Author Topic: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?  (Read 16763 times)

Beach Bum

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How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« on: February 20, 2020, 02:08:40 pm »
Never really thought about that, but why would it disable the Prometheus circuit? The Prometheus circuit was built so that once Serge made contact with the Frozen Flame, the circuit would activate and block access from anyone who's not Serge. If that's true, then why would simply killing Serge disable it? We're talking about technology, its programming wouldn't magically change even if it could somehow sense that Serge had died.

Or are we to assume that Wazuki drowned Serge and then dragged his 7 year old corpse back to Chronopolis to unlock the Flame?

Razig

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2020, 05:11:05 pm »
I always figured the circuit could indeed remotely detect the Arbiter's status somehow, perhaps by monitoring changes in the Frozen Flame. FATE logically (but incorrectly) assumed that the lock would reset if the Arbiter were to die, because otherwise the Flame would be sealed away forever, and what purpose would that serve? But that turned out to be precisely the case after all, despite not making much sense at the time.

Still... Murdering a seven-year-old child? FATE couldn't simply kidnap him, make him open the door and delete the Prometheus circuit, then send him home brainwashed into thinking he'd been out getting ice cream? But I guess we wouldn't have a game that way.

What I find curious is that FATE couldn't simply cut through the door or wall of the Flame's chamber. Maybe there was another hidden protocol that prevented it from causing property damage to Chronopolis?

Beach Bum

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2020, 06:28:45 pm »
Dunno about that, I feel like it would still be possible to utilize the Frozen Flame if a new arbiter came in contact with it. The only thing that would happen is, all access to it would be restricted because of the Prometheus circuit. The Flame itself should be able to detect if its arbiter dies; the Prometheus circuit, seems less likely.

I feel like the restrictions on the Frozen Flame are not just concerning the door to the room it's in. There's like 100 mechanical thingies poking at the Flame, which I assume is how they control and operate it. Those are probably disabled until the Arbiter is verified.


Sheiken

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 05:19:34 am »
Killing Serge did not break the seal on the Frozen Flame.  It was ASSUMED that killing Serge would give FATE access again, but ended up being false.  This is also why Lucca needed to be kidnapped, so FATE could use her to break the seal.  This also did not pan out.  Later FATE would decide that Serge would eventually travel between Dimensions, and FATE would just steal his identity through Lynx instead.

I am about to do Chronopolis on New Gane Plus today, I will put a fresh pair of eyes on the dialogue and see if I notice anything outside of that.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 05:21:32 am by Sheiken »

Beach Bum

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 06:31:01 am »
Killing Serge did not break the seal on the Frozen Flame.  It was ASSUMED that killing Serge would give FATE access again, but ended up being false.  This is also why Lucca needed to be kidnapped, so FATE could use her to break the seal.  This also did not pan out.  Later FATE would decide that Serge would eventually travel between Dimensions, and FATE would just steal his identity through Lynx instead.

I am about to do Chronopolis on New Gane Plus today, I will put a fresh pair of eyes on the dialogue and see if I notice anything outside of that.

I thought it failed because Kid went back in time and saved Serge, who retained his status as arbiter across dimensions. If she hadn't done that, would it have worked? Another World was the original timeline, did it have a future where FATE regained access to the Flame by killing Serge and thus kidnapping Lucca wasn't necessary?

Actually... There's something off about all this... That being Kid. The Kid we encounter from the game is from Another World, the main timeline. In 1020 AD, she travels through time and dimensions to save Serge in Home World. But before she does that, in the main timeline, Wazuki successfully drowns Serge in 1010 AD, presumably unlocking access to the Flame, and so there was no need to go kidnap Lucca. And that means no burned down orphanage, no dead Lucca, no traumatized Kid. So how come Kid is the person she is even before she saves Serge?

This is confusing.

