Author Topic: Chrono Cross  (Read 7195 times)

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2018, 10:37:15 pm »
óbut I just can't see Dalton being very upset about the fall of Zeal, since it was the fall of Zeal that allowed him to be king in the first place. I would think the loss of possible immortality would be a much bigger deal, but he never even mentions that. So the only legitimate gripe he has is the loss of his crown.

Yes, the fall of Zeal gave him the chance to start his own, but was more like opportunism. Not to mention, some of what he says applies, or can apply as well, to the Kingdom of Zeal itself, not the kingdom he tried to start.

He might not know Crono died, but he would know that Crono wasn't one of the people taken aboard the Blackbird, who subsequently caused his downfall. Nevertheless, he specifically calls out Crono by name, even if another party member is in the lead:

So to me, the whole thing is a big plot hole. Dalton blames his only legitimate gripe on the only guy (besides Magus) who literally couldn't have had anything to do with it. Since it's so poorly explained, that's why I have to wonder if "Dalton was behind it" was the original intent, or if it's just a wink to a prominent fan theory without actually putting any effort into making the theory work.

Since the people in the Ocean Palace are likely to not be, other than Crono, the same people during the first visit to Zeal, it wouldn't be hard to deduce the groups is larger than jsut three. Crono could be singled out since it can be concluded that he's the leader. So Dalton calling out to Crono even if he's not in the party doesn't mean it has to be a direct address. Can also be in the likes of "deliver this meesage to your leader".

As I mentioned, he can also be included the original Zeal kingdom, something he'd know Crono was present for. Well, I don't know. Could be a nod to the theory, could've been the original plan as well. Unless there's something in some article we haven't examined yet.

Beach Bum

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2018, 02:27:52 am »
Look, Dalton's hatred towards Crono & co was an anomaly created by the new timeline they created when visiting Zeal. If that's the case, we must simply look at what's different in the Lavos timeline. Although we don't know for certain, I think we can be safe to assume that:

- Without a prophet, Dalton was Zeal's right hand man and enforcer, going with her to the depths of the Ocean Palace
- He perished there when Lavos woke up

In the keystone timeline, the delay caused by him having to battle Crono & co relieved him of the pressure to stand beside the queen, and gave him time to think things through. Sensing Lavos' power and the danger that comes with it, he realized this could spell disaster and wisely fucked off to see what was going to happen from a safe distance.

With all of Zeal at the bottom of the sea, it left him as the highest ranking Enlightened One and gave him the opportunity to take power. If not for the interference of Crono's buddies and with Dalton in power, there might not have been a Guardia at all. He could have ruled the world. More than that, he could have manipulated different time periods. With both the Blackbird and the Epoch at his disposal, he would've been nigh unstoppable.

All of that however was taken from him when they defeated Dalton. Isn't that more than enough motive for revenge?

Also, we have to take into account that Dalton didn't simply brainwash all of Porre. He simply sparked the flames of war that already existed there somewhere. Porre seized their opportunity and accepted his bid to become the world superpower.

Razig

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2018, 01:52:08 pm »
All of that however was taken from him when they defeated Dalton. Isn't that more than enough motive for revenge?

Maybe... But the fact remains that the party wasn't really out to stop Dalton. They only got involved because he falsely imprisoned them and stole their property. At the end of the day, he has nobody to blame but himself.

And as I've said, he can't legitimately be angry about losing Zeal AND his crown. It has to be one or the other, since the loss of Zeal was the very thing that enabled him to take power. Even if he mistakenly blames the party for Zeal's fall, it was a GOOD thing for him. (Except for the loss of potential immortality, but he doesn't list that as one of his grievances.)

Okay, so maybe he doesn't see it that way, because he's obviously deranged. But there's also the problem of where to assign the blame. Who was in the party that defeated him? The game doesn't provide a canon answer. It's actually the first time that the game doesn't force anyone into your party and you have total control over your team composition. Since it could have been anybody, why does Dalton specifically choose Present Guardia as his target? Why not Middle Ages Guardia, or Ioka Village?

