Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?

[Zenning]

Alright, I'm going to need you to explain a few things to me, I need some things cleared up.

Yes, but Information over Zeal and Lavos was scarse. Heck, they probably knew nothing of Lavos except possibly his structure. The only true report was the Lithosphere one in a dead timeline.

Belthasar didn't need information about Zeal, because he was FROM Zeal. After all, if you look up into the sky and see no floating islands, I think he could've rationally assumed that Zeal was destroyed, especially after looking around at the ruined world of 2300AD.

And then, there were still news or surveillance footage of Lavos destroying the world.

So yeah, my point is, he didn't need a lot of information to go on. But, you may be correct when you say Belthasar took a bunch of big gambles.

And how the hell could Belthaesar know that the Reptite dimension would be pulled in, or Schala would activate the magnetic storm.

Wait, why did Schala activate a magnetic storm? Was that the storm that led Serge to the Frozen Flame? Did Schala lead Serge to the Frozen Flame because she knew it would cure him...? And correct me if I'm wrong, but Schala created that storm while she was in the Time Devourer?

Though Belthasar probably did plan alot of it, I bet that he took big gambles. Had the Earth not counterbalanced Chronopolis with Dinopolis, there would be no Chrono Cross.

I've one question for you here: why would Dinopolis serve as a counterbalance to Chronopolis?

And Belthasar obviousally probably didn't know about Kid or her existance until he met her. It may be called Project Kid, but we don't know when the name could have been made. Maybe after the first time that Serge died, he needed Kid to help Serge. But before that, He probably knew. Might have been doing the plan like in 10,000BC thanks to the time crash.

Wait, I thought Belthasar was responsible for Project Kid? And what was even the purpose of Project Kid, other than creating Kid? For what purpose was Kid even created for?

[Sentenal]

Rabid Joe, you were saying that you agree with a guy who says that the idea that Belthasar planned out CC is BS.

On the contraire, I'm saying that he supposedly did - which is why I call BS. All accounted for, it's plain impossible for him to have prepared and planned out ten millenia worth of history, and a bevy of other impossiblities that's simply beyond the reach of a being that's not even a deity.

Thats where I come from, thats why I think hes a nut case.

[GrayLensman]

On the contraire, I'm saying that he supposedly did - which is why I call BS. All accounted for, it's plain impossible for him to have prepared and planned out ten millenia worth of history, and a bevy of other impossiblities that's simply beyond the reach of a being that's not even a deity. Hell, he makes Lavos, Earth, FATE and the Dragon Gods seem like frightened pussy cats before his half-assed uber-omniscience.

Prophet:
   Oh, my name is
   Belthasar...
   
Belthasar:
   In the ancient, magical
   Kingom of Zeal, I was known
   as a sage of reason...
   
Belthasar:
   Well, that was up until the
   Queen of Zeal attempted to
   harness the power of Lavos...
   Let's just say, things got out
   of control and Lavos created a
   dimensional vortex that threw
   me far into the future!

Belthasar:
   There, I seized the opportunity
   to study the science of the
   future...
   I was then able to apply to that
   the knowledge I brought from my
   own era, including magic, which
   was long lost in the future.
   Anyway, this led me to make
   huge progress in the research
   of time.

Belthasar:
   Well, that research led to
   the creation of Chronopolis
   and to the Time Crash...
   You might think I really
   blew it, but perhaps it
   was really my finest hour!
   Ho-ho-hoh...

[Lucca]
   And now, about '"Project Kid"'...
   the time control project
   Belthasar planned out.
   The whole project existed to
   lead you to this one, special
   point in time!
   The founding of Chronopolis,
   the Time Crash, and the
   battle between FATE and
   the Dragon Gods...
   It was all coordinated so
   that you would get your
   hands on the Chrono Cross
   and come to this place!

   Of course, Kid was not to
   know anything about this
   whole plan until later,
   when all this will finish.
   Further in the future, Kid
   is meant to travel back ten
   years in time from now to
   save Serge from drowning.
   And then, Kid was also
   meant to call Serge into the
   other world as he spoke with
   Leena here on Opassa Beach!
   