Razig

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2020, 04:38:00 pm »
Quote from: Ghost Crono
   Ten years ago, it was Lynx
   who tried to kill you at
   this beach.
   After Prometheus broke the link
   between FATE and the Flame,
   FATE tried to eliminate any
   obstacle that stood in its way!
   In the meantime, the six
   Dragons had sent Harle
   forth to try and gain
   possession of the Flame.
   Harle made contact with
   FATE's biological incarnation,
   Lynx, and tricked him into
   temporarily joining forces.
   The elimination of the
   Prometheus circuit's lock
   on the Frozen Flame was
   everyone's top priority!

   Lynx and Harle abducted
   Lucca, who alone could
   release the Prometheus lock
   that guarded the Flame...
   But the whole attempt only
   ended in failure.
   Then, they just waited for
   you to appear instead!
   You see, FATE calculated that
   you would one day cross
   the dimensions and try to
   make contact with the Flame.

Quote from: Ghost Lucca
   Of course, Kid was not to
   know anything about this
   whole plan until later,
   when all this will finish.
   Further in the future, Kid
   is meant to travel back ten
   years in time from now to
   save Serge from drowning.
   And then, Kid was also
   meant to call Serge into the
   other world as he spoke with
   Leena here on Opassa Beach!

The sequence of events seems to be:
  • 1006 — Serge makes contact with the Frozen Flame, becomes Arbiter. FATE loses access to the Flame.
  • 1010 — Lynx attempts to drown Serge. Kid's intervention creates dimensional split. Prometheus circuit remains active.
  • 101? — Lynx and Harle abduct Lucca, but fail to deactivate the Prometheus circuit. FATE waits for Serge to cross the dimensions.
  • 1020 — Playable events of the game.
  • Unknown point in the future — Kid travels back in time to rescue Serge.

It's possible that Lynx's murder of Serge in the unaltered timeline (before Kid's intervention) released the Prometheus circuit's lock as FATE expected. Satisfied with this outcome, FATE would have had no reason to kidnap Lucca. Kid, in turn, would have had no personal vendetta against Lynx, but played her part in the plan regardless, probably at Lucca's suggestion.

However, that timeline's events (whatever they were) were overwritten due to Kid's intervention creating the dimensional split, and thus we have the weird Schrödinger's cat situation with Serge apparently remaining the Arbiter even in the world where he died. So without knowing how the unaltered timeline played out, it might be impossible to say whether killing Serge would have actually accomplished anything.

Sheiken

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2020, 05:44:55 pm »
Quote from: Ghost Crono
   Ten years ago, it was Lynx
   who tried to kill you at
   this beach.
   After Prometheus broke the link
   between FATE and the Flame,
   FATE tried to eliminate any
   obstacle that stood in its way!
   In the meantime, the six
   Dragons had sent Harle
   forth to try and gain
   possession of the Flame.
   Harle made contact with
   FATE's biological incarnation,
   Lynx, and tricked him into
   temporarily joining forces.
   The elimination of the
   Prometheus circuit's lock
   on the Frozen Flame was
   everyone's top priority!

   Lynx and Harle abducted
   Lucca, who alone could
   release the Prometheus lock
   that guarded the Flame...
   But the whole attempt only
   ended in failure.
   Then, they just waited for
   you to appear instead!
   You see, FATE calculated that
   you would one day cross
   the dimensions and try to
   make contact with the Flame.

Quote from: Ghost Lucca
   Of course, Kid was not to
   know anything about this
   whole plan until later,
   when all this will finish.
   Further in the future, Kid
   is meant to travel back ten
   years in time from now to
   save Serge from drowning.
   And then, Kid was also
   meant to call Serge into the
   other world as he spoke with
   Leena here on Opassa Beach!

The sequence of events seems to be:
  • 1006 — Serge makes contact with the Frozen Flame, becomes Arbiter. FATE loses access to the Flame.
  • 1010 — Lynx attempts to drown Serge. Kid's intervention creates dimensional split. Prometheus circuit remains active.
  • 101? — Lynx and Harle abduct Lucca, but fail to deactivate the Prometheus circuit. FATE waits for Serge to cross the dimensions.
  • 1020 — Playable events of the game.
  • Unknown point in the future — Kid travels back in time to rescue Serge.