I think Acacia Sgt's idea that Dalton simply blames the entire group as a whole, and calls out Crono as its ringleader despite him not being on the Blackbird, is the best one I've heard. It makes some assumptions about what Dalton could know, but apparently he's omniscient anyway. How else could he even know Guardia exists?
(You can't escape the plot holes, even when you're being generous.) :P

But there's also the problem of Dalton literally warning his enemies about his plans. How could those plans even get off the ground if Guardia knew exactly what to watch out for?


Also, we have to take into account that Dalton didn't simply brainwash all of Porre. He simply sparked the flames of war that already existed there somewhere. Porre seized their opportunity and accepted his bid to become the world superpower.

Is there anything in either game that indicates Porre had some kind of pre-existing animosity toward Guardia?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 01:55:12 pm by Razig »

Beach Bum

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2018, 02:13:28 pm »
All of that however was taken from him when they defeated Dalton. Isn't that more than enough motive for revenge?

Maybe... But the fact remains that the party wasn't really out to stop Dalton. They only got involved because he falsely imprisoned them and stole their property. At the end of the day, he has nobody to blame but himself.

And as I've said, he can't legitimately be angry about losing Zeal AND his crown. It has to be one or the other, since the loss of Zeal was the very thing that enabled him to take power. Even if he mistakenly blames the party for Zeal's fall, it was a GOOD thing for him. (Except for the loss of potential immortality, but he doesn't list that as one of his grievances.)

Okay, so maybe he doesn't see it that way, because he's obviously deranged. But there's also the problem of where to assign the blame. Who was in the party that defeated him? The game doesn't provide a canon answer. It's actually the first time that the game doesn't force anyone into your party and you have total control over your team composition. Since it could have been anybody, why does Dalton specifically choose Present Guardia as his target? Why not Middle Ages Guardia, or Ioka Village?

I think Acacia Sgt's idea that Dalton simply blames the entire group as a whole, and calls out Crono as its ringleader despite him not being on the Blackbird, is the best one I've heard. It makes some assumptions about what Dalton could know, but apparently he's omniscient anyway. How else could he even know Guardia exists?
(You can't escape the plot holes, even when you're being generous.) :P

But there's also the problem of Dalton literally warning his enemies about his plans. How could those plans even get off the ground if Guardia knew exactly what to watch out for?


Also, we have to take into account that Dalton didn't simply brainwash all of Porre. He simply sparked the flames of war that already existed there somewhere. Porre seized their opportunity and accepted his bid to become the world superpower.

Is there anything in either game that indicates Porre had some kind of pre-existing animosity toward Guardia?

You know they would have attempted to stop Dalton either way, even if he hadn't attacked them. His reasons for imprisoning them were legit: There's no way they would let a tyrant like him run free, especially if his reign was an anomaly caused by their meddling in the timeline.

I do think he blames the entire group, and he knew Crono was the leader. We don't know just how much he learned from his time in the Dimensional Vortex. He probably accessed and observed various different time periods.

As for warning them, it wouldn't have mattered if the seeds of hatred were already implanted in Porre somewhere. No, we don't see clear evidence of this in either of the games, but if Porre truly desired peace with Guardia, Dalton wouldn't have been able to rally them. Porre became a superpower in such a short amount of time. I don't think Guardia could have stopped them even if they knew what was going to go down.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2018, 03:03:13 pm »
Regarding Dalton blurting out his plan... well, it's hard to say due to the nature of the Dimensional Vortexes. They open up after Lavos's defeat, but we can only access them before. From a temporal standpoint, that's not possible... unless we assume that when we load the now cleared save file, we are taking control of past versions of the party, or those from an alternate time line where the vortexes opened up earlier, or something.

The same could be said for the Magus we meet before the Dream Devourer fight. He comes from a party that already beat Lavos, but the party that he meets hasn't.

So perhaps the party that meets Dalton is simply unable to divulge what they learned because TTI/TB/other-theories-stuff, or we can assume Dalton was stopped because of that screw-up... in the time lines where they meet him, and both RD and CC happen in timelines where they didn't entered the Vortexes.

Eh... time travel... :roll: