Author Topic: Chrono Cross  (Read 2528 times)

ZeaLitY

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2018, 11:41:57 pm »
We had an agenda to push. Part of the fun of making a single set of canon, with internal consistency across time travel rules and such, was incorporating Chrono Cross and its dimensional phenomena. To ostracize the game, well, that would stop us from having a unified Chrono corpus. I've backed way off that these days, partly because I can't stand it when trash gets defended (not saying Cross is). Look no further than the apologism from Star Wars fans over TFA and TLJ; you'll cringe inside. Duty to the truth has overruled what used to be a duty to an exalted Chrono fandom.

kolt54321

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2018, 12:04:55 am »
We had an agenda to push. Part of the fun of making a single set of canon, with internal consistency across time travel rules and such, was incorporating Chrono Cross and its dimensional phenomena. To ostracize the game, well, that would stop us from having a unified Chrono corpus. I've backed way off that these days, partly because I can't stand it when trash gets defended (not saying Cross is). Look no further than the apologism from Star Wars fans over TFA and TLJ; you'll cringe inside. Duty to the truth has overruled what used to be a duty to an exalted Chrono fandom.

People have been fair here. Both fair praise and fair criticism that were spot on.

But if you've spent time on other forums, there is a wide audience of "Cross is trash, it should have never been made". Which is fine - everyone is entitled to their opinions. But it's a bit interesting to me that people are still willing to judge a game on what is was never meant to be - a direct Trigger sequel.

I'm actually pretty happy with the consensus here so far (not that it matters, ha). People are honest about their experiences, and while mine felt a bit different, so what? I can't explain why I felt so connected with everything that went on, considering the on-paper qualities, some of which were good, some not.

But to have the online consensus that it's a disastrous monstrosity... not sure if I'll ever be able to see where that's coming from. I can pick needles with Chrono Trigger (childish humor that made the tone too light, character stereotypes, Dalton segments being lame, etc.), but I know so many people found it their holy grail. I'm not going to take away from that - it doesn't happen often enough.

I'm not a Star Wars fan. But if that series had something comparable to the NPC dialogue, vivid, hand-drawn backgrounds, and music, I wouldn't blame them much for being so rabid about it.

Anyway, it's enough I'm so over-the-top satisfied with this game. Asking for another is kind of testing my luck.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 12:06:36 am by kolt54321 »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2018, 01:13:33 am »
J! Welcome back.

Thank you!

There's one question that's still on the table though - how on earth, with all its flaws, did Chrono Cross receive 10's and praise across the board[...?]

Speaking of Star Wars again, I did the same thing with Phantom Menace. I gave it an A+ when it came out. Looking back, that grade was more a reflection of my excitement for the original trilogy than it was for Phantom Menace itself. Chrono Trigger was such a great game that people couldn't wait to validate it by praising its successor, much as people sometimes validate a parent by praising their children.

I will never forget how I felt when I first played this game. It makes me glad to hear that people used to praise it, though blind praise is never good. I think the hate now is more bandwagon than the praise that used to come with it, but who knows. I'm definitely biased.

Yeah, hating on Chrono Cross, or casually dismissing it, was always the norm. The Chrono Compendium was an exception, and it's interesting to see how much of that support has since evaporated. I think the game is very decent, very playable. By no means bad. And I love how ambitious and different it was. There are many fair criticisms to make of it, but that's like America: still a pretty cool place despite all the bullshit.

Somehow, even though it's 20 years old, the fact the consensus changed makes me sad.

If there's one thing I would share with people, above all else, it's: If you like something, own that! Be proud of it. Haters may hate, but it doesn't matter. Don't let your preferences hinge on popular consensus. The world needs more differences, more individuality. Be yourself, always! (Just so long as that doesn't morph into an excuse to be a dick to others.)


Something I'd never really considered until now: Trigger was a huge team effort by multiple writers, while Cross was a one-man show (or at least it seems that way to me—Kato gets all the credit/blame and no one else is ever mentioned).

I also get the feeling that Kato didn't have to answer to anyone during development.

I don't know if this is actually the case, but if it is then it could explain a lot. Artistic visionaries aren't necessarily the strongest directors. They often benefit from the collaboration of other people in their work. Think Kurt Vonnegut: at his best when he had a strong editor who intruded on Vonnegut's native judgment.


Part of the fun of making a single set of canon, with internal consistency across time travel rules and such, was incorporating Chrono Cross and its dimensional phenomena.

An excellent point.

And, if I may, had we not defended Chrono Cross, it would have tarnished the legitimacy of our entire mission here. To the extent this website is predicated upon the excellence of the series, what would say about us if part of that series weren't so excellent?

(Answer: Diddly squat, but human emotions are fickle and insecure.)


But if you've spent time on other forums, there is a wide audience of "Cross is trash, it should have never been made". Which is fine - everyone is entitled to their opinions. But it's a bit interesting to me that people are still willing to judge a game on what is was never meant to be - a direct Trigger sequel.

I'm actually pretty happy with the consensus here so far (not that it matters, ha). People are honest about their experiences, and while mine felt a bit different, so what? I can't explain why I felt so connected with everything that went on, considering the on-paper qualities, some of which were good, some not.

It's not hard to love Chrono Cross at all! With the right mindset / personality / expectations / reference points / etc., it's a great game.

But to have the online consensus that it's a disastrous monstrosity... not sure if I'll ever be able to see where that's coming from.

