Author Topic: What if?  (Read 2352 times)

Lt Light Ark

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
What if?
« on: June 30, 2018, 06:09:25 pm »
So, I am new in this forum, sorry if I am doing somthing wrong, first, I am Lt Light Ark and I am not from an English Speaking Country, so why my english may seem awkward or awful.

Anyway, I was always a great fan of Chrono Trigger, where I do even played the Fangames, for me Flames of Eternity is almost a 'canon' of sorts (even when in reality it is not) so, considering how the Enlightened Ones are, considering King Zeal's speech in the end of the game, I asked myself.

Magus did what he ended up doing for Schala.

And...if when Zeal did fall, instead of Janus falling in the gate, Schala instead falls in the gate and Janus is left behind? How do you people believe that the canon would be? Because considering Enlightened One's spirit, one can be sure that their PRINCESS would do something to or try to get her brother back or destroy Lavos.

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2018, 08:12:03 pm »
Hmm, now that's a very interesting scenario.

So, Schala in the Middle Ages (assuming the destination hasn't changed)... personally, I think that changes a lot of things. Ozzie and the Mystics/Fiends would find her, like with Janus, but I very much doubt things will remain the same. Janus and Ozzie ended using each other, something I doubt will happen with Schala instead of her brother there. Heck, depending on just how Ozzie interacts with her, Schala might end up using her pendant to warp away... to where? Who knows.

Now, as to whether she would have the mindset to "fix" what happened... well, not sure on destroying Lavos. Trying to return could be, maybe. Personally, I'm not sure how valid does the characterizations from the fangames can really be used here, but at the end of the day I do see Schala at least trying to find out where she is now at first.

After that... who knows.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

  • Guru of Life Emeritus
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5267
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2018, 02:25:41 am »
Quote
So, I am new in this forum, sorry if I am doing somthing wrong, first, I am Lt Light Ark and I am not from an English Speaking Country, so why my english may seem awkward or awful.

First off, welcome tot he party! Glad to have you here! Chrono Trigger is an amazing game and we love how it brings people together from a variety of different cultures.

As for your scenario... That's a very interesting scenario! We know that after Lavos was punted to the Darkness Beyond Time, he and Schala merged together to become the Dream Devourer (and later the Time Devourer).

(In fact, now that I think of it, I don't think it's ever explained how they ended up there. Simply defeating Lavos shouldn't have shunted into the place where discarded timelines end up. But that's a question for another thread.)

Assuming that it happened to Schala, I would guess the same would have happened to Janus. Holy shit. Can you imagine the Time Devourer with Janus at the wheel instead of Schala?!?! Instead of a composed, quiet young woman in control of her powers, you'd have an angry, trouble child with potentially untrained, incredibly powerful dark magic. I mean, let's be honest, Janus is a messed up kid long before he ended up in the Middle Ages and met the Mystics.

I am thinking that Janus, had he merged with Lavos, would have been a much bigger threat. Where Schala was touched by young Serge as he lay dying (and thus sent a copy-clone of herself), Janus would have sent a copy-clone to finish the job. Janus lacked empathy and that would have been reflected in his efforts to consume space-time as the Time Devourer.

Belthasar may have still created Project Kid to stop the Time Devourer, but I think Janus would have been much more proactive to combat it, and the journey to stop the Time Devourer would have much been much darker. Assuming it would have even been successful.

Do I smell a gaiden / side scenario / alternate story brewing?

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2018, 02:48:05 am »
Assuming that it happened to Schala, I would guess the same would have happened to Janus. Holy shit. Can you imagine the Time Devourer with Janus at the wheel instead of Schala?!?! Instead of a composed, quiet young woman in control of her powers, you'd have an angry, trouble child with potentially untrained, incredibly powerful dark magic. I mean, let's be honest, Janus is a messed up kid long before he ended up in the Middle Ages and met the Mystics.

I am thinking that Janus, had he merged with Lavos, would have been a much bigger threat. Where Schala was touched by young Serge as he lay dying (and thus sent a copy-clone of herself), Janus would have sent a copy-clone to finish the job. Janus lacked empathy and that would have been reflected in his efforts to consume space-time as the Time Devourer.

