Author Topic: Why Crono, Marle, and Lucca MUST be alive after the events of Chrono Cross.  (Read 176 times)

Sheiken

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There has been much speculation regarding the fates of Crono, Lucca, and Marle at the time of Chrono Cross.  Some believe them to be dead due to the ghost children and the fall of Guardia.  Some believe them to be alive due to Lucca's letter, and others see those two things as contradiction and become indecisive on the matter.  However, when all of the dots are connected the answer is really quite clear.

First off, let me say that they are both alive AND dead in CC.  First lets look at the ghost children.  They appear in the Dead Sea, Opassa Beach, and Terra Tower.  In the Dead Sea, they are angry with Serge.  They blame him for the future they prevented coming back in Home World.  Many find this odd and wonder how Serge surviving could make that happen, but we will come back to that.  Second we have Opassa Beach, where they appear to reveal some last minute plot twists and tie up loose ends before the final battle.  Now the important thing to note here is that both of these take place in Home World, where the future is destined to be destroyed again.  Terra Tower is in Another World, but you only encounter them in a small pocket dimension created by Belthesar and not Another World itself.  This small pocket dimension exists in between both realities and the ghost children were pulled in temporarily, same as you.  Upon exiting, the entrance is gone and you cannot return to it.

So what all of this tells me, is that they are dead in Home World, but when did they die?  The answer is quite obvious actually.  They died in 1999 AD during their final battle with Lavos.  Home World splits when Serge is saved by Kid and many things are different from that point forward.  CC takes place in 1020 AD, long before the Day of Lavos...so the Final Battle is now eligible for an alteration, which all of a sudden makes the Dead Sea and Serge being blamed a lot more believable.  Crono and gang do not fight Lavos in 1999 AD until after they defeat Dalton on the Black Bird, which would still motivate him to militarize Porre and attack Guardia.  He would have no way of knowing Crono already failed here.  If Lucca had died against Lavos, she would have never taken in Kid either.  This explains Kid's absence in Home World as well.

Now lets look at the letter from Lucca, which implies they are alive.  This letter is given to Kid in Another World, which is the main timeline where the events of CT played out.  This implies that Crono and Marle survived the fall of Guardia, and helped Lucca create an orphanage for war orphaned children.  This is supported by the drawings seen in Lucca's house, as if they were around to help with the kids.  What happens here is likely that they join a resistance to take down Dalton and begin rebuilding Guardia.  There are a few factors that support this.

The fact that Porre wants the Frozen Flame implies that they need it for some reason.  It does not confirm that Guardia is rebuilding, but it does show that resistance is being met somewhere.

In the general Kid ending, she refers to Guardia being her first target for world domination, then they would attack Porre.  This implies that Guardia does exist at some capacity, but is weaker than Porre.  Pick off the weaker nation first and attack the big dog second.

Radius says Guardia was once peaceful, which can be taken two ways.  It was either destroyed completely, or they are at war.  While it does not confirm that Guardia is still around, it does not confirm its absence either.

And now for the BIGGEST piece of evidence that not only was there a resistance, but Dalton was defeated.  Guardia and Truce exist in 1999 AD, even after Dalton loses on the Blackbird.  Thats right, the evidence is in CT itself.  If you lose in the final battle (before or after Dalton), you see Lavos ravage the world.  Not only is Truce (part of Guardia), Porre, and other nations mentioned in the destruction, but there is another dome that sits just above where Lavos emerges...right where Guardia Castle would be.  This implies that somehow, after the fall of Guardia where the Castle was taken and Truce is burned to the ground, Guardia was able to rebuild itself as a nation.  And in order for that to happen, Princess Nadia herself would have to at least survive the initial attack.  If she survived, it is likely Crono did as well.  This is again backed up by my other points regarding Lucca's letter and the absence of the ghosts in Another World.

What seems most likely is that Crono and Marle eventually defeat Dalton and rebuild Guardia.  With Dalton removed, Porre could have been more diplomatic with his replacement and even helped Guardia rebuild in the name of peace.  Crono's enemy was not Porre after all, but Dalton himself.  This is how both Porre AND Guardia are present during the Day of Lavos.