   You're our last hope...
   Our final chance...
   Only you, who came into
   contact with Schala, and
   Kid, Schala's clone-
   daughter, can do it!
   In the darkness that exists
   on the other side of time,
   Schala has been integrated
   with the Devourer of Time!
   Please, Serge!
   Release Princess Schala
   from the binds of that
   monster and her own hatred!
   Show us, the life-forms
   that exist on this planet,
   what our new future will
   be...

According to the script, Belthasar really did plan Project Kid in its entirety.  However, Chrono Cross doesn't explain how Belthasar was able to accomplish this.  He did create the FATE supercomputer, which was a match for the Reptites' Dragon God, but those entities cannot compare to the power of Lavos, the Planet or the Time Devourer.

My only explanation is the Planet, in accordance with Schala, was the true author of Project Kid.  Belthasar, as the "prophet of time," acted on the Planet's instruction.  We know that the Planet pulled Dinopolis across time and space on its own initiative and only it would be capable of predicting Lavos' actions in order to precipitate the Time Crash.  Schala fullfilled the function of manipulating the Time Devourer.

[Sir Frog]

I just started my second playthrough of Chrono Cross.  Immediately, I began to wonder just how in hell Belthasar was able to predict that Serge would wander down to Opassa Beach in order to be whisked away to Another World.  Granted, Belthasar's plan probably would have worked had Serge showed up at the beach a few hours earlier or later.  But how could Belthasar have predicted that Serge would end up at Opassa Beach exactly ten years, give or take a few hours, after the point at which the dimension split in two?

I apologize if my question has a truly simple answer.  However, as noted, I have only played the game once and the details of Belthasar's plan still escape me.

[Chrono'99]

I just started my second playthrough of Chrono Cross.  Immediately, I began to wonder just how in hell Belthasar was able to predict that Serge would wander down to Opassa Beach in order to be whisked away to Another World.  Granted, Belthasar's plan probably would have worked had Serge showed up at the beach a few hours earlier or later.  But how could Belthasar have predicted that Serge would end up at Opassa Beach exactly ten years, give or take a few hours, after the point at which the dimension split in two?

I apologize if my question has a truly simple answer.  However, as noted, I have only played the game once and the details of Belthasar's plan still escape me.

Serge probably often goes there with Leena. Belthasar just had to tell Kid to "call" him (for some reason ten years after the split).

[V_Translanka]

I just wanted to point out that I started this thread before Dark Saint wrote this...

On the contraire, I'm saying that he supposedly did - which is why I call BS. All accounted for, it's plain impossible for him to have prepared and planned out ten millenia worth of history, and a bevy of other impossiblities that's simply beyond the reach of a being that's not even a deity. Hell, he makes Lavos, Earth, FATE and the Dragon Gods seem like frightened pussy cats before his half-assed uber-omniscience.

And that I still haven't been back for a rebuttle or anything...so...yeah, I was basing it on the post where DS says that the theory is BS, not that post where DS basically kind of tries to weasle out of it by saying that Belthasar only 'supposedly' planned it out...

[Zaperking]

Alright, I'm going to need you to explain a few things to me, I need some things cleared up.

Yes, but Information over Zeal and Lavos was scarse. Heck, they probably knew nothing of Lavos except possibly his structure. The only true report was the Lithosphere one in a dead timeline.

Belthasar didn't need information about Zeal, because he was FROM Zeal. After all, if you look up into the sky and see no floating islands, I think he could've rationally assumed that Zeal was destroyed, especially after looking around at the ruined world of 2300AD.

And then, there were still news or surveillance footage of Lavos destroying the world.

So yeah, my point is, he didn't need a lot of information to go on. But, you may be correct when you say Belthasar took a bunch of big gambles.

And how the hell could Belthaesar know that the Reptite dimension would be pulled in, or Schala would activate the magnetic storm.

Wait, why did Schala activate a magnetic storm? Was that the storm that led Serge to the Frozen Flame? Did Schala lead Serge to the Frozen Flame because she knew it would cure him...? And correct me if I'm wrong, but Schala created that storm while she was in the Time Devourer?

Though Belthasar probably did plan alot of it, I bet that he took big gambles. Had the Earth not counterbalanced Chronopolis with Dinopolis, there would be no Chrono Cross.