Belthasar may have still created Project Kid to stop the Time Devourer, but I think Janus would have been much more proactive to combat it, and the journey to stop the Time Devourer would have much been much darker. Assuming it would have even been successful.

Do I smell a gaiden / side scenario / alternate story brewing?

To be fair, would that even happen? As I mentioned, the ramifications are big if it had been Schala the one sent to the Middle Ages instead of Janus. Keep in mind that the changed events at the Ocean Palace only happened because of Crono and the party's interference, alongside Magus. I doubt Schala would go the same path Janus did in the Middle Ages, so I don't think this alternate Schala would be present. Crono and company could still might, if they happen to visit Prehistory again, and still get involved with the Tyrano Lair stuff to find the gate into Antiquity. Even if Janus, like in the original timeline, is present in the Ocean Palace, what likely happens is that he merely replaces his MAgus self as who is the third person warped out by Schala. But this Schala, going by the TTI and TB theories, would soon become a non-factor. Heck, she might be the one instead swallowed by the black hole that swallowed Janus and Melchior at Algetty. Which is about our only proof of the theories, since nothing else could explain why a gate happened and only swallowed them, and at around the same time they time traveled in the original timeline.

Actually, things might even change before that. It's usually assumed Schala used her pendant's power on herself and her mother in the original timeline, hence no Black Omen or anything. But if Schala is the one sent through time... does Queen Zeal gets to rise the Black Omen a timeline earlier?

Hmm... interesting... interesting...
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 02:50:55 am by Acacia Sgt »

Lt Light Ark

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2018, 07:44:53 pm »

First off, welcome tot he party! Glad to have you here! Chrono Trigger is an amazing game and we love how it brings people together from a variety of different cultures.

As for your scenario... That's a very interesting scenario! We know that after Lavos was punted to the Darkness Beyond Time, he and Schala merged together to become the Dream Devourer (and later the Time Devourer).

(In fact, now that I think of it, I don't think it's ever explained how they ended up there. Simply defeating Lavos shouldn't have shunted into the place where discarded timelines end up. But that's a question for another thread.)

Assuming that it happened to Schala, I would guess the same would have happened to Janus. Holy shit. Can you imagine the Time Devourer with Janus at the wheel instead of Schala?!?! Instead of a composed, quiet young woman in control of her powers, you'd have an angry, trouble child with potentially untrained, incredibly powerful dark magic. I mean, let's be honest, Janus is a messed up kid long before he ended up in the Middle Ages and met the Mystics.

I am thinking that Janus, had he merged with Lavos, would have been a much bigger threat. Where Schala was touched by young Serge as he lay dying (and thus sent a copy-clone of herself), Janus would have sent a copy-clone to finish the job. Janus lacked empathy and that would have been reflected in his efforts to consume space-time as the Time Devourer.

Belthasar may have still created Project Kid to stop the Time Devourer, but I think Janus would have been much more proactive to combat it, and the journey to stop the Time Devourer would have much been much darker. Assuming it would have even been successful.

Do I smell a gaiden / side scenario / alternate story brewing?

I think that maybe the only thing that would actually keep Janus at bay would be the fact that his sister is alive and maybe he would see a way to see if she or someone else can take him out?

Magus did all for Schala after all.


To be fair, would that even happen? As I mentioned, the ramifications are big if it had been Schala the one sent to the Middle Ages instead of Janus. Keep in mind that the changed events at the Ocean Palace only happened because of Crono and the party's interference, alongside Magus. I doubt Schala would go the same path Janus did in the Middle Ages, so I don't think this alternate Schala would be present. Crono and company could still might, if they happen to visit Prehistory again, and still get involved with the Tyrano Lair stuff to find the gate into Antiquity. Even if Janus, like in the original timeline, is present in the Ocean Palace, what likely happens is that he merely replaces his Magus self as who is the third person warped out by Schala. But this Schala, going by the TTI and TB theories, would soon become a non-factor. Heck, she might be the one instead swallowed by the black hole that swallowed Janus and Melchior at Algetty. Which is about our only proof of the theories, since nothing else could explain why a gate happened and only swallowed them, and at around the same time they time traveled in the original timeline.