Lucca being alive at the end of CC is a completely different, and much simpler matter to explain.  The Chrono Cross merged realities and removed Chronopolis from the equation.  This means that there is no FATE, which means there is no Lynx, which also means that Lucca is never kidnapped.  This is supported also by the fact that Kid/Schala seems to live a much happier life at the end of CC.

And that is really the only thing that makes sense to me.  There were a lot of dots to connect on this one within both games, and I am quite pleased with the results.  So what do you think?  Is this how you pictured their fates to turn out in the end?  Does this theory sway you at all of not?  And if not, how do you see it playing out?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 08:08:04 pm by Sheiken »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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This theory is largely in line with what I assume the case is.

At the end of the day, as you said, we know Lucca rescued Kid in Another World and the orphanage has pictures of Crono and friends, indicating that they were still around (or at least long enough for infant Kid to meet them). Heck, we don't even know the extend of Porre's invasion in Another World versus Home World.

At the end of the day, I am a big proponent of the merged timeline theory; with the Chrono Cross, a freed Schala unified both Home and Another timelines and created a more optimal future. I would wager that this future would also bode better for Crono and friends.

I do like how your theory crafts out these variations between where Crono and company are, though (a defeat at 1999AD).

Acacia Sgt

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This is supported by the drawings seen in Lucca's house, as if they were around to help with the kids.

Personally, I'd think it's more probable the kids made the drawings based on the photograph of the group, not so much that they were there. This is also likely how they could also draw Frog, Robo, and Ayla, despite them being back in their respective times.

The fact that Porre wants the Frozen Flame implies that they need it for some reason.  It does not confirm that Guardia is rebuilding, but it does show that resistance is being met somewhere.

In the general Kid ending, she refers to Guardia being her first target for world domination, then they would attack Porre.  This implies that Guardia does exist at some capacity, but is weaker than Porre.  Pick off the weaker nation first and attack the big dog second.

Radius says Guardia was once peaceful, which can be taken two ways.  It was either destroyed completely, or they are at war.  While it does not confirm that Guardia is still around, it does not confirm its absence either.

I'm not so sure how much stock can be put on Kid's quote in the General Kid ending. Cross's endings work on a Schrödinger basis. They operate on what the game has revealed at the time, even if the game later contradicts it. Like in the "Demihumans take over El Nido" ending. The Dragon God is shown to act very unlike what the game later reveals about it, but at the time the ending can be triggered, we don't know that yet (or not supposed to know, since the endings are NG+), so the Dragon God behaves differently for the ending.

This is important since that ending is the only time the Kingdom of Guardia is mentioned. In the game itself Guardia is only spoken as Guardia. For all we know, Guardia could refer to the region of northern Zenan. Truce is just a city name, after all. It's not unlike saying Great Britain to refer to the island, and not the country of The Kingdom of Great Britain (and Northern Ireland).

And now for the BIGGEST piece of evidence that not only was there a resistance, but Dalton was defeated.  Guardia and Truce exist in 1999 AD, even after Dalton loses on the Blackbird.  Thats right, the evidence is in CT itself.  If you lose in the final battle (before or after Dalton), you see Lavos ravage the world.  Not only is Truce (part of Guardia), Porre, and other nations mentioned in the destruction, but there is another dome that sits just above where Lavos emerges...right where Guardia Castle would be.  This implies that somehow, after the fall of Guardia where the Castle was taken and Truce is burned to the ground, Guardia was able to rebuild itself as a nation.  And in order for that to happen, Princess Nadia herself would have to at least survive the initial attack.  If she survived, it is likely Crono did as well.  This is again backed up by my other points regarding Lucca's letter and the absence of the ghosts in Another World.

What seems most likely is that Crono and Marle eventually defeat Dalton and rebuild Guardia.  With Dalton removed, Porre could have been more diplomatic with his replacement and even helped Guardia rebuild in the name of peace.  Crono's enemy was not Porre after all, but Dalton himself.  This is how both Porre AND Guardia are present during the Day of Lavos.

