Author Topic: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?  (Read 247 times)

legaiaflame

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2019, 10:16:11 pm »
That's the thing. There's nothing that says or explains how Lavos was able to survive. About the Mammon Machine... well, Cross says it also got flung into the DBT with Schala; but then back in Trigger you find it in the Black Omen, where Crono and company destroyed it for good. So it couldn't have been sent with Schala. I tried to check the Japanese version of Cross if the Machine is mentioned as well; but I couldn't tell. If anyone knows Japanese, they can check here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LeLNSkv4CI&list=PL62F7A0DD08DD7AFF&index=75&t=2m35s

Not into the future. Lavos, from the DBT, sent Chronopolis and the Flame from 2400AD into Antiquity (somewhere between 12000BC and 9600BC) as a way to disrupt its own defeat. Somehow. The Dragon God didn't absorb the flame. Both it and Dinopolis were brought from a different dimension by the Planet itself as a countermeasure to Lavos flinging Chronopolis into the past.

But in Cross after you defeat the Dragon God, Belthasar states it was absorbed by Lavos long ago along with the flame...and turned into the Time Devourer an evolved form of Lavos...Which also doesn't make any sense.

How is Lavos doing anything from the DBT? Let alone being able to absorb the Dragon God. And what happened to the Frozen Flame? Was it absorbed by Lavos as well? And here is the thing:

If Lavos is in the DBT why would he even need to absorb the Frozen Flame if it is still alive? It's only a small splinter of itself. It shouldn't even need it, rather the Frozen Flame should have become the new Lavos. That would make more sense...
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 10:20:36 pm by legaiaflame »

Acacia Sgt

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2387
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2019, 10:20:54 pm »
Not with the flame. Belthasar never says that.

Becoming the Time Devourer was due to merging with Schala, not absorbing the Dragon God. Belthasar himself states it was with a being of their own world. The Dragon God is from an alternate one.

legaiaflame

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2019, 10:27:02 pm »
So did Lavos absorb the Dragon God or no? If the Frozen Flame wasn't absorbed, what happened to it then? Also, how did the flame get on top of Terra Tower/Dinopolis?

Acacia Sgt

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2387
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2019, 10:34:58 pm »
So did Lavos absorb the Dragon God or no? If the Frozen Flame wasn't absorbed, what happened to it then? Also, how did the flame get on top of Terra Tower/Dinopolis?

Belthasar says it was. The Frozen Flame has always been in Chronopolis. Unless you mean the past version of it, since theoretically there should be two of them around, before taking the dimensional split into account.

After the Prometheus Lock got released, it was taken by the dragons. Or just Harle, I believe.

Vehek

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1685
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2019, 10:59:39 pm »
Here are some old retranslations for reference on some things that got brought up:
Dragon God Scene Retranslation(partial)
Is there any interest in a Chrono Cross retranslation? (Opassa beach)
So, those lines about Lavos consuming the Dragon God and the Mammon Machine falling with Schala were things added in the NA localization.

legaiaflame

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2019, 06:16:27 am »
Okay, so then my question is:

How did the Frozen Flame become the new Lavos? And how could Schala and the Mammon machine fuse with Lavos if there was no Lavos to fuse with? Is the game trying to tell me "terminated timeline Lavos" is just magically sitting in a time/dimensional gate waiting to latch onto Schala and the machine?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 06:50:25 am by legaiaflame »

Acacia Sgt

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2387
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2019, 12:49:21 pm »
The Flame didn't became a new Lavos. We've always been dealing with the same one.
Once more, the Machine was never involved; and there was a Lavos present. The one defeated in Trigger.
That is what pretty much what happened. During the Ocean Palace events, Schala got sent to the DBT. Later, Lavos is defeated but instead of dying is also sent to the DBT. How or why? It's not said clearly. Lavos itself has some spatial and temporal powers, perhaps that was it, who knows. Then, somehow, it decides, or it happens somehow on its own, merges with Schala who is already present there as well. Once again, no Machine involved.

legaiaflame

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2019, 02:55:33 pm »
The Flame didn't became a new Lavos. We've always been dealing with the same one.
Once more, the Machine was never involved; and there was a Lavos present. The one defeated in Trigger.
That is what pretty much what happened. During the Ocean Palace events, Schala got sent to the DBT. Later, Lavos is defeated but instead of dying is also sent to the DBT. How or why? It's not said clearly. Lavos itself has some spatial and temporal powers, perhaps that was it, who knows. Then, somehow, it decides, or it happens somehow on its own, merges with Schala who is already present there as well. Once again, no Machine involved.

Where in Cross does it state after Crono and company defeat Lavos, it was sent to the DBT? What is the exact text/quotes on that? So, basically, Crono and crew failed to defeat Lavos?

Also, if the Frozen Flame didn't become the new Lavos, what happened to it then?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 02:57:32 pm by legaiaflame »

EgyLynx

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2019, 03:24:24 pm »
 :? :shock:
And these ears i think ...but in Lavos... i believe all thinks--

But Lavos eyes is these humans whose must destory...

But...
The Flame didn't became a new Lavos. We've always been dealing with the same one.
Once more, the Machine was never involved; and there was a Lavos present. The one defeated in Trigger.
That is what pretty much what happened. During the Ocean Palace events, Schala got sent to the DBT. Later, Lavos is defeated but instead of dying is also sent to the DBT. How or why? It's not said clearly. Lavos itself has some spatial and temporal powers, perhaps that was it, who knows. Then, somehow, it decides, or it happens somehow on its own, merges with Schala who is already present there as well. Once again, no Machine involved.

Where in Cross does it state after Crono and company defeat Lavos, it was sent to the DBT? What is the exact text/quotes on that? So, basically, Crono and crew failed to defeat Lavos?

Also, if the Frozen Flame didn't become the new Lavos, what happened to it then?
Them fused one? but why?

Acacia Sgt

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2387
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2019, 04:12:37 pm »
Where in Cross does it state after Crono and company defeat Lavos, it was sent to the DBT? What is the exact text/quotes on that? So, basically, Crono and crew failed to defeat Lavos?

Also, if the Frozen Flame didn't become the new Lavos, what happened to it then?

There isn't. They only say Lavos is at the DBT. And that it was defeated by Crono and company. Ergo, after being defeated, Lavos then found itself on the DBT. How, when, or why? No word. Just that Lavos eventually made it to the DBT.

After Terra Tower? Who knows. It seemingly disappears for all we know.

legaiaflame

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2019, 04:38:45 pm »
Where in Cross does it state after Crono and company defeat Lavos, it was sent to the DBT? What is the exact text/quotes on that? So, basically, Crono and crew failed to defeat Lavos?

Also, if the Frozen Flame didn't become the new Lavos, what happened to it then?

There isn't. They only say Lavos is at the DBT. And that it was defeated by Crono and company. Ergo, after being defeated, Lavos then found itself on the DBT. How, when, or why? No word. Just that Lavos eventually made it to the DBT.

After Terra Tower? Who knows. It seemingly disappears for all we know.

It seems unlikely that the Lavos Crono and crew defeated would just be magically alive in another dimension. Crono and crew's intent was to destroy, to kill Lavos. Leaving no means for escape or survival. They fought for the planet's future. Would they let it escape so easily?

If it doesn't state how Lavos survived in the game, then it's more likely the Frozen Flame became the new Lavos, fused with the Dragon God and Schala...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 04:40:53 pm by legaiaflame »

Acacia Sgt

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2387
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2019, 04:48:35 pm »
It seems unlikely that the Lavos Crono and crew defeated would just be magically alive in another dimension. Crono and crew's intent was to destroy, to kill Lavos. Leaving no means for escape or survival. They fought for the planet's future. Would they let it escape so easily?

If it doesn't state how Lavos survived in the game, then it's more likely the Frozen Flame became the new Lavos, fused with the Dragon God and Schala...

