "Home World is created from scratch" theory, where Crono and gang do not time travel.  That creates more problems than answers because now there is no explanation for why Dalton would be there for the Fall of Guardia and most of what you just said would be null and void due to TTI within the original timeline being a non-factor because if the world was created from scratch with no time travel, nothing that required time travel to begin with could play out exactly the same.  The rules for TTI would not affect a completely new world created from scratch, so it pretty much has to be a direct split rather than and entirely new timeline from creation.  Not to mention Serge would not be the Arbiter of the Flame as Chronopolis would never have been a factor, which sends the entire plot of Cross into disarray.  There is even evidence within home world that shows everything prior to the split was the same, because until the split happens Chronopolis is present and Serge comes into contact with the flame.  Then overtime, due to having a different future after the split, the Sea of Eden transforms into the Dead Sea to reflect that changed future.  This is supported by the fact that key characters in Home World remember it once being the Sea of Eden, and changing 3 years prior to Cross.  Miguel himself confirms this within the Dead Sea and Serge's mother confirms that Serge's father still becomes Lynx.  All of this combined suggests that time travel was still a thing in Home World, and any alterations came after a direct split from Another World.

Why would Dalton not be there? Everything related to him is pre-split, and every time travel case before the split is also preserved. Only the time travels that happen after 1010AD do not carry over as they're confined to Another World. Lavos's own to 1999AD is preserved because his pocket dimension likely got duplicated too, so it's Home World Lavos emerging in HW 1999AD.

Serge is the Arbitrer regardless to what happens to Chronopolis after the split, because it's a trait that was created pre-split, in 1006AD. That doesn't change.

Home World only existing from 1010AD onward is still tied to the single timeline that exists before the point of the split. Like Kodokami says, it's like a fork. Both timeline share what happens before, but after the split it's fair game what happens different on each. If you want some visual representation, it's basically this:

https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/leto-arrows-2/64/_split_fork_arrow-512.png

The way the time travel works is that everything after a point of divergence gets thrown to the DBT, replaced with a new time line that develops in accordance to the change. Everything before the point is unaffected. The Home/Another split happened because instead of Another World being thrown to the DBT, it... didn't. Home World simply branched on its own, without replacing Another. As a result, instead of a single line, we end with a fork, but everything before remains unaffected as usual.

So everything still taking place in Home World but protected under TTI is essential for the mess of a timeline that is Home World to exist the way it does with any feasible in-game explaination behind it.  So in this scenario, Crono fails to kill Lavos in 1999 AD and this version of Crono, Marle, and Lucca die to become the ghost children.  This is what is reflected by the Dead Sea and the versions of them that exist in periods prior would still be there via TTI.  When Lucca says, "I don't mean to upset you, but we no longer exist in this timeline" she must be refering to that specific version of them that failed in Home World.

So to recap, Crono, Marle, and Lucca die against Lavos in Home World 1999 AD to become the ghost children.  The past versions of themselves, including Lavos and events tied to him in the Time Crash, are protected under TTI as Home World is a splintered and intertwined timeline from Another World from Serge being saved onward.  This allows El Nido to exist and Serge to come into contact with the flame to become the Arbiter.  Kid also exists, but has no reason to travel to El Nido.  The reason Another World does not get sent directly to the DBT is likely due to Serge being the Arbiter and Kid being tied to Schala in the DBT itself.  This could be why the anomaly of two separate timelines was created in this case.  Chronopolis does confrim the existence of a 3rd and 4th timeline by way of Radical Dreamers and Dinopolis, which raises another question however.  Does the timeline split everytime there is a significant change to history, resulting in alternate realities similar to Home World and Another World?  Or is this where the "many worlds" theory comes into play, where every possibility has a reality of its own, and only Another World and Home World are directly connected?  And if that is the case, how would Dinopolis be pulled into Another World prior to the split if they are not already connected to begin with?  This has no bearing on the discussion of how Home World works, but it is a question I ask myself everytime someone calls the split in Cross an anomaly.