It's possible that Lynx's murder of Serge in the unaltered timeline (before Kid's intervention) released the Prometheus circuit's lock as FATE expected. Satisfied with this outcome, FATE would have had no reason to kidnap Lucca. Kid, in turn, would have had no personal vendetta against Lynx, but played her part in the plan regardless, probably at Lucca's suggestion.

However, that timeline's events (whatever they were) were overwritten due to Kid's intervention creating the dimensional split, and thus we have the weird Schrödinger's cat situation with Serge apparently remaining the Arbiter even in the world where he died. So without knowing how the unaltered timeline played out, it might be impossible to say whether killing Serge would have actually accomplished anything.

This makes the most sense to me as well.  I was trying to piece together another reply, but there was always something that would have been off in every other scenario.  Kid saving Serge and ruining FATEs plan with a Dimensional split is the only logical explanation for how he remained the Arbiter after death.

The problem with it not working in the unaltered timeline is the fact that FATE would not have been able to wait for Serge to cross dimensions, because the split had not happened yet.  Kid being completely unaware until she saves Serge is also only logical if Lucca was never kidnapped, as her vendetta against Lynx would have surely revealed SOMETHING otherwise seeing how Lynx himself is FATE incarnate.

So I agree, unless another game is released and reveals the events in the unaltered timeline, the only logical conclusion is that killing Serge DID work, and Kid undid that by saving Serge and splitting the Timeline.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 05:47:57 pm by Sheiken »

Beach Bum

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2020, 06:35:31 pm »
Quote from: Ghost Crono
   Ten years ago, it was Lynx
   who tried to kill you at
   this beach.
   After Prometheus broke the link
   between FATE and the Flame,
   FATE tried to eliminate any
   obstacle that stood in its way!
   In the meantime, the six
   Dragons had sent Harle
   forth to try and gain
   possession of the Flame.
   Harle made contact with
   FATE's biological incarnation,
   Lynx, and tricked him into
   temporarily joining forces.
   The elimination of the
   Prometheus circuit's lock
   on the Frozen Flame was
   everyone's top priority!

   Lynx and Harle abducted
   Lucca, who alone could
   release the Prometheus lock
   that guarded the Flame...
   But the whole attempt only
   ended in failure.
   Then, they just waited for
   you to appear instead!
   You see, FATE calculated that
   you would one day cross
   the dimensions and try to
   make contact with the Flame.

Quote from: Ghost Lucca
   Of course, Kid was not to
   know anything about this
   whole plan until later,
   when all this will finish.
   Further in the future, Kid
   is meant to travel back ten
   years in time from now to
   save Serge from drowning.
   And then, Kid was also
   meant to call Serge into the
   other world as he spoke with
   Leena here on Opassa Beach!

The sequence of events seems to be:
  • 1006 — Serge makes contact with the Frozen Flame, becomes Arbiter. FATE loses access to the Flame.
  • 1010 — Lynx attempts to drown Serge. Kid's intervention creates dimensional split. Prometheus circuit remains active.
  • 101? — Lynx and Harle abduct Lucca, but fail to deactivate the Prometheus circuit. FATE waits for Serge to cross the dimensions.
  • 1020 — Playable events of the game.
  • Unknown point in the future — Kid travels back in time to rescue Serge.

It's possible that Lynx's murder of Serge in the unaltered timeline (before Kid's intervention) released the Prometheus circuit's lock as FATE expected. Satisfied with this outcome, FATE would have had no reason to kidnap Lucca. Kid, in turn, would have had no personal vendetta against Lynx, but played her part in the plan regardless, probably at Lucca's suggestion.

However, that timeline's events (whatever they were) were overwritten due to Kid's intervention creating the dimensional split, and thus we have the weird Schrödinger's cat situation with Serge apparently remaining the Arbiter even in the world where he died. So without knowing how the unaltered timeline played out, it might be impossible to say whether killing Serge would have actually accomplished anything.

