Dragon Gods and the Time Devourer...

[Sheiken]

Ok so I like to think I have a good handle on the plot of Chrono Cross (played it countless times, so I should), but there has been one glaring plot hole that I cannot seem to fill.  Just what the heck does the Time Devourer that the Dragon Gods turn into and the Time Devourer in the Darkness Beyond Time have to do with one another?

In Terra Tower, Balthasar states that the Dragon God was created by the Reptites in Dinopolis.  That this Time Devourer was a biological machine that was used to control nature.  However the Time Devourer in the Darkness Beyond Time was formed from Lavos merging with Schala (which had nothing to do with the Reptites nor the Dinopolis Timeline).

So it sounds like they are two separate being with the same name, which would have been fine.  But then after the fight on top of Terra Tower, Balthasar then retcons his previous statement and says that the Dragon God is just a form that the REAL Time Devourer uses to exist in reality.  But this does not make sense to me...

Dinopolis exists in a timeline where Lavos did not come to earth, and the Reptites were able to evolve unhindered.  They evolved closer with the planet and therefore created the Bio Machine Time Devourer (Dragon God) to manipulate nature itself as needed.  I do not see them willing to use the power from Darkness Beyond Time to reach those ends, nor do I think they even could have come into contact with it in the first place.  So as far as I can see, there is no way for the two Time Devourers to be linked to one another.

Now the Darkness Beyond Time exists outside of ALL realities, so theoretically TD could make contact with any reality.  Once Lavos was killed, the TD would have been present in all time periods.  That would include the time periods before Lavos was killed.  So the only answer I can think of is that when Dinopolis got pulled into the past and across realities and waged war on Chronopolis,  the TD then corrupted the "Dragon God" to influence the world before it could awaken and consume everything.  This would be supported by the fact that the Dragon God is filled with hatred for humans and wants to wipe them out.  This hatred would be amplified by the link with the Time Devourer as well since its base emotion is sorrow and hatred.

So maybe I am missing something, or it really is a huge plothole that got overlooked.  Can anyone else shed some light on the subject?  Am I close to having it figured out, or is there another explanation that fits better?

[Beach Bum]

When encountering Belthasar in Terra Tower for the first time, he mentions this:

   The Dragon Gods were originally
   a singular plasma life-form...
   ...A living accumulation of the
   planet's energy!
   Originally it was a biological
   machine used to control the
   powers of nature in the future
   society of the Reptites.
   In order to control the natural
   energy itself, FATE divided the
   one Dragon God entity up into
   6 weaker plasma life-forms...
   Then scattered them across
   the land and sealed them away.
   Their dragon-like appearances
   are just pseudo-guises...
   ...Temporary forms they take
   so that they can appear in
   this dimension.

FATE was the one who divided the Dragon God into six separate, weaker plasma entities. Those individual entities then each assumed a dragon-like appearance so they could physically manifest in the world.

After the battle with the Dragon God concludes, Belthasar goes on to say:

   That thing...
   the '"Dragon God"'...
   is only a quasi-existence...
   ...A temporary form that
   the real Dragon God uses
   in order to appear within
   this dimension.

   The actual Dragon God
   was consumed long ago,
   in the distant past...
   Integrated by the entity
   known as Lavos in a time
   on the other side of the
   dimensional darkness.

Now that last part is confusing, and the only part that mentions Lavos in relation to the Dragon God. I take this to mean that in 12,000 BC, both Chronopolis and Dinopolis manifested in the world, war ensued, Chronopolis won and defeated the Dragon God. Perhaps at this time, the Dragon God was discarded to the Darkness Beyond Time, where Lavos was also currently residing. Thus explaining how Lavos could "integrate" the Dragon God.

The only thing this then leaves unclear is what exactly it was that FATE split up into lesser plasma life forms. Perhaps some remnant of the Dragon God that remained in the physical world. The game is a little vague about this.

[Sheiken]

It would not make sense for the Dragon God to have been sent to the Darkness Beyond Time, because that would imply that it was killed in the war.  The way it sounded was that they were unable to kill it, so FATE split it up into six weaker dragons and sealed them instead.

To be honest, I am starting to lean more towards them being unrelated and named by Balthasar himself to further drive Serge to enter the Darkness Beyond Time.  He did manipulate and orchestrate the entire plot of the game for the sole purpose of saving Schala after all.  What is another lie if it means further pushing the party towards his goal?

The only other way, like I said, is if Lavos integrated himself to the TD during the actual fight as a back up plan to exist outside of the Darkness Beyond Time before they were split and sealed.  This just seems like such a stretch to me though and lacks so much depth compared to other aspects of the plot.

You are right though, they were way to vague regarding link between the Dragon God and the real Time Devourer.  I was thinking I may have missed something, but that does not seem to be the case sadly.

[Razig]

I suspect that the Time Devourer fought atop Terra Tower should have simply been called the Dragon God, but was renamed by mistake.

As for how the lesser dragons can exist if the Dragon God was integrated into Lavos, my theory is that when the original entity was split up by FATE, its true form was somehow cast into the Darkness Beyond Time and the dragons lived on as mere vestiges. The real Dragon God was absorbed by Lavos and became part of the Time Devourer; the dragons retained sentience, but it's unclear whether they were aware of what had happened to their original form. When FATE died and the dragons were able to merge together again, the Time Devourer took control of this newly reborn body via its connection to the original. Thus why it seems to speak as Lavos when it mentions truly awakening.

That's just my personal interpretation, attempting to reconcile the seeming contradiction.

[Sheiken]

That explanation does make sense, but there is still a slight problem I have...motive.

The TD was set to wipe out all of existence upon awakening, so there was no real reason for it to attempt to exist outside of the Darkness Beyond Time till that day.  The entire premise of the notion makes zero sense to me.

Furthermore the motives of the Dragon God itself differs from the TD.  The Dragon God seemed only concerned with wiping out humanity for destroying the planet, while the TD want to destroy EVERYTHING.  This is another reason why I have a hard time accepting the fact that they are truly the same being.

I agree, they should have just left the Dragon God as the Dragon God.  Then once that threat was stopped, Balthasar could then reveal his entire plan and how he orchestrated everything to give Serge the ability to free Schala with the Chrono Cross.  Following that he would give Serge the Time Egg to execute the final phase of his plan.

[NimmerStill]

Now that last part is confusing, and the only part that mentions Lavos in relation to the Dragon God. I take this to mean that in 12,000 BC, both Chronopolis and Dinopolis manifested in the world, war ensued, Chronopolis won and defeated the Dragon God. Perhaps at this time, the Dragon God was discarded to the Darkness Beyond Time, where Lavos was also currently residing. Thus explaining how Lavos could "integrate" the Dragon God.

The only thing this then leaves unclear is what exactly it was that FATE split up into lesser plasma life forms. Perhaps some remnant of the Dragon God that remained in the physical world. The game is a little vague about this.

If we take the 12,000 BC date for the Time Crash seriously, then perhaps it was an effect of the Ocean Palace Incident that the Dragon God got sucked into the DBT. Perhaps the timing was such, somehow, that just as Schala was being absorbed into the DBT, so was the Dragon God for some reason, and there that trio of Schala, the Dragon God, and Lavos merged to form the Time Devourer.

But as everyone has said, this is very unclear and incompletely explained. Why was it those two specifically that were absorbed into the DBT? Also, subsequent discussion of the Time Devourer tends to describe it as merely a merger of Lavos and Schala; the Dragon God's membership in this conglomerate doesn't seem to be mentioned again, despite the fact that Belthasar said that the Dragon God was "integrated by the entity known as Lavos", which really seems to mean that the Dragon God should have become at least as integral a part of the Time Devourer as Schala was.

And there is also the question of the timing of the real Dragon God's absorption into the DBT versus FATE's actions to split up and seal the Dragon God. I was assuming before thinking thoroughly about it that the sequence was: 1) Chronopolis defeats Dinopolis and hence FATE defeats the Dragon God, 2) The real Dragon God was absorbed by Lavos, leaving the quasi-existence, and 3) FATE splits up and seals away this quasi-existence. But other orderings of these three events are possible given the evidence we have.

[NimmerStill]

Ok, so Belthasar says:

Originally the whole
   Archipelago of El Nido
   was known as the
   Sea of Eden.
   This was because it was
   where the Dragon Gods
   resided.
   
   But then FATE sealed away
   the Dragon Gods' powers, in
   effect becoming a god itself.
   Thus the islands where the
   new godhead, FATE, existed
   came to be called the
   Sea of Eden instead.

So I guess it has to be that first FATE split up the Dragon God into the six, and then FATE sealed away their powers. And for El Nido to have become known as the Sea of Eden *because* the Dragon Gods lived there and, at the time, still had their powers (it is implied), there has to have been a significant amount of time between these two events, the splitting and the sealing. Wow, this is confusing. Because just a few sentences later, he says, as Beach Bum already mentioned:

FATE divided the
   one Dragon God entity up into
   6 weaker plasma life-forms...
   Then scattered them across
   the land and sealed them away.

Which seems to imply that the splitting and the sealing were basically at the same time. But I guess it doesn't quite say that. And this still doesn't take into account when the "real" Dragon God was absorbed by Lavos and the quasi-existence became the thing that FATE was dealing with. I'm going to start a new thread about this.

[Beach Bum]

That quote by Belthasar makes things even more confusing than they should be. It implies there was a population for the name "Sea of Eden" to become known to. Otherwise, it was known as the Sea of Eden to who? The Chronopolis workers? It also implies that people knew of FATE's existence, which I believe was not the case. Seems iffy.

Steena also has this quote regarding the Dragon Gods:

   Have you noticed that many
   of the islands were named
   after dragons?
   This is because those islands
   were where the Dragon Gods
   resided.
   But as human society grew less
   concerned for nature, the
   Dragon Gods chose to hide
   from the world's eyes...

So human society named some of the islands after the Dragon Gods that lived there, but according to Belthasar, the entire region was also known as the Sea of Eden because of the Dragon Gods? And then at some point they decided they didn't care about Dragon Gods anymore and renamed the region El Nido? And then they named FATE's corner of the archipelago the Sea of Eden because it was where the new godhead resided?