No, they can't be versions that failed to beat Home World Lavos, since those versions of them that fought Lavos are still confined in Another World. This also means the past versions of them running around in Home 2300AD don't exist either, since it's post-split. El Nido exists since Chronopolis travel or connection to the past (there's a theory that Chronopolis didn't physically traveled to the past, but rather, it's encased in a time bubble that got connected to the past, so when traveling to the Sea of Eden, you're time traveling to 15400AD or so instead.), their work is TTI protected, regardless of what happens to its 2400AD version anyway. Prevent the Time Crash? Too late, El Nido won't stop existing.

No, splits like Another/Home aren't the norm. Dinopolis and Radical Dreamers are different worlds/dimensions. Not different timelines confined in the same world. The terminology is all over the place since Another and Home are referred as worlds, worlds, and dimensions; but it's more accurate to say that Another and Home share a world, then Dinopolis is its own world with its own timeline, and the same for Radical Dreamers.

As for how Dinopolis could get pulled... well, the Planet/Entity did it, and we honestly know very little about it. It may be have an inter-dimensional presence or connection with itself across the multiverse that allows it to pull things from one world where it exists into another. Not one timeline to another. World/dimension to world/dimension.

By the way, have you read this article?

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ghost_Children.html

It goes on about theorizing about the true nature of the ghost children and what their existence means.

Also, what do you think about the theory this thread is about?  I love our conversation about Home World, but you did not make any mention as to how you feel about Crono, Lucca, and Marle becoming part of Porre in the original post as we got side tracked.  Also do you agree to the possibility of how and why this would take place?

Your theory relies on things that are incorrect, so can't comment on it, honestly. Also, the only evidence that points to them possibly still alive regardless of world is Lucca's letter, which isn't decisive, suffice to say.

About Home World, the way you worded it made you sound like it was made from scratch from creation (by creation I mean creation of the planet itself or the start of all time) and I was talking about why that could not be the case.  I have always implied that Home World splits off of Another world as a "fork".  In fact, you basically just described my entire point in your follow up reply.

As for there being no time travel in the future, I already said I agreed with the notion and saw it as valid in my reply to Kodokami.  Why bother going into detail about it again, when that wasn't even what I was debating against to begin with.  I was arguing Home World would not exist from scratch without time travel at all, and you put a spin on it to make it sound like I was implying something else.  When you say a new timeline is created by scratch, direct quote from you, it is implied that you meant from the beginning of all time and not split from Another World.  It was a simple misunderstanding due to poor wording on your part (for that part of your prior post, the rest was well done).  The only difference between what we are saying at that point would be Crono fighting Lavos in 1999 AD would not happen, which again I already agreed with Kodokami.  It does make a lot more sense that way.

As for the Porre theory being based on incorrect information, no none of it is incorrect.  It is a THEORY based on analysis of in game evidence.  As a theory, I am saying it is POSSIBLE but there is not enough hard evidence to call it fact.  Thats what a theory is...a theory.

So please, tell me what was "incorrect" about the theory.  I even clarify that most of it is open to interpretation, and explain how it would work.  So unless you have something constructive to add other than, "incorrect information" without clarification, it just seems to me you don't like the theory but lack any evidence to disprove it.  There is a big difference between an interpretation of information that cannot be confirmed, and incorrect information.

(sorry if I seem irritated, I am just a but frustrated that we put out two rather drawn out replies to one another based on a misunderstanding when we were for the most part agreeing on the same thing lol.)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 09:40:56 pm by Sheiken »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2020, 12:43:59 am »
About Home World, the way you worded it made you sound like it was made from scratch from creation (by creation I mean creation of the planet itself or the start of all time) and I was talking about why that could not be the case.  I have always implied that Home World splits off of Another world as a "fork".  In fact, you basically just described my entire point in your follow up reply.

I think the misunderstanding may be true, as that's what your posts also made it seem. With all the "This can't happen due the split" and stuff.

As for there being no time travel in the future, I already said I agreed with the notion and saw it as valid in my reply to Kodokami.  Why bother going into detail about it again, when that wasn't even what I was debating against to begin with.  I was arguing Home World would not exist from scratch without time travel at all, and you put a spin on it to make it sound like I was implying something else.  When you say a new timeline is created by scratch, direct quote from you, it is implied that you meant from the beginning of all time and not split from Another World.  It was a simple misunderstanding due to poor wording on your part (for that part of your prior post, the rest was well done).  The only difference between what we are saying at that point would be Crono fighting Lavos in 1999 AD would not happen, which again I already agreed with Kodokami.  It does make a lot more sense that way.

I did stated it was at the point of divergence. The timeline is only changed from the point of the divergence to the future. I did specified that everything before remains the same.

As for the Porre theory being based on incorrect information, no none of it is incorrect.  It is a THEORY based on analysis of in game evidence.  As a theory, I am saying it is POSSIBLE but there is not enough hard evidence to call it fact.  Thats what a theory is...a theory.

So please, tell me what was "incorrect" about the theory.  I even clarify that most of it is open to interpretation, and explain how it would work.  So unless you have something constructive to add other than, "incorrect information" without clarification, it just seems to me you don't like the theory but lack any evidence to disprove it.  There is a big difference between an interpretation of information that cannot be confirmed, and incorrect information.

Some things are indeed wrong. Like the parts about Kid not existing in Home World or Crono and company dying against Lavos in the same. I apologize for that as indeed they aren't part of your theory.

The problem is, your theory relies on the idea that the fates of Crono and company are different in each world. That alone could be fine... if it was post-split. What can make it wrong is that since it's still a single timeline at that point in time, there can be only one fate. As Crono, Lucca, and Marle were present for the Fall from the perspective of Home World too, since it's still only one timeline at that point. So only other option is to be something that happened post-split. Your main point is that the existence of the ghost children shows that Crono, Lucca, and Marle are dead; but since the ghosts don't show up in Another World, then it means they have to be alive over there.

Which means they either all died or lived pre-split... or something happened different in each world that killed them in one but not the other.

Now, Lucca can be accounted for since Lynx attacking the orphanage happened in both worlds. The problem would be for Crono and Marle. Your retaliation idea could work if it happened post-split, where they died in Home but lived in Another. Timelines are already diverging for it to be possible. Still, this relies on their fates being indeed different in each world. But then, it is a theory.

(sorry if I seem irritated, I am just a but frustrated that we put out two rather drawn out replies to one another based on a misunderstanding when we were for the most part agreeing on the same thing lol.)

It's alright. Debates like this can get a bit passionate.

Also, to clarify, my statement wasn't just an "You're wrong", I made the points and the statement was more in the likes of "... and that's why you're wrong". Still, I apologize for that.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 12:48:22 am by Acacia Sgt »

Sheiken

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Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2020, 05:39:49 am »
About Home World, the way you worded it made you sound like it was made from scratch from creation (by creation I mean creation of the planet itself or the start of all time) and I was talking about why that could not be the case.  I have always implied that Home World splits off of Another world as a "fork".  In fact, you basically just described my entire point in your follow up reply.

I think the misunderstanding may be true, as that's what your posts also made it seem. With all the "This can't happen due the split" and stuff.

As for there being no time travel in the future, I already said I agreed with the notion and saw it as valid in my reply to Kodokami.  Why bother going into detail about it again, when that wasn't even what I was debating against to begin with.  I was arguing Home World would not exist from scratch without time travel at all, and you put a spin on it to make it sound like I was implying something else.  When you say a new timeline is created by scratch, direct quote from you, it is implied that you meant from the beginning of all time and not split from Another World.  It was a simple misunderstanding due to poor wording on your part (for that part of your prior post, the rest was well done).  The only difference between what we are saying at that point would be Crono fighting Lavos in 1999 AD would not happen, which again I already agreed with Kodokami.  It does make a lot more sense that way.

I did stated it was at the point of divergence. The timeline is only changed from the point of the divergence to the future. I did specified that everything before remains the same.