I've one question for you here: why would Dinopolis serve as a counterbalance to Chronopolis?

And Belthasar obviousally probably didn't know about Kid or her existance until he met her. It may be called Project Kid, but we don't know when the name could have been made. Maybe after the first time that Serge died, he needed Kid to help Serge. But before that, He probably knew. Might have been doing the plan like in 10,000BC thanks to the time crash.

Wait, I thought Belthasar was responsible for Project Kid? And what was even the purpose of Project Kid, other than creating Kid? For what purpose was Kid even created for?

When I said information about Zeal, I kind of ment what people would know. Zeal is simply a myth in their time, and it seems that Belthasar didn't reveal to anyone who or where he was from in 2300AD. Also, Belthasar did miss out alot of parts like the Black Omen.

I don't think there was any footage of Lavos destroying the world, since he was eradicated before he could deal the final blow. Though, I do believe that they got footage of Lavos appearing from under the ground.

The Planet needed Dinopolis as a counter balance to Chronopolis because if Chronopolis people had gone out to the main land, then the future would be even more advance. Basically, your mixing highly advanced people with people who are yet to be advanced, and by interbreeding, you would change who is born and not. Obviousally, FATE tried it's best to stop this. But the Planet also didn't want FATE to fully change El Nido. Dinopolis was sucked in and had a war vs FATE. Then somewhere in between, FATE sealed the Dragon Gods, and the dragonians and humans became friends.

Schala activated the storm for a few reasons, a few being theories. Game evidance suggests that Schala indeed heard Serge's crying from his wound and decided to send him to Chronopolis, which was down thanks to the magnetic storm, so that he would be healed. And when he touched the FF, he instantly became the arbiter and the prometheus circut kicked in, blocking FATE from accessing the FF. Another reason would have been to send Kid out from the DBT. Since Schala used the last of her compassion to create Kid and send her goodness with her, Schala's only chance would probably be to send her whilst Schala had the link between dimensions open. I personally think that in a way now, Kid may be from another time line, the original possibly. For more info, ask me on my theory >.>

Kid's whole existance is very peculiar. I have no idea how Belthasar would know that Kid would be created, hence spawning the idea that Belthasar only added Kid into the project after he found out she existed. Since Serge was healed, then killed. Kid grew up. And then she encountered Belthasar who gave her the Neo Epoch and made her save Serge. But then it seems as if her memory of Belthasar has been erased Oo Anyway, I don't think Kid knows that she is being used, just like FATE doesn't know, Serge etc. and even Schala to a degree was used.

@Gray
"Lavos created a
dimensional vortex that threw
me far into the future!"

How much WORD PLAY IS THERE IN CHRONO CROSS!! WTF! Dimensional Vortex! How the hell can a dimensional vortex send you into the future when it's not a time vortex. WTF. Am I missing something >.> Basically, this makes it seem as if The original time line is a dimension of its own, and the one made by Crono is a new dimension aswell.

[Zenning]

When I said information about Zeal, I kind of ment what people would know. Zeal is simply a myth in their time, and it seems that Belthasar didn't reveal to anyone who or where he was from in 2300AD. Also, Belthasar did miss out alot of parts like the Black Omen.

WELL, the first time Crono & Co go to 2300AD, the Black Omen ISN'T there. When they visited the Ocean Palace, they changed history that resulted in the Ocean Palace arising from the depths as the Black Omen.

I don't think there was any footage of Lavos destroying the world, since he was eradicated before he could deal the final blow. Though, I do believe that they got footage of Lavos appearing from under the ground.

WELL, there was that footage of Lavos destroying the world on the computer in Arris Dome in 2300AD. Belthasar probably could've accessed that same information from his own computer in the Keeper's Dome if that footage was available on das intarweb, or if the computers were linked via some kind of network.

The Planet needed Dinopolis as a counter balance to Chronopolis because if Chronopolis people had gone out to the main land, then the future would be even more advance. Basically, your mixing highly advanced people with people who are yet to be advanced, and by interbreeding, you would change who is born and not. Obviousally, FATE tried it's best to stop this. But the Planet also didn't want FATE to fully change El Nido. Dinopolis was sucked in and had a war vs FATE. Then somewhere in between, FATE sealed the Dragon Gods, and the dragonians and humans became friends..

