Author Topic: Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?  (Read 21738 times)

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« on: September 01, 2005, 07:44:59 am »
Okay, over at Chrono Shock, someone just told me that they don't believe that, and in fact think that the idea is complete BS, Belthasar planned out the events of CC...

Check Out Dark Saint's Latest Posts

You can ignore our debate about Character Development, what it is, and whether or not Kid & Harle have a good amount of it in CC if you want...I'm actually defending the amount of Character Development in CC!!! Can you believe it?!?

Just thought I'd share...Move this if needed...It might not belong here...>_>

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2005, 10:47:58 am »
Looking over some of the stuff going on in that topic you linked, I’m surprised just how often people are unable to grasp the concept of character development. They see that and take it to mean that the character has to change somehow, and that’s simply not true. Character development can be accomplished in three ways. One of them is change, aye, but the other two are dramatic conflict and exposition. I’m not taking these out of a book; rather, I make these propositions on my own authority, in my own words. However, those with a rigorous discipline in literature and composition will be quick to understand in official terms what I am explaining qualitatively.

Character development is the conveyance of a personality to an audience. The fundamental relationship between the three vehicles of character development that I have listed is that each conveys personality in a completely exclusive way.

~~~
First, and the most elemental of the three vehicles of character development, is to give the character a dramatic conflict to overcome. It’s a term that I thought kids learned in middle school language arts class, but I never hear anyone mention the concept of conflict in terms of character development. Dramatic conflict conveys personality in terms of stress lines and tension. Whereas the “path of least resistance” can be considered an absence of personality, any deviation from this path implies characteristics that in turn lead to a distinct personality. Because the nature of this type of character development is so often implicit, you might think of it as drawing the outline of a personality, rather than the substance of it.

Second, and the most unappreciated of the three vehicles of character development, is to give the character exposition. This has deep aesthetic value and isn’t used nearly often enough in modern English literature. It is also the most difficult of the three to master, and its absence is the most apparent telltale of an incompetent writer. Exposition conveys personality in terms of flesh, texture, and detail. Imagery is the key word here, provided you understand that I’m not talking about visual imagery so much as the…“image” of a hard disk, let’s say. Exposition is like a parade of imagery, revealing new characteristics that were not previously known, which build up to a distinct personality. If dramatic conflict is the outline of a personality, then exposition is the substance. And although exposition is not really the opposite of dramatic conflict, they do share a complementary relationship, much like nouns and verbs.

Third, and lastly of the three vehicles of character development, is to expose the character to change, per se, whereby the character’s traits are altered. It is therefore the most coarse technique of the three, although for longer stories it becomes exceedingly practicable. Whereas exposition reveals character traits, and conflict tests them, change affects them. It is therefore somewhat different from the first two, because it relies on the richness of existing character development to itself achieve richness. (After all, if you try changing something with no outline and no substance, who’s going to notice? Who’s going to care?) And, so, when people argue that a character must change in order to undergo “character development,” they are actually missing the entire point of the creation of character traits through conflict and exposition. (Yes, it is true that change can also create character traits, but only inasmuch as is provided an answer to, “Change from what?” Some would consider this to be simply a piggyback on one of the other two types of character development.) Thus, the people who make this argument are the same people who often feel compelled to throw their characters into various, contrived situations simply “to give them something to do.” Such folks do not grasp the theory of composition.

~~~
Finally, please note that all three of these vehicles of character development are separable from the plot of a story. Character development and plot do not have to work together. Of course, in the best literature they nearly always do, but I mention it because most people just can’t separate the two concepts in their minds, which gives away their lack of understanding. Often, people will use “plot” and “character development” interchangeably, which is patently incorrect.

~~~
“Exposition” is already a literary term, and it means the same thing I have taken it to mean here, but in a far more limited sense. So, hoping to avoid confusion, and operating on the hunch that few people here know what “exposition” really is in the sense that I intend, I have composed a very short story detailing character development through exposition. (This is loosely based upon a story I did not write.) At the heart of the story is a dramatic conflict, which comes in the form of a spoken question. However, everything else besides the question itself is pure exposition, with no explicit dramatic conflict and no change:

~~~
A very old man, Louis Morgan, leaned back into an old walnut porch swing, eating a juicy peach from the orchard on his plantation. The warmth of the summer and the sweet flesh of the fruit sent him dreaming back to the day so long ago when, on that very same porch, he pondered whether he would ask the woman he loved to marry him…

“Will I or nill I?” the young man asked of himself, biting into the sweet flesh of a peach while anxiety and excitement battled together in his stomach. Because, after all, it is a big decision to ask the person you love to marry you. And as he thought it over, Louis looked about the orchards, and toward the fields beyond…into an endless sea of golden grass. His grandfather had founded this plantation over eighty years ago, in his prime. Built it out of nothing! He had been a legend of a man; no doubt. A few years after starting the plantation, he had gone on an expedition to California and returned with a dozen beautiful peach saplings and a new wife, whose father had given the saplings as a wedding gift. He planted them right outside the house, and went about raising a family.