They fought Lavos inside its pocket-dimension thingy. Even during the final battle Lavos uses its spatial and temporal powers. Who says it couldn't have made a last-ditch effort to flee into the DBT? Crono and company wouldn't have to be aware that happened. From their perspective, Lavos is gone and the future has been changed. It's just conjecture; but what doesn't change is that Lavos at some point ended in the DBT. If not then, then it still had to involve itself with a temporal distortion. If not of its own doing, then through some other means. As shown in CT DS, Lavos and Schala have already merged in 'the future where we already defeated Lavos' (I'm paraphrasing here), as the Magus the party encounters states in Time's Eclipse. Aka the DBT, as it were.

The Frozen Flame is just a piece of Lavos. It can't turn itself into a new one. By the way, as Vehek linked, that bit of the Dragon God being absorbed is only in the English script. Can you take it at face value if that detail isn't in the Japanese script? Besides, you'd still have to explain how the Frozen Flame would end in the DBT to merge with anyone anyway.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 04:49:36 pm by Acacia Sgt »

legaiaflame

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2019, 05:49:18 pm »
It seems unlikely that the Lavos Crono and crew defeated would just be magically alive in another dimension. Crono and crew's intent was to destroy, to kill Lavos. Leaving no means for escape or survival. They fought for the planet's future. Would they let it escape so easily?

If it doesn't state how Lavos survived in the game, then it's more likely the Frozen Flame became the new Lavos, fused with the Dragon God and Schala...

They fought Lavos inside its pocket-dimension thingy. Even during the final battle Lavos uses its spatial and temporal powers. Who says it couldn't have made a last-ditch effort to flee into the DBT? Crono and company wouldn't have to be aware that happened. From their perspective, Lavos is gone and the future has been changed. It's just conjecture; but what doesn't change is that Lavos at some point ended in the DBT. If not then, then it still had to involve itself with a temporal distortion. If not of its own doing, then through some other means. As shown in CT DS, Lavos and Schala have already merged in 'the future where we already defeated Lavos' (I'm paraphrasing here), as the Magus the party encounters states in Time's Eclipse. Aka the DBT, as it were.

The Frozen Flame is just a piece of Lavos. It can't turn itself into a new one. By the way, as Vehek linked, that bit of the Dragon God being absorbed is only in the English script. Can you take it at face value if that detail isn't in the Japanese script? Besides, you'd still have to explain how the Frozen Flame would end in the DBT to merge with anyone anyway.

Something so trivial as Lavos escaping into a portal at the last second, sort of cheapens the events of Chrono Trigger...Couldn't Masato Kato come up with a more believable way for it to have survived?

Would it have been so difficult to have the Frozen Flame grow and evolve into a new Lavos? There's a thousand ways to explain how It could. That would be more interesting than the almost non-existent explanation of its resurrection, we have now...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:51:18 pm by legaiaflame »

Acacia Sgt

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2387
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2019, 06:17:34 pm »
Hey, I only say that's what I think it could have happened. Don't go blaming it already on Kato. The main theory around here (that I also support, btw) is that Lavos, being now part of discarded space-time (it is killed in its own pocket dimension it made itself, separate from the timeline itself), means it gets sent to where all discarded timelines and stuff end up, the DBT. So it wasn't something it did itself. It just happened.

legaiaflame

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Is the Masamune a part of Lavos?
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2019, 07:06:35 pm »
Hey, I only say that's what I think it could have happened. Don't go blaming it already on Kato. The main theory around here (that I also support, btw) is that Lavos, being now part of discarded space-time (it is killed in its own pocket dimension it made itself, separate from the timeline itself), means it gets sent to where all discarded timelines and stuff end up, the DBT. So it wasn't something it did itself. It just happened.

I do blame Kato. He gave no explanation as to how Lavos returned. If Lavos gets killed it shouldn't still be alive; no matter what pocket dimension it's in. And if it is still alive, then we need to know the reasoning behind it. Since, Crono and crew gave some of their lives to ensure a new future. But, we don't even get a thread of logic to back its continued existence, up.

If we as fans have to come up with ridiculous circumstances that make no logical sense to explain its resurrection, that's just bad writing.

That is to say: this one aspect of the story is the only part I dislike about Kato's story in Cross; albeit the most important one.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 07:11:42 pm by legaiaflame »