Actually, things might even change before that. It's usually assumed Schala used her pendant's power on herself and her mother in the original timeline, hence no Black Omen or anything. But if Schala is the one sent through time... does Queen Zeal gets to rise the Black Omen a timeline earlier?

Hmm... interesting... interesting...


I am pretty sure Schala could tell that the Black Omen is the Ocean Palace, after all Magus could say that the Black Omen was the Ocean Palace in the game (and Schala worked more on the Mammon Machine, so I am pretty sure she knows the Ocean Palace fairly well.)

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2018, 10:31:17 pm »
I am pretty sure Schala could tell that the Black Omen is the Ocean Palace, after all Magus could say that the Black Omen was the Ocean Palace in the game (and Schala worked more on the Mammon Machine, so I am pretty sure she knows the Ocean Palace fairly well.)

Hmm, personally, I'm not so sure she could. Magus could tell since they were watching it actually appear, above where he knew where the Ocean Palace was. So it wasn't a hard deduction.

Meanwhile, despite still being Zealean aesthetically, even Melchior back in 1000AD can't tell what the Omen is or who built it. So I'd say that Schala likewise wouldn't know. Keep in mind that the Omen doesn't look like the Palace, either. Even if Schala knew how the Palace looked externally, the Omen doesn't look like that.

Chances are, that if the Omen does rises since there was no one to stop Queen Zeal, Schala would see it once she arrives in 580~ AD, and like Melchior, be puzzled as to what it is.

EgyLynx

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 298
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2018, 06:55:29 am »
I am pretty sure Schala could tell that the Black Omen is the Ocean Palace, after all Magus could say that the Black Omen was the Ocean Palace in the game (and Schala worked more on the Mammon Machine, so I am pretty sure she knows the Ocean Palace fairly well.)

Hmm, personally, I'm not so sure she could. Magus could tell since they were watching it actually appear, above where he knew where the Ocean Palace was. So it wasn't a hard deduction.

Meanwhile, despite still being Zealean aesthetically, even Melchior back in 1000AD can't tell what the Omen is or who built it. So I'd say that Schala likewise wouldn't know. Keep in mind that the Omen doesn't look like the Palace, either. Even if Schala knew how the Palace looked externally, the Omen doesn't look like that.

Chances are, that if the Omen does rises since there was no one to stop Queen Zeal, Schala would see it once she arrives in 580~ AD, and like Melchior, be puzzled as to what it is.
Acacia Sgt, i agree you. But... If Schala at player person, are it so "dark" at magic?
Or are it more light?

Anyway, why just 3 person group? why not 4? Or 8 all? Well ... thats is ... you know?

chrono.source

  • Architect of Kajar
  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 264
  • Chrono Source (CT Prequel) Creator
    • View Profile
    • Chrono Source - A Chrono Trigger Prequel
Re: What if?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2018, 11:14:35 am »
Interesting situation. Now say Janus did get absorbed into Lavos' being, can we assume Janus was mature enough in mind and abilities to create a clone of himself to send and aid Serge? Given Janus' lack of experience it may be possible that he could not resist as well as Schala and become completely engulfed instead of a visible host atop the devourerer's body? Given that scenario the devourer might have also taken Janus' immaturity and projected it outwards, creating this overpowered insane being with the mind of a child.

Now some have theorized that Schala's consciousness while being merged with Lavos is what the entity actually was. To what end would Janus' consciousness have as the entity? Irrational self-destruction? Something more diabolical than time gates?

I digress. Given Schala's appearance in the Middle Ages would have an interesting spin on the fate of Guardia indeed. What would Ozzie's intentions be with an innocent magic wielding outsider? Would their influence cause a deformation in her, as it did in Janus? Would she completely resist and be killed/contained/disposed of? The Mystics would definitely have not had the upper hand in the war again Guardia. Given this state of affairs Lavos would not have been summoned at this point either which would completely rewrite the future. Without Lavos being disturbed at this point in time, would it have awoken again in 1999AD? or perhaps earlier given that it had a longer rest period?