The only problem I see with that is one of the Compendium's staple theories, Time Traveler's Immunity. If Kid traveled 10 years back in time, from that point she would be protected from any changes in the timeline, including her own.

Sheiken

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2020, 07:16:47 pm »
Quote from: Ghost Crono
   Ten years ago, it was Lynx
   who tried to kill you at
   this beach.
   After Prometheus broke the link
   between FATE and the Flame,
   FATE tried to eliminate any
   obstacle that stood in its way!
   In the meantime, the six
   Dragons had sent Harle
   forth to try and gain
   possession of the Flame.
   Harle made contact with
   FATE's biological incarnation,
   Lynx, and tricked him into
   temporarily joining forces.
   The elimination of the
   Prometheus circuit's lock
   on the Frozen Flame was
   everyone's top priority!

   Lynx and Harle abducted
   Lucca, who alone could
   release the Prometheus lock
   that guarded the Flame...
   But the whole attempt only
   ended in failure.
   Then, they just waited for
   you to appear instead!
   You see, FATE calculated that
   you would one day cross
   the dimensions and try to
   make contact with the Flame.

Quote from: Ghost Lucca
   Of course, Kid was not to
   know anything about this
   whole plan until later,
   when all this will finish.
   Further in the future, Kid
   is meant to travel back ten
   years in time from now to
   save Serge from drowning.
   And then, Kid was also
   meant to call Serge into the
   other world as he spoke with
   Leena here on Opassa Beach!

The sequence of events seems to be:
  • 1006 — Serge makes contact with the Frozen Flame, becomes Arbiter. FATE loses access to the Flame.
  • 1010 — Lynx attempts to drown Serge. Kid's intervention creates dimensional split. Prometheus circuit remains active.
  • 101? — Lynx and Harle abduct Lucca, but fail to deactivate the Prometheus circuit. FATE waits for Serge to cross the dimensions.
  • 1020 — Playable events of the game.
  • Unknown point in the future — Kid travels back in time to rescue Serge.

It's possible that Lynx's murder of Serge in the unaltered timeline (before Kid's intervention) released the Prometheus circuit's lock as FATE expected. Satisfied with this outcome, FATE would have had no reason to kidnap Lucca. Kid, in turn, would have had no personal vendetta against Lynx, but played her part in the plan regardless, probably at Lucca's suggestion.

However, that timeline's events (whatever they were) were overwritten due to Kid's intervention creating the dimensional split, and thus we have the weird Schrödinger's cat situation with Serge apparently remaining the Arbiter even in the world where he died. So without knowing how the unaltered timeline played out, it might be impossible to say whether killing Serge would have actually accomplished anything.

The only problem I see with that is one of the Compendium's staple theories, Time Traveler's Immunity. If Kid traveled 10 years back in time, from that point she would be protected from any changes in the timeline, including her own.

By that theory, the version of Kid we see would still exist up until the point of when she goes back in time.  As we know however, the Chrono Cross merges her with Schala before that happens (which is another force entirely, so would likely not be affected by time travel).

Razig

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2020, 08:19:38 pm »
The only problem I see with that is one of the Compendium's staple theories, Time Traveler's Immunity. If Kid traveled 10 years back in time, from that point she would be protected from any changes in the timeline, including her own.
The Kid we interact with in the game is pre-time travel Kid. She doesn't know about all this stuff until the infodump at Opassa Beach.

My problem with the whole thing is predestination, which Chrono Trigger was definitely against. Kid is going to save Serge someday, so Serge is saved. But the future doesn't change because you're going to do something, it only changes when you put the effort in. Otherwise CT would have ended with Crono watching the recording of the Day of Lavos; now that he knows about Lavos, he's going to stop it, so Lavos is stopped.

The fact that we know Kid comes back from the future, means there is a future for her to come back from, which means the Time Devourer failed to destroy all space-time. So our victory against it is foreordained and we're just going through the motions. It robs the story of some of its impact. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I really wish the writers had come up with some other explanation for Serge's survival.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2020, 09:14:56 pm »
The fact that we know Kid comes back from the future, means there is a future for her to come back from, which means the Time Devourer failed to destroy all space-time. So our victory against it is foreordained and we're just going through the motions. It robs the story of some of its impact. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I really wish the writers had come up with some other explanation for Serge's survival.

Not quite. Since the Time Devourer doesn't exist in the timeline itself, then Kid coming from a future point from the general events of Cross doesn't contradict, since from the Time Devourer's own reference time, it can still be before it has finished its own preparations to devour space-time.

Beach Bum

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2020, 10:52:59 pm »
The only problem I see with that is one of the Compendium's staple theories, Time Traveler's Immunity. If Kid traveled 10 years back in time, from that point she would be protected from any changes in the timeline, including her own.
The Kid we interact with in the game is pre-time travel Kid. She doesn't know about all this stuff until the infodump at Opassa Beach.

My problem with the whole thing is predestination, which Chrono Trigger was definitely against. Kid is going to save Serge someday, so Serge is saved. But the future doesn't change because you're going to do something, it only changes when you put the effort in. Otherwise CT would have ended with Crono watching the recording of the Day of Lavos; now that he knows about Lavos, he's going to stop it, so Lavos is stopped.

The fact that we know Kid comes back from the future, means there is a future for her to come back from, which means the Time Devourer failed to destroy all space-time. So our victory against it is foreordained and we're just going through the motions. It robs the story of some of its impact. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I really wish the writers had come up with some other explanation for Serge's survival.

I mean, it's never specified when the TD reaches maturity and what exactly happens then. With Lavos there was a clear date on the apocalypse, it always happened in 1999 AD. It's said that the TD will devour all spacetime, which I take as all time and space everywhere ceases to exist. So if we assume the TD being succesful in doing so is the default, doesn't that mean that all spacetime should cease to exist the moment he starts bonding with Schala? But that's also predestination.

The same thing can be extended to Chrono Trigger. Lavos arrives on Earth, so the world is destroyed. 

Sheiken

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2020, 08:00:32 am »
The only problem I see with that is one of the Compendium's staple theories, Time Traveler's Immunity. If Kid traveled 10 years back in time, from that point she would be protected from any changes in the timeline, including her own.
The Kid we interact with in the game is pre-time travel Kid. She doesn't know about all this stuff until the infodump at Opassa Beach.

My problem with the whole thing is predestination, which Chrono Trigger was definitely against. Kid is going to save Serge someday, so Serge is saved. But the future doesn't change because you're going to do something, it only changes when you put the effort in. Otherwise CT would have ended with Crono watching the recording of the Day of Lavos; now that he knows about Lavos, he's going to stop it, so Lavos is stopped.

The fact that we know Kid comes back from the future, means there is a future for her to come back from, which means the Time Devourer failed to destroy all space-time. So our victory against it is foreordained and we're just going through the motions. It robs the story of some of its impact. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I really wish the writers had come up with some other explanation for Serge's survival.

I mean, it's never specified when the TD reaches maturity and what exactly happens then. With Lavos there was a clear date on the apocalypse, it always happened in 1999 AD. It's said that the TD will devour all spacetime, which I take as all time and space everywhere ceases to exist. So if we assume the TD being succesful in doing so is the default, doesn't that mean that all spacetime should cease to exist the moment he starts bonding with Schala? But that's also predestination.

The same thing can be extended to Chrono Trigger. Lavos arrives on Earth, so the world is destroyed.

Time flows in a linear fashion in Chrono Trigger and Cross.  You can go forward or backward, but events have to play out before they happen.  There is a predestination in place but because time flows the way it does, that predestination can be altered if someone goes back in time and changes the events that lead to it.  The argument that Kid would need a future to return to after saving Serge does not make much sense to me for example, because Chronopolis Time Crash happened in 2400 AD.  No matter the outcome, she always had a future to return to.

The fact that we do not know exactly when the TD matures and devours everything does not matter due to this.  Everything before that time would still happen in a linear fashion.  Lets say, after Lavos is defeated, Crono and gang jump on the epoch and travel to...3000 AD and TD matures in 2900 AD.  They would arrive in a void of nothingness.  No dimensions, no "End of Time" platform...just...blank.

But if they went back in time, reality would still exist during the time they went back to.  I know Bathasar SAYS all of spcae time, but it is not that simple.  The entire premise would become a mess if it was not linear.  There would have been no deleted future, as Crono would have been predestined to kill Lavos...which means that from the moment Lavos lands on earth, the TD would have already been created, which means that had Serge failed, both games would have never happened.  Then there is the bad ending, which was stated in Ultimania that if you kill TD without the Chrono Cross, you merge with it and all of spacetime in consumed.  This is represented by there ne NO ending at all.  Everything still happens up to that point though.

So the only way all of this really works, is that time flows in a linear fashion.  This is seen in both games, and all evidence points to it.  Until a certain event happens, there is a destination for said event.  If someone alters time and changes that destination, that old destination is erased and gets sent into the DBT.  If you travel to the future before the destination is changed, you will see it play out as intended.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 08:34:44 am by Sheiken »

Beach Bum

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2020, 01:55:38 pm »
I guess that makes sense.

By the way, is the thing in Ultimania about Serge fusing with the TD if he kills it the normal way confirmed to be canon? I mean if you kill it the normal way, it seems to just completely die off, including Schala. I always thought that was the point. Belthasar's plan wasn't about saving the world from the TD. It was about freeing Schala, which required very specific parameters and the Chrono Cross.

What actually confuses me a little is why the TD seems to die off once Schala is freed. It existed as a remnant of Lavos before its fusion with Schala, so I'd assume even without Schala it would live on as a shell of Lavos. Maybe it needed to bond with Schala in order to survive, and couldn't sustain its life without her?

Sheiken

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Re: How did FATE killing Serge disable the Prometheus circuit?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2020, 02:24:24 pm »
I guess that makes sense.

By the way, is the thing in Ultimania about Serge fusing with the TD if he kills it the normal way confirmed to be canon? I mean if you kill it the normal way, it seems to just completely die off, including Schala. I always thought that was the point. Belthasar's plan wasn't about saving the world from the TD. It was about freeing Schala, which required very specific parameters and the Chrono Cross.

What actually confuses me a little is why the TD seems to die off once Schala is freed. It existed as a remnant of Lavos before its fusion with Schala, so I'd assume even without Schala it would live on as a shell of Lavos. Maybe it needed to bond with Schala in order to survive, and couldn't sustain its life without her?

Schala was the living vessel that Lavos merged with.  Remember Lavos in the DBT was already dead, so separating him from his living vessel (Schala) would result in him not being able to sustain himself, and fade away into nothingness.

The Ultimania Guide is really all we have to go on, and as long as it does not interfere with Kato or in-game info, there is no reason not to see it as canon.  There is even evidence presented in Chrono Cross itself that killing the TD by force will bring about the end.  Refer to this quote by the Crioshpinx when killed by force...

"Thy way of life intrigues me...
To conquer all obstacles by brawn,
rather than by brain.
.....................
But I warn ye...
Woes shall surely befall,
Ones such as thee...."

This lines up perfectly with that the Ultimania Guide claims.  Given that the Criosphinx is basically telling you how to use the Chrono Cross, it makes sense that by just muscling your way against him would cause him to warn you that all will be lost if you do not change your way of thinking.

So while not everything in Ultimania can be taken as Canon at face value if it contradicts anything in game or what Kato says personally, this actually has some in-game evidence to back it up.  It also contradicts nothing.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 02:26:37 pm by Sheiken »