Truce is around, yes... but Guardia does not.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/chrono/images/7/72/Guardia_1999AD.png/revision/latest?cb=20110526223802

Lavos emerges in that desert in the southeast corner. That's not Zenan. It's the island that housed Magus's Castle, and later on Melchior's house. That dome to the north, who knows what it is, but it's definitely not Guardia Castle. It could be the Arris Dome itself, but that's only conjecture on my part. Anyway, you can see Truce dome to the northwest, but notice how where the Castle is suppose to be... there's only small domes.

Also, even if Guardia as a nation could rebuilt itself... it doesn't have to include Nadia/Marle. Kingdoms through history can change dynasts. Like how France has been in the hands of the Carolingians, the Capets, the Bourbons, the Bonapartes, and others. When Napoleon restored the monarchy, he placed himself as Emperor, instead of putting the Bourbons back on the throne.

Besides, in CT itself we kinda get the hint Marle's family stopped being rulers anyway, enduring/restored Kingdom of Guardia or not. Her descendant had become the Arris Dome Director by then. He's certainly not a prince. Even with no Fall of Guardia in 1005AD, there's the implication the Kingdom of Guardia ceased to exist anyway. The guys listing the places in the Day of Lavos don't mention Guardia either. They mention Truce, yes, but it's likely they're only mentioning the cities anyway.

Personally, as it is, only Lucca's letter holds weight in implying Crono and Marle are still alive, since Lucca refers to them in the present tense, and since it was written when Kid was already a child, long after the Fall.

I don't know if they may still be alive, but it could still be likely... just, that it's unlikely it's how you stated it.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 02:24:02 pm by Acacia Sgt »

Sheiken

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This is supported by the drawings seen in Lucca's house, as if they were around to help with the kids.

Personally, I'd think it's more probable the kids made the drawings based on the photograph of the group, not so much that they were there. This is also likely how they could also draw Frog, Robo, and Ayla, despite them being back in their respective times.

The fact that Porre wants the Frozen Flame implies that they need it for some reason.  It does not confirm that Guardia is rebuilding, but it does show that resistance is being met somewhere.

In the general Kid ending, she refers to Guardia being her first target for world domination, then they would attack Porre.  This implies that Guardia does exist at some capacity, but is weaker than Porre.  Pick off the weaker nation first and attack the big dog second.

Radius says Guardia was once peaceful, which can be taken two ways.  It was either destroyed completely, or they are at war.  While it does not confirm that Guardia is still around, it does not confirm its absence either.

I'm not so sure how much stock can be put on Kid's quote in the General Kid ending. Cross's endings work on a Schrödinger basis. They operate on what the game has revealed at the time, even if the game later contradicts it. Like in the "Demihumans take over El Nido" ending. The Dragon God is shown to act very unlike what the game later reveals about it, but at the time the ending can be triggered, we don't know that yet (or not supposed to know, since the endings are NG+), so the Dragon God behaves differently for the ending.

This is important since that ending is the only time the Kingdom of Guardia is mentioned. In the game itself Guardia is only spoken as Guardia. For all we know, Guardia could refer to the region of northern Zenan. Truce is just a city name, after all. It's not unlike saying Great Britain to refer to the island, and not the country of The Kingdom of Great Britain (and Northern Ireland).

And now for the BIGGEST piece of evidence that not only was there a resistance, but Dalton was defeated.  Guardia and Truce exist in 1999 AD, even after Dalton loses on the Blackbird.  Thats right, the evidence is in CT itself.  If you lose in the final battle (before or after Dalton), you see Lavos ravage the world.  Not only is Truce (part of Guardia), Porre, and other nations mentioned in the destruction, but there is another dome that sits just above where Lavos emerges...right where Guardia Castle would be.  This implies that somehow, after the fall of Guardia where the Castle was taken and Truce is burned to the ground, Guardia was able to rebuild itself as a nation.  And in order for that to happen, Princess Nadia herself would have to at least survive the initial attack.  If she survived, it is likely Crono did as well.  This is again backed up by my other points regarding Lucca's letter and the absence of the ghosts in Another World.