The times soon called upon him, and he served as a colonel for the South before the war took him away forever. When she got the news, his wife was stricken with grief and suddenly felt very alone, for it was a long way from California and her own family. But by then they had two girls, one of whom would grow up to be Louis’ mother, and she put her heart into raising them. Louis remembered his grandmother as a young boy. She was very fond of those peach trees, and she could do magic with the fruit…peach pie, peach cobbler, peach salad. But on the hottest summer days, when the chores were finished, she would go outside with the young Louis, and they’d sit on the porch swing together and eat plain old ordinary raw peaches, right down to the pit, and they’d get covered in sticky peach juice and make an enormous mess of themselves, usually having a very good time of it.

As he grew up, Louis too began to treasure those peach trees—which by now were actually the descendents of the original trees, much like Louis himself was the descendent of the original Morgan. And so it was, that on this day, as he got to the end of the peach, the very last bite, and was licking the pit, thinking about the woman he loved, he wondered for the last time…“Will I or nill I?” Then he looked at the pit, coarse and brown in his sticky fingers, and waiting with eternal patience to be thrown back to the Earth so that it too could become a tree, someday. The sight of it struck him with a moment of deep clarity, and all at once the excitement and anxiety in his stomach paused, for just an instant, as he made his decision.

The memory faded. Louis found himself a very old man once more, sitting on his porch in the midst of a lovely summer afternoon, looking into the pit of another peach. His granddaughter sat beside him, still working on her own peach, talking in between bites about the sorts of creatures that only kids could see, and it was anyone’s guess if she was getting more of the peach in her mouth or on her dress. He grinned to himself and looked back out into the orchard again. Just apart from the other trees stood one in particular, surrounded by flagstones. It never gave the tastiest fruit, but it was always his favorite. He figured his granddaughter would probably understand, someday. And then Louis Morgan sat back in the swing and murmured half to himself, “I will.”

Rabid Joe

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2005, 02:39:29 pm »
I agree with him.  Note that he isn't saying that he disagrees with the claim that Belthasar planned everything out, he says

Quote

On the contraire, I'm saying that he supposedly did - which is why I call BS. All accounted for, it's plain impossible for him to have prepared and planned out ten millenia worth of history, and a bevy of other impossiblities that's simply beyond the reach of a being that's not even a deity. Hell, he makes Lavos, Earth, FATE and the Dragon Gods seem like frightened pussy cats before his half-assed uber-omniscience.


It's really pretty much impossible to have planned everything out in this way, manipulating all those god-like entities (The Planet, Fate, Time Devourer, The Dragon Gods).  It requires a hefty amount of suspension of disbelief, and really, I think it was just a dumb plot twist.

Edit:  By the way, Lord J Esq, what you posted was very interesting and informative.  I'm curious to know what you think on the subject of whether or not Chrono Cross has good character development.  I'd say by that by the very nature of the fact that it has so many characters, it can't have good development, because as the player can have different characters for every situation, each character must react in the same way to a situation in order to make sure that the story goes on properly.  That automatically takes away the idea of development through a character's reaction to dramatic conflict (I guess this can probably be seen in most RPGs!).  Unless the programmers gave a side quest for each character, we have very little chance of seeing the characters change.  So all that's really left is exposition, which we do get for most characters.  Of course, there are a few characters who are more important to the story, and could theoretically get all three aspects of development, but I really never saw that happen to its full potential.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2005, 02:46:24 pm »
Hes a nut case.  Belthasar didn't plan out the exact events, he made an outline that would eventually reach his goal.  That is explicit.

Rabid Joe

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2005, 03:13:22 pm »
Can you please explain what the parts of this outline were?  It would have to end with Serge getting the Chrono Cross in order to free Schala.  In order to get the Crono Cross, he would have to get the Dragon Tear in both dimensions.  In order to do that, he would have to get pulled over to the other dimension, which required the Time Crash, Dinopolis being pulled back to counteract the Time Crash, the panther bite, Schala helping guiding Wazuki to Chronopolis, FATE creating Lynx to kill Serge so he could jump dimenstions, Schala creating Kid to save Serge and pull him to another World, ...Already he's toyed with the emotions of Schala, Lavos, the Planet, Fate... How can he have the power to predict all that?