As for the Porre theory being based on incorrect information, no none of it is incorrect.  It is a THEORY based on analysis of in game evidence.  As a theory, I am saying it is POSSIBLE but there is not enough hard evidence to call it fact.  Thats what a theory is...a theory.

So please, tell me what was "incorrect" about the theory.  I even clarify that most of it is open to interpretation, and explain how it would work.  So unless you have something constructive to add other than, "incorrect information" without clarification, it just seems to me you don't like the theory but lack any evidence to disprove it.  There is a big difference between an interpretation of information that cannot be confirmed, and incorrect information.

Some things are indeed wrong. Like the parts about Kid not existing in Home World or Crono and company dying against Lavos in the same. I apologize for that as indeed they aren't part of your theory.

The problem is, your theory relies on the idea that the fates of Crono and company are different in each world. That alone could be fine... if it was post-split. What can make it wrong is that since it's still a single timeline at that point in time, there can be only one fate. As Crono, Lucca, and Marle were present for the Fall from the perspective of Home World too, since it's still only one timeline at that point. So only other option is to be something that happened post-split. Your main point is that the existence of the ghost children shows that Crono, Lucca, and Marle are dead; but since the ghosts don't show up in Another World, then it means they have to be alive over there.

Which means they either all died or lived pre-split... or something happened different in each world that killed them in one but not the other.

Now, Lucca can be accounted for since Lynx attacking the orphanage happened in both worlds. The problem would be for Crono and Marle. Your retaliation idea could work if it happened post-split, where they died in Home but lived in Another. Timelines are already diverging for it to be possible. Still, this relies on their fates being indeed different in each world. But then, it is a theory.

(sorry if I seem irritated, I am just a but frustrated that we put out two rather drawn out replies to one another based on a misunderstanding when we were for the most part agreeing on the same thing lol.)

It's alright. Debates like this can get a bit passionate.

Also, to clarify, my statement wasn't just an "You're wrong", I made the points and the statement was more in the likes of "... and that's why you're wrong". Still, I apologize for that.

The theory itself does not need them to be dead or alive in Home World.  Until this discussion, I was basing their death in Home World to be due to a failure in 1999 AD.  After our discussion however, I like the idea that they just never appeared there at all and the Ghost children are more echos of the changed future taking the form and persona of the heros that would have saved it.  So with that in mind, and I did specify this earlier, they would still be alive and a part of Porre in Home World as well.  That is of course unless the retaliation came after the split, but I feel it would have taken place before that.  The note I made about that may have gotten lost in translation in the wake of a misunderstanding that already took place between us.

Home World was never really relevant to the theory itself, I just brought it up because because based on what I thought was the case would prevent it from also being true in Home World.  However I had the wrong idea about Home World itself and figured they were likely dead through some sort of butterfly effect and a failure in 1999 AD.  But as you pointed out, in the beginning I was thinking in the wrong line of linearity in regards to how Home World worked.  With that not being the case, the Porre theory remains the same but it applies to both worlds.  Only their actions within Porre would change post split, which is anyone's guess and nothing but fanfiction at that point.  That is why I said the information provided to support Crono, Marle, and Lucca working with Porre had nothing incorrect about it.  There is speculation involved based on actual tid bits we see in the game, but nothing solid enough to take it beyond being a possibility.  If there was a factual definitive fate for our heros, it would have been discovered long before now.  When I make these, I am speaking about possibilities of ambiguous plot points that are left open, because without another game thats all we can really do to keep the Chrono plot discussions alive.

So Home World was more of a side note that led us to go off topic, because honestly I would have been better off not bringing it up at all as it was never intended to be used as evidence.  I am glad I did though because even though something got lost in translation at some point, I still got a lot of useful info out of it in the end.

On another note, it is a shame the Ultimania guids for Chrono Trigger DS and Chrono Cross were never officially localized.  I would have loved to add them to my collection and read through them myself.  I have the official SNES guide and the Chrono Cross guide from Brady Games.  But man I wish I could add the Ultimanias to that list, especially since I don't think there was ever a US guide released at all for CT DS.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 08:20:32 am by Sheiken »