What seems most likely is that Crono and Marle eventually defeat Dalton and rebuild Guardia.  With Dalton removed, Porre could have been more diplomatic with his replacement and even helped Guardia rebuild in the name of peace.  Crono's enemy was not Porre after all, but Dalton himself.  This is how both Porre AND Guardia are present during the Day of Lavos.

Truce is around, yes... but Guardia does not.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/chrono/images/7/72/Guardia_1999AD.png/revision/latest?cb=20110526223802

Lavos emerges in that desert in the southeast corner. That's not Zenan. It's the island that housed Magus's Castle, and later on Melchior's house. That dome to the north, who knows what it is, but it's definitely not Guardia Castle. It could be the Arris Dome itself, but that's only conjecture on my part. Anyway, you can see Truce dome to the northwest, but notice how where the Castle is suppose to be... there's only small domes.

Also, even if Guardia as a nation could rebuilt itself... it doesn't have to include Nadia/Marle. Kingdoms through history can change dynasts. Like how France has been in the hands of the Carolingians, the Capets, the Bourbons, the Bonapartes, and others. When Napoleon restored the monarchy, he placed himself as Emperor, instead of putting the Bourbons back on the throne.

Besides, in CT itself we kinda get the hint Marle's family stopped being rulers anyway, enduring/restored Kingdom of Guardia or not. Her descendant had become the Arris Dome Director by then. He's certainly not a prince. Even with no Fall of Guardia in 1005AD, there's the implication the Kingdom of Guardia ceased to exist anyway. The guys listing the places in the Day of Lavos don't mention Guardia either. They mention Truce, yes, but it's likely they're only mentioning the cities anyway.

Personally, as it is, only Lucca's letter holds weight in implying Crono and Marle are still alive, since Lucca refers to them in the present tense, and since it was written when Kid was already a child, long after the Fall.

I don't know if they may still be alive, but it could still be likely... just, that it's unlikely it's how you stated it.

It is possible that the drawings were done based on a photograph, and that is the only way to have had Frog, Ayla, and Robo there since time travel was no longer an option.  This does not confirm their death in any way, but it does debunk it as evidence that they are alive.

Fair enough point on the plus endings, I try to take them with a grain of salt most of the time myself.  However when Radius mentions Guardia, that point still stands to be taken two ways.  Either Guardia is gone, or the region itself could house the resistance if it is only referring to the area.  This would explain how it would no longer be peaceful.  But again, dual meaning here.

Ah good catch on Lavos position, I had that wrong.  I still see Truce being around as being supporting evidence however, even if it does no outright confirm it.  Truce was burned to the ground, and I find it unlikely to be rebuilt with the same name without Dalton being taken out and the Kingdom restored.  It is however possible, I just find it unlikely.

So yes, I suppose the only concrete evidence is still Lucca's letter.  However that still makes the score 1 for Crono being alive in another world, and 0 for him being dead as there is NOTHING that suggests Crono and Marle did not make it.  I still stand by my theory for the Ghost children being the spirits of Crono, Marle, and Lucca from Home World after failing in 1999 AD however.  With that taken into consideration, as well as the ghosts absence in Another World, I find that to suggest that Crono being alive or dead is similar to Serge, but in reverse.  Crono is alive in Another World (as supported by the letter) and dead in Home World (supported by ghosts).

In the end, the conclusion of my theory is still the same.  However some of my initial logic was flawed.  Thank you for the clarification.

On a side note, the only decendent of Marle we have seen from the future is from a time where none of the nations exist anymore.  The change in his location does not signify that his bloodline was still not ruling Guardia before the Day of Lavos.  At that point, people likely scattered and just ended up wherever over the course of 301 years.  I don't see how that could possibly imply that the lineage ruling the kingdom could have changed.  His existence does however suggest that Marle had a child.  If she were to fall in 1005 AD and had given birth before the fall, it is more believable that would have been the reason for Crono and Marle to flee the failing defense of the castle.  So regardless of who ruled the region, either their child was taken away to safety by someone else or they escaped with their child.  Had they not had a child yet, at the very least Marle would need to survive.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 08:05:48 pm by Sheiken »