Circling back to The Serge references without Kid/Schala. Would Guile cease to exist and an alter ego of Schala take his place?? Or would there be a Janus/Guile filled world which ends up corrupting time/space due to the same person existing in the same place?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 01:26:31 pm by chrono.source »

EgyLynx

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 298
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 12:10:56 pm »
Ah you think CC, i think CT...

Anyway...

Janus=Guile?
Thihi... youre meen at Guile from ct , of course...

ThatGuy

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2018, 01:10:03 pm »
Let's see...

In the Middle Ages, Schala would have never joined Ozzie and the likes. She was older, as well, and powerful. Ozzie and the Mystics wouldn't have exerted control over her. She would have likely left, without harming them too much, if it all, and gone on her own.

Schala, without her mother pushing her around, would probably feel very alone and aimless. She would be torn to pieces by sorrow for, well, everything, and wandered. Oh sure, if a plot needed it, she could find a new calling. But really, I see her living alone, as a hermit of sorts, that maybe could have made her like, a side quest giving type of character or simply a random mysterious mention (the old lady with strange powers who healed people but disappeared from that cave in the lonely woods of whatever, type of thing)... not unlike Belthasar the first time you see him.

And who knows, maybe, like Belthasar's second appearance (kinda), she could have been the one to charge up Marle's pendant so they could get back to Zeal, something like that. Upgrading her to something like Melchior's status. Or any of the Gurus I guess.

Meanwhile, the Mystics still would have gone to war with the humans, that clash seems inevitable, but it also seems it would have taken much longer to build power. They had Magus to rally around, which surely served as a force of unification (I understand Magus was somewhat based on Muhammed the prophet, erm, warlord). Without him, it wouldn't have happened at that juncture.

But then, perhaps without that unifying force, the Mystics would never have unified that way. Sometimes a single person in history can radically change things. Maybe the Mystics would have remained fractured (I'm just assuming they were for the time being) and disorganized. This opens up near infinite possibilities for their progression. We don't know much anything about their society, or lack thereof, from the game, so it's all guesswork.

Which leaves Guardia. Without the war in 600, would they have done better or worse? Again, don't know. The way could have been one of those that forever altered their course from moving toward greatness, to a lesser level of achievement. Think what China could have been had it not destroyed its own navy in the... early 1500s I think.

Or, perhaps the war against the Mystics is what rallied the various human powers, from Porre (for the time being), to Truce to even Choras. Maybe without the war with the Mystics, humanity wouldn't have been ushered into such an era of peace, but the infighting would have continued, and the height achieved by 1000 wouldn't have been so good. Again, not enough information to venture a decent guess.

Back in 12000, I see Janus being a sullen little grudge-holding kid forever. I mean, he was in 600, why not then? In the Lavos timeline, he probably lived out his life unhappily and that was that. (Like, apparently, Schala did? Though I don't know that I buy that.) But in the Crono timeline, when Dalton shows up, I see Janus either being used by him (unlikely unless coerced), which would eventually backfire on Dalton... or Janus confronting and likely immediately killing Dalton. (Recall that Janus was said to be more powerful than Schala.) Unless the Golem Boss was somehow able to defeat Janus. Either way, no one would have been leaving that era.

One consequence: Dalton would never have been thrown to 1000 era and done that stupid-ass Porre militant thing. The other reverberations... Well, presumably, as civilization restarted in 12000, it would have trudged along either way. The small differences echoing from that butterfly effect, so long ago? Yikes, could be nothing, could be everything.

Or, maybe Dalton summoned the Golem Boss, Janus whooped its ass, and Dalton still got sucked into the thing to do that retarded Porre takeover plot line, because it was destined to happen. Since we like fate and dreams and destiny and all that in JRPGs. Who knows.

As for Crono and co... Well... their arc could have remained if they'd learned from old-lady-Schala in 600 that Lavos was a creature of blah-blah-fill-in-some-details. The entity (which I maintain was actually Schala, so figure THAT part of the story out) would have had to send them on a very different path via timegates to get them back to Zeal after visiting 2300 and learning of Lavos's apocalypse... That, once again, can go in near infinite directions. Eventually they'd have to be lead back to Zeal, but how? I dunno, figure it out, entity.

Or they just never did anything and became crazy people warning of an apocalypse in 999 years, which was too coincidental a number if anything else, possibly spawning a small cult that turned into a religion... and in any event, never saved the future.

Or Lucca eventually invented a time machine and they went on their adventure regardless, and still saved the future, but the story arc was lame and Chrono Trigger sales never would have been that great, which reaches into our universe, and this very forum would never have existed because none of us would be compelled to have this discussion.

Hmmm, what else..? That covers everyone, does it not?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 01:13:38 pm by ThatGuy »

ThatGuy

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2018, 01:15:16 pm »
Damn, that was fun, thanks to the OP for such an interesting question!

ThatGuy

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2018, 02:25:29 pm »
Having another thought here...

If my contention is correct, that Schala was the entity that threw Crono and co. into their adventure by opening up the gates, well, if she'd been sent to 600AD and never merged with Lavos in order to do so, the world would have ended when Lavos erupted, Crono and co. would never have known what was coming in 999 years, and that'd be that.

Hell, it might have even been worse if, say, Janus's sullen little self merged with Lavos instead. Can you imagine.

Or maybe Schala could have gone the Magus route, sort of, and attempted to confront Lavos in 600AD, and... who knows. Merged with him anyway and still opened the gates as I contend she did. That'd be an interesting story line- instead of going against Magus, Crono and Co. attempt to stop Schala from summoning Lavos, as they'd think she did, and instead of Schala being thrown back to 12000BC, she merged with him.

Which would mean the party never encountered the "prophet" and would have had an easier time, overall, in Zeal. But then they'd never have found Epoch, or more likely, have found it through different means. They'd still have charged the pendant, etc.

But! What if, instead, Schala had been thrown back to 12000BC. That'd be interesting! So many directions. She could have naively gone straight to the queen and attempted to stop her, and surely failed. Or maybe, having grown older and wiser, she'd hatch her own scheme to stop the Zeal from ruining everything. How might that have gone? Hmmm...

How about this: Schala hatches a scheme, maybe it involves a guru or three, to stop Lavos, not unlike Magus did when he so pathetically failed right before Crono died. Schala's scheme also fails, she merges with Lavos as her older self instead of the old way in the Ocean palace... and in the end, nothing was all that different, except no Magus in 600AD.

And maybe in doing so she saves Janus, so instead of Magus joining your party after Crono goes poof, young Janus joins. And still doesn't change Frog back, because he's a dick.


Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2018, 09:46:39 pm »
Schala, post-merge with Lavos, as the one opening the gates? I doubt it much. Considering the general lack of predestination paradox the Chrono games use, the gates open before she merges with Lavos. Not even as a retroactive thing.

ThatGuy

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2018, 11:55:30 pm »
I go more into it in other threads, but basically, if you notice that during the final battle with Lavos, he, and the party, seem to be existing in all time periods... then he is, in a way, outside of the normal flow of time. Schala could merge at any point, and then exist in all these time periods.

I go into it in these threads:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=12575.msg224842#msg224842

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=12611.msg225201#msg225201

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=12608.msg225194#msg225194

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=12531.msg224825#msg224825

The idea is also mentioned here, second to last paragraph:

http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Entity

...
...
Can you tell I'm a fan of this theory?

Anyway, let's start a new thread on it if you wish to discuss so we don't hijack this one.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 12:37:36 am by ThatGuy »

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: What if?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2018, 12:05:08 am »
Seem, but I don't think it's stated quite exactly what's up with that.

I still stand it goes against the nature of time travel as shown in the game. Schala wouldn't merge with Lavos until Lavos itself is defeated. We can't have a Dream Devourer until both Schala AND Lavos are sent to the DBT, not before.

It's the same way the Black Omen isn't already there when the game begins, or 2300 AD is still ruined even if Lavos is going to eventually be defeated, or the Moon Stone isn't already in the Sun Keep being charged before Son of Sun is defeated. Same applies for the existence of the Dream Devourer.