RIGHT. FATE's purpose was to preserve the original timeline even after Chronopolis was sent back in time. I remember, now.

HOWEVER, I thought the Dragonians and Humans went into war with each other, and the Dragonians lost, henceforth the Dragonians being more or less absent in El Nido, leaving only ruins of their civilization?

Schala activated the storm for a few reasons, a few being theories. Game evidance suggests that Schala indeed heard Serge's crying from his wound and decided to send him to Chronopolis, which was down thanks to the magnetic storm, so that he would be healed. And when he touched the FF, he instantly became the arbiter and the prometheus circut kicked in, blocking FATE from accessing the FF. Another reason would have been to send Kid out from the DBT. Since Schala used the last of her compassion to create Kid and send her goodness with her, Schala's only chance would probably be to send her whilst Schala had the link between dimensions open. I personally think that in a way now, Kid may be from another time line, the original possibly. For more info, ask me on my theory >.>.

What I don't understand is, why would Serge's contact with the Frozen Flame block FATE off from it? What does the Frozen Flame have to do in relation to FATE? It's more than simply a power source, is it not?

In addition, what's this "Arbiter" I keep hearing about?

Also, are you saying that Schala, for lack of a better phrase, "created" Kid from within the Time Devourer?

[Sir Frog]

I just started my second playthrough of Chrono Cross.  Immediately, I began to wonder just how in hell Belthasar was able to predict that Serge would wander down to Opassa Beach in order to be whisked away to Another World.  Granted, Belthasar's plan probably would have worked had Serge showed up at the beach a few hours earlier or later.  But how could Belthasar have predicted that Serge would end up at Opassa Beach exactly ten years, give or take a few hours, after the point at which the dimension split in two?

I apologize if my question has a truly simple answer.  However, as noted, I have only played the game once and the details of Belthasar's plan still escape me.

Serge probably often goes there with Leena. Belthasar just had to tell Kid to "call" him (for some reason ten years after the split).

That makes no sense.  When Belthasar was in his planning stage, Serge had died at 7 years old.  There is no way Belthasar could predict what Serge and Leena's behavior would be like if Serge had lived ten years longer.

[Shadow_Dragon]

Everyone has the ability to be 'controlled'. Let's say the entity did pull Marle in the DBT or w/e to ignite the events of CT. Had Marle decided not to stand in that part of the room, the entity wouldn't have pulled her out of the other side of the room. Had Crono decided to rescure Leene upon arriving without the need for Lucca's 'fake' explanation, the entity probably wouldn't have pulled her into the DBT.

I used the term 'decided' lightly, because, in reality, one person's decisions force other people to make certain decisiosn which force other people to make certain decisions, and, in the end, the first person was really forced into making decisions by other people's decisions, which were forced by other people's decisions, and so on. This is my concept of fate...

Belthasar apparently had FATE as a supercomputer. Now that I think about it, the name 'FATE' could've been created for a job of predicting people's actions and decisions, and thus fate before FATE had the purpose of controlling fate to keep the human race alive.

So, my interpretation is that Belthasar could use FATE to simulate his actions; he could see what would happen if he let the flame pull Chronopolis back in time instead of doing something to counteract it (or did he send it back without the flame?), and that the planet would respond, and so on...

Even if he couldn't use FATE to predict his actions, he could still use the Neo-Epoch to change 'tweak' history as some people have mentioned.




Also, I'd like to clear up something. Belthasar would NOT have any footage of the apocalypse. He might have footage of Lavos popping out of the ground and Crono and co. running inside the shell... And then I assume the shell would just sit there, since it wasn't in the pocket dimension, or something. But Belthasar wouldn't have any access to the footage from the ruined future. The OLD Belthasar--the Belthasar that appears in 2300AD in the ruined future--would have access to the footage. The Belthasar in CC is NOT the same Belthasar as the Nu in CT. It kind of disappoints me, though I guess I can't really expect it of a game from 10 years ago, but if you go to Belthasar or his Nu or w/e after the Ocean Palace disaster, there should be SOME difference because, as far as I remember, he was involved in it, witnessed it, or something.

[Chrono'99]

I just started my second playthrough of Chrono Cross.  Immediately, I began to wonder just how in hell Belthasar was able to predict that Serge would wander down to Opassa Beach in order to be whisked away to Another World.  Granted, Belthasar's plan probably would have worked had Serge showed up at the beach a few hours earlier or later.  But how could Belthasar have predicted that Serge would end up at Opassa Beach exactly ten years, give or take a few hours, after the point at which the dimension split in two?

I apologize if my question has a truly simple answer.  However, as noted, I have only played the game once and the details of Belthasar's plan still escape me.

Serge probably often goes there with Leena. Belthasar just had to tell Kid to "call" him (for some reason ten years after the split).

That makes no sense.  When Belthasar was in his planning stage, Serge had died at 7 years old.  There is no way Belthasar could predict what Serge and Leena's behavior would be like if Serge had lived ten years longer.

Belthasar didn't have to know that it would be exactly ten years later, but he knew for sure that Serge and Leena would be there one day. Leena states that Serge and she used to sit there at Opassa Beach to talk when they were kids, and they even made some kind of important promise there... Moreover, if Belthasar doesn't feel like waiting, all he would have to do is programming a Record of FATE to force Leena to bring Serge there.

[AuraTwilight]

Moreover, if Belthasar doesn't feel like waiting, all he would have to do is programming a Record of FATE to force Leena to bring Serge there.

Except the Records don't work in Home World.

WELL, there was that footage of Lavos destroying the world on the computer in Arris Dome in 2300AD. Belthasar probably could've accessed that same information from his own computer in the Keeper's Dome if that footage was available on das intarweb, or if the computers were linked via some kind of network.

Wrong future.

HOWEVER, I thought the Dragonians and Humans went into war with each other, and the Dragonians lost, henceforth the Dragonians being more or less absent in El Nido, leaving only ruins of their civilization?

No, they were friends for a while. The Dragonians died out naturally (or maybe FATE had a hand in it, who knows?)

What I don't understand is, why would Serge's contact with the Frozen Flame block FATE off from it? What does the Frozen Flame have to do in relation to FATE? It's more than simply a power source, is it not?

In addition, what's this "Arbiter" I keep hearing about?

You said you played CC three times, and you're asking these questions? Whatever. The Prometheus Circuit was a safeguard for the Frozen Flame. It made it so that only the Arbiter could touch it. (The Arbiter being the one individual who gains and controls the Frozen Flame's powers upon touching it.) When FATE had a power failure during the storm, the Frozen Flame "registered" it as dead until it rebooted. But by then, it was too late. Serge became the Arbiter, locking FATE out. The Frozen Flame acts as FATE's powersource. It also needs to safeguard it to make sure it doesn't change history.

Also, are you saying that Schala, for lack of a better phrase, "created" Kid from within the Time Devourer?

yup.

[Chrono'99]

Moreover, if Belthasar doesn't feel like waiting, all he would have to do is programming a Record of FATE to force Leena to bring Serge there.

Except the Records don't work in Home World.

Oh, then he had to wait ten whole years.

No, they were friends for a while. The Dragonians died out naturally (or maybe FATE had a hand in it, who knows?)

Actually, the Dragonians lived with the El Nido humans for quite some time, their extinction began some time after the Porreans started to colonize the archipelago (900 or 920 AD).

In addition, what's this "Arbiter" I keep hearing about?

Some people think that the "Arbiter of Time" is the One that the Frozen Flame has chosen (this person is Serge, it can't be anyone else), and some others think that the "Arbiter of Time" is simply the person that the Prometheus Circuit "registered" and granted exclusive access to the Frozen Flame room in Chronopolis (it appeared to be Serge but maybe it could have been anyone).

[Sentenal]

Wait, the records don't work in Home?  Since when?

[Zenning]

Wait, the records don't work in Home?  Since when?

I believe he means that FATE has no active role in Home World and can't control what the people do.

Then again, when we talk to the people in Arni Village of Home World, in Chief Radius's hut, the 3 people lined up in front of the record tell us that FATE tells them what to do.

...quite a conundrum.

I believe FATE actually controls both timelines from the one timelines.
It's a transdimensional computer!