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10795
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2005, 04:00:06 pm »
Those are the big points; easy enough to plan that when you have the greatest supercomputer ever created at your disposal. I'd be more worried about how he planned out the minute events concerning the manipulation of Porre and the Acacia Dragoons, etc.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2005, 04:22:38 pm »
What Zeality said.  I personally think he took a gamble with a few events.  But its explicit in the game that Belthasar DID plan out the events, arguing otherwise is absurd.

Chrono'99

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3605
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2005, 04:26:19 pm »
Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some other details, etc.

Eriol

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2005, 04:31:11 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some other details, etc.

hehe.  "tweak" the plan when needed perhaps?

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2005, 04:40:07 pm »
Quote from: Eriol
Quote from: Chrono'99
Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some other details, etc.

hehe.  "tweak" the plan when needed perhaps?


Yep.  We don't know that he didn't, so its possible.

Rabid Joe

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2005, 04:42:21 pm »
Keep in mind that Belthasar didn't actually do anything except cause the Time Crash to happen and help Serge out twice, but he knew that his actions would lead to Schala being freed from the Time Devourer.  You don't find that a little bit unrealistic (even in a world with aliens and time travel?).


Quote
But its explicit in the game that Belthasar DID plan out the events, arguing otherwise is absurd.


Yes, I know that in the game that Belthasar planned everything.  I just happen to think that it was a stupid move on the story writer's part.

Quote
Moreover, he might not even have needed to predict some of the events. With his Neo-Epoch, he could just have change time, go to the future to see what are the consequences, then go back to the past and change some details, etc.


I think Belthasar is smart enough to know that guessing and checking in the context of changing time is a bad idea.  He could have ended up in a time similar to the original 2300 where he had no access to his supercomputer.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2005, 04:56:21 pm »
He would have TTI, his Neo-Epoch would have that, and if a change resulted in a destroyed future, its simple as going back and undoing a change.

And just to comment on this:
Quote
Yes, I know that in the game that Belthasar planned everything. I just happen to think that it was a stupid move on the story writer's part.

Just because you don't think a part of the story was good enough, you discount it?  Well, under that logic, we got a perfect solution to the Marle disappearing plot-hole!  She didn't actually disappear!  Because we don't like the way they did that part of the story, we can discount it!

Rabid Joe

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2005, 05:14:10 pm »
Did I say anywhere that I discounted the idea that Belthasar planned everything?  No.  I said several times that I understand that that is the basic idea behind the story.  However, I happen to think that it is a stupid idea.  Please, before you post again, take the time to understand what I am saying here.  I am not arguing with you about what actually happened in the game, such as if we were arguing whether or not Schala merges with Kid at the end (an event that is up for debate), or whether or not Marle disappears (an event that is not up for debate).  What I am trying to say is that I think the story itself is unrealistic.  I'm not saying there is some other explanation for how everything occured.

In case you still don't understand, let me give you an example.  In Star Wars Episode I, it is revealed that C3P0 is built by Anakin Skywalker.  Some people (not including me) believe that this was a dumb idea.  This doesn't mean that they actually think he was built by someone else.  All it means is that they don't like the idea, in that case because it was cheesey and done as fan service.  Me, I don't like the idea that Belthasar planned everything in the game because I find it unrealistic.  I still, however, accept that it is what happened.

Zenning

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 254
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2005, 06:06:45 pm »
All I need to know to be able to reinforce the claim that Belthasar planned all those events out, is that Belthasar was warped so many years into the future (even after Lavos was defeated in Chrono Trigger, Belthasar still ended up in 2300AD, but in the 2300AD when the world WAS NOT destroyed).

Think about; if you were warped into the future, let alone warped to new surroundings, you want to find out what's going on there.

When Marty, in Back to the Future, wound up in another time period, what was the first thing he did? He checked the newspaper, and for a date, at that.

Being warped to the future, Belthasar had the opportunity to study all of the history that had gone on before, and thus, plan to rewrite history. The man had a lot of time, and a lot of intellect. All three factors coupled together, is what made it possible.

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Did Belthasar Plan Project Kid?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2005, 06:46:55 pm »
Yes, but Information over Zeal and Lavos was scarse. Heck, they probably knew nothing of Lavos except possibly his structure. The only true report was the Lithosphere one in a dead timeline.

And how the hell could Belthaesar know that the Reptite dimension would be pulled in, or Schala would activate the magnetic storm.

Though Belthasar probably did plan alot of it, I bet that he took big gambles. Had the Earth not counterbalanced Chronopolis with Dinopolis, there would be no Chrono Cross.

And Belthasar obviousally probably didn't know about Kid or her existance until he met her. It may be called Project Kid, but we don't know when the name could have been made. Maybe after the first time that Serge died, he needed Kid to help Serge. But before that, He probably knew. Might have been doing the plan like in 10,000BC thanks to the time crash.