I dunno. It seems weird. The population of El Nido should not be aware that there's a supercomputer in the Sea of Eden playing god. As far as they know, it was already called that, and in Home World it was eventually changed to the Dead Sea after the Acacia Dragoons met their end there.

Even the demi humans and explorers of El Nido don't have much to tell about the Sea of Eden:

   Why do you wish to know
   about the Sea of Eden?
   Even if I told you, there
   is no way for you to enter it.
   Poisonous leaves that cause
   instant death surround the sea.
   Anyone with a head on his
   shoulder would not dare go
   near there.
   That place is cursed...
   The eternal flames of the gods
   are trying to burn their way
   into the hearts of humans.
   It is much too dangerous.
   Even the seagulls avoid
   flying over that place.
   There are rumors that, long ago,
   a deadly Dragon God sealed a
   flame in there.
   It is also rumored that
   time is reversed.
   I strongly urge that
   you not go near there.

   Legend has it that the people who
   lived in the Sea of Eden passed
   through the Pearly Gates to inhabit
   the El Nido Archipelago.
   If that's true, then that means
   we're all descendants of those
   first settlers of mankind.

Also, if FATE split up the Dragon God without sealing away its powers, there's no way it would have not immediately retaliated. I feel like that quote by Belthasar could be a mistranslation or just oddly phrased.

[NimmerStill]

Yeah, this whole thing is confusing. In terms of FATE as a godhead, I interpreted it as that FATE subconsciously influenced people, perhaps through the Records of Fate, to worship the *concept* of fate as a god, not FATE the supercomputer itself.

But that still doesn't explain why they regard the enclosed southeast as the Sea of Eden; they shouldn't know that anything of importance is there, and fate as a concept wouldn't be located anywhere.

Of course, given what the Sage and some others have said, there are apparently a lot of spooky properties of the area, though "Sea of Eden" wouldn't be the first name one would come up with just based on that. We might have expected it to be called the Dead Sea all along, in both worlds, if people were basing their ideas on poison leaves, seagulls avoiding it, and the like, but that isn't the case.

However, regards this:

Also, if FATE split up the Dragon God without sealing away its powers, there's no way it would have not immediately retaliated.

I'm not sure this is as much of a problem. We could imagine that FATE had a certain amount of power over the Dragons so that they wouldn't/couldn't retaliate, but either didn't have enough to seal their powers, or FATE simply hadn't thought of that yet, or perhaps FATE *wanted* people to worship them as gods for a time. Not exactly narratively satisfying, but could be plausible.

[Beach Bum]

I suppose, but then what stopped them from merging once again? Did they require the Frozen Flame, since they sent Harle to steal it? Or was that just a trophy they took on top of destroying FATE?

[NimmerStill]

I suppose, but then what stopped them from merging once again? Did they require the Frozen Flame, since they sent Harle to steal it? Or was that just a trophy they took on top of destroying FATE?

Perhaps the former: perhaps the Frozen Flame was required to "break the spell", so to speak, of splitting them that FATE had cast.

The alternatives to this scenario that I can see, the ones that keep the splitting up of the Dragons and the sealing of their powers as one event, are:

A) It was back when the Dragon God was one that it was worshiped as a god, and when it was split up and sealed was when it began to be forgotten.

or B) It was the split *and* sealed Dragons that were worshiped as gods.

Both of these have problems.

A) is contradicted by Belthasar's aforementioned quote that the Sea of Eden was where the Dragon Gods, plural, resided. It is also contradicted by every other mention of the history of the Dragon Gods by people in El Nido, who never mention a former state where the Dragon God was one. A case in point by Direa:

The gods that represent
   each Element are called the
   '"Dragon Gods."'
   Since they symbolize the
   powers of nature, they are
   also commonly referred to
   as the '"Gods of Nature."'

If the glory days of the Dragon God's power, and hence its worship, were when it was one being, then those most devoted to their religion should retain some cultural memory of that state when it was one. And indeed, if the instant they were split, their power waned, then that state should be downplayed by the devotees, rather than glorified.

B) is, as stated before, at odds with Belthasar's statement that when FATE sealed away their powers, that was the beginning of the end of their recognition as gods and their influence over most of the people of El Nido. There's this aforementioned quote by Belthasar:

But then FATE sealed away
   the Dragon Gods' powers, in
   effect becoming a god itself.
   Thus the islands where the
   new godhead, FATE, existed
   came to be called the
   Sea of Eden instead.

And a little later:

At that moment, the seven
   Dragons who had been
   rendered almost powerless
   and forgotten...

So these two quotes really seem to cement the idea that the Dragon Gods' relevance to the people of El Nido was contingent on them having their powers, at least most of them.

On balance, B) seems a bit more plausible than A) (and after all, the Dragons still pack a punch against the party, even when their powers are supposedly sealed), but if we take Belthasar's exposition seriously, then my alternative to both of these, namely that the splitting preceded the sealing of powers by several generations, seems most consistent with all the text of the game.