Author Topic: Extra endings and their relevance to canon...  (Read 921 times)

Sheiken

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Extra endings and their relevance to canon...
« on: February 10, 2020, 02:27:11 pm »
So a lot of references seem to be getting made to the extra endings to answer questions not answered in the main game, especially with Chrono Cross.  A perfect example of this would be how Norris gives Kid the Hydra Humor.  But can this really be what TRULY happens in canon, if Serge does not do it himself?

I ask this, because there are a lot of contradictions found in these endings.  If they are non canon and there for fun (which I believe they are), then this is fine.  However if you want to accept some of it as canon, then they all must be canon.  There is no in between, as there would be nothing to distinguish the difference between what is and isn't canon.  One can only make the claim that some of it can be "ambiguous canon", which means that it is not confirmed to be canon, but does not contradict CONFIRMED canon.

Here are some of the contradictions to established canon that I am talking about.  General Kid my first example.  Here we see Kid take over Viper Manor and become the new leader of the Dragoons.  There are a few problems here, but lets pretend that the Dragoons would follow her just because she murdered Viper (they wouldn't), and lets pretend Kid's personality would allow her to seek world dominance (it wouldn't).  There is one contradiction here that goes far beyond all of that.  Kid walks out of Vipers Office holding the "Frozen Flame" and supposedly uses the "Frozen Flame" to conquer all nations.  The narration at the end even states that the "Frozen Flame" is by her side.  However canon would signify that Kid did NOT have the Frozen Flame at all, because she was holding the Dragon Tear that was in Viper's office instead.  That right there should be proof enough to throw the validation of these endings out the window.

Another example is how just downright NASTY Lisa is to any female in one of the endings.  In the main game, she seems rather sweet.  But when Serge gets a job there, she goes for the throat when it came to Leena walking in (despite being close friends).  Furthermore if Kid comes in, she lashes out at her as well for no reason at all.  This is a bit minor compared to my previous example, but it is still a contradiction none the less.

So with these contradictions to the main canon being present, one must call certain ambiguous material in for question as well.  For example, did Norris REALLY give Kid the cure?  Or could it have been Janus watching over her (assuming that he is not Guile after he wipes his memory, but that is another topic)?  Once again, there is no way to know for certain.  All we have is Norris in a non canon ending as a potential suggestion, which in of itself has yet another contradiction.  To get this ending, Kid has already broken into Viper Manor and threatened Riddel.  Would she truly be able to just walk in there undisguised and land a job in the kitchen?

Now one thing I want to make clear, this does not apply to the Dream Devourer ending in CT, which is indeed canon.  There are a few things that distinguish this from the others, but the main thing to make note of is that this is NOT a New Game Plus ending.  It is a glimps of a future event involving Magus after Lavos is defeated, and explains how Porre became power hungry and militarized through the influence of Dalton.  While you have to beat the game to unlock it, you do it within your main save file.  That even makes sense in a way, because until you kill Lavos the Dream Devourer would not exist.  So it makes sense that some Dimensional Vortex would open right before you face him when reloading the file, as beating the game the first time was what sent Lavos to the Darkness Beyond Time to begin with.  The entire nature of this content is different and was made to draw a tighter connection to Cross.

So what do you think? Can we truly take anything from New Game Plus endings as canon, or are they just there for fun with a few ambiguous details that do not contradict the actual canon?

I gave my thoughts, lets hear yours!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 04:28:47 pm by Sheiken »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Extra endings and their relevance to canon...
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2020, 11:46:12 am »
Chrono Cross's endings seem to mostly operate on Schrödinger's canon. As in, only what is known up to that point in time.

So with the General Kid ending, since we don't learn it's really not the Frozen Flame until after the events, the ending treats it like it really is. Another example is the "Demi-humans take over El Nido" ending. It treats the Dragon God for what it is, despite us learning it was long absorbed by the Time Devourer. However, we only learn that after the story deadline for triggering the ending, so the ending itself treats it as being the real deal.

It's more or less the same with Trigger's endings. Except it's less Schrödinger and more "this is how things go without further meddling the timeline". The only big exception is the "Frog marries Leene" ending, regarding Marle. Trigger doesn't work with Paradoxes, so Marle shouldn't have been affected. However, because at that point in the game we were made to think it does (remember, Lucca theorizing the Grandfather Paradox was at play means just that: she was theorizing; that doesn't mean she's right; and the rest of the game proves she was indeed wrong), therefore, it happens.

Now, overall, it's kinda moot when you think about it, since the endings in both games can only be accessed on NG+ (well, for Trigger you'd have to level grind like mad, which means might as well use NG+ anyway), when we already know about those things. Regardless, I think we can't really dismiss them. Since Cross opens up the whole multiverse thing, we can just assume those endings could be canon in their own dimensions, where things are different enough to make them possible.

For things like Norris's delivering the cure, I've always believed that if there is no contradiction, then just because it's out of the way, it doesn't contradict anything. So the info being revealed in an alternate ending doesn't diminish its canonical status since nothing else contradicts this info.

As for Lisa... well, to be fair, how much do we really know about her? That ending puts Lisa in a very specific situation that doesn't happen in the main game, so chances are this really is part of her personality. Just not one we'd see in the main game because the circumstances for it surfacing don't happen.

Sheiken

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Re: Extra endings and their relevance to canon...
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2020, 07:24:33 am »
That is what I mean as Ambiguous Canon, things that are not in the main game but do not interfere with established canon.  There is nothing wrong with taking it at face value as of right now, but a potential new game is not bound by it either.  For example, if Chrono Break became a thing and stated that someone else did it, it would not be a retcon as Norris doing it was only Ambiguous Canon rather than established canon.

You are right in how the endings are handled, they only take into consideration the plot up to that point.  That is why I can only view it as Ambiguous Canon unless another game proves otherwise.  If the entire plot was taken into consideration, it would be different.  But as it stands now, the things that are Ambiguous Canon appear right alongside the things that are blatant contradictions.  That is why I would not say things like Norris giving Kid the cure is what would really happen in a legit playthrough of the main game.  Since it is Ambiguous however, I cannot say he did not do it either at this time.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Extra endings and their relevance to canon...
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2020, 12:05:35 pm »
Personally, I don't make that distinction. Canon is canon, it doesn't matter how it's obtained. More so when it's detached, a detail not tied to the overall of the situation it's found in.

Razig

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Re: Extra endings and their relevance to canon...
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2020, 01:01:00 am »
I agree that the alternate endings can't be taken as canon, but where a fact given in an ending doesn't contradict anything we're told in the story proper, we can tentatively accept it as truth.

Regarding Lisa... Jealousy is a hell of a thing. It can turn otherwise nice, reasonable people into complete monsters. I agree with Acacia Sgt that this may have been part of her personality that we fortunately never got to see in the story.