Most human hatred comes from pathetic places. When you really dig down deep, the people who actively hate Chrono Cross do so for largely pathetic reasons that rarely have anything to do with the game itself.

(Dalton segments being lame, etc.)

Dalton is so lame! He could have been so much better! Queen Zeal was actually a little bit disappointing too. In the best possible timeline, these two characters would have been a lot more fleshed out and interesting.


Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2018, 01:34:28 am »
Quote
Dalton is so lame! He could have been so much better! Queen Zeal was actually a little bit disappointing too. In the best possible timeline, these two characters would have been a lot more fleshed out and interesting.

But - but - but... Dalton destroyed Guardia as an act of petty revenge! He corrupted the Masamune and it's very possible he was instrumental in killing/offing Crono and Marle.

It may have happened off screen, but Dalton was the unseen BAMF we all knew he had within him (once got that indigestion issue sorted out and stopped with the burps).

kolt54321

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2018, 01:57:21 am »
Quote
Dalton is so lame! He could have been so much better! Queen Zeal was actually a little bit disappointing too. In the best possible timeline, these two characters would have been a lot more fleshed out and interesting.

But - but - but... Dalton destroyed Guardia as an act of petty revenge! He corrupted the Masamune and it's very possible he was instrumental in killing/offing Crono and Marle.

It may have happened off screen, but Dalton was the unseen BAMF we all knew he had within him (once got that indigestion issue sorted out and stopped with the burps).

I think that award goes to the Doppel Doll that fooled Lavos. He (it?) doesn't get enough credit.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2018, 02:33:21 am »
That's something I'd like a new game to cover, though. A re-sprited, shorter-haired, badass-uniformed, military generalissimo Dalton going full nutter mode on Guardia. He was such a comic relief, but this guy was the commander in chief of the armed forces of the Kingdom of Zeal. He was a straight up Enlightened One. You know, the people who raised an isle into the sky, tamed the wild power of magic, and invaded the realm of dreams? I completely understand how he could eradicate a little laughable rump kingdom—he put the willpower of the enlightened into his mission. Zeal was a race of Chrono Triggers unto themselves; impinging upon the domain of the divine was kind of their thing, man. The damn thing needs to be shown, with full weight, in a game.

There's a reason Queen Zeal was the second to last boss; that Gaspar's tenant was the God of War; that Melchior created the greatest sword to ever exist; that Belthasar pulled off Project Kid; that Schala nearly destroyed the universe; that Magus was the badass we all know and love. You don't fuck with the Enlightened Ones. This is what I want to see exemplified in Dalton's single-minded quest for revenge. Give a citizen of Zeal enough time and resources, and they will alter history forever.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 02:37:03 am by ZeaLitY »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2018, 03:02:46 am »
I don't dispute the vast majority of what you just said, but DALTON'S GLORIOUS HAIR IS HIS MOST AWESOME QUALITY!!!

skylark

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2018, 05:26:26 am »
Well, from Zeality's musings, it seems that my reimagining of my fanfic OC is living up to his potential.

That's good. :kamina

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2018, 12:33:52 pm »
You know... I would certianly not mind a game centered on how Dalton turned Porre into a military power and conquered Guardia. Even if that means having a Villain Protagonist... it's just so interesting of a premise.

It'd also cover stuff like the role General Viper, Radius, Garai, Zappa, etc. had as well. They too participated in the war, as well. Their prescence is implied to be very imporant, if FATE allowed them to leave El Nido, despite its policy to not let El Nido stuff affect the outside world. Well, it helps that the Viper Clan predates El Nido's creation, from a temporal point of view, so the Viper Clan likely did participated in the original Fall of Guardia (in the ElNido-less timeline) as well, hence FATE allowing that so history keeps its previous course.

In any case... yeah, it'd be an interesting thing...

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2018, 01:23:16 pm »
I was discussing with my husb about how that setting would end up looking, a B-villain from a technologically and magically advanced time picking a random RPG village to turn into an empire with limited resources and a blatantly evil social movement

...and we realized that's the entire plot of Mother 3.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2018, 06:46:21 pm »
...and we realized that's the entire plot of Mother 3.

Oh great, now I'm imagining some top-ranking elite Porrean squadron... naming themsleves the "Daltonites" and wearing suits in the shape of the actual Daltonite CT enemies.  :cry: :lol: :roll:

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2018, 08:40:52 pm »
Why would the Acacia Dragoons have participated in the Fall of Guardia? Weren't Porre and they enemies? It would also seem a bit overkill for Guardia, military power wise.

So when do you think Porre made its spurt in technological advance? When did they go from pretty much having no military force to a full blown superpower consisting of squadrons of musket-wearing soldiers? And what exactly did this entail?

On the flip side of that coin, Dalton still seemed very much interested in powerful artifacts, magical in nature or no, such as the Masamune. I always imagined that it was Dalton's deep hatred that corrupted the Masamune into its demonic form, after which he handed it to Lynx who lured him in with promises of the Frozen Flame.

Razig

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2018, 08:41:37 pm »
I've long wondered if Dalton being the force "outside of the original flow of history" that militarized Porre was the plan all along, or if it's simply ascended fanon.

We have to accept it as canon now, but I still find it strange. Why would Dalton have a beef against Guardia? Your party during the Blackbird sequence (where you "robbed" him of his kingdom) isn't fixed; you can have as few as one Guardian on your team. And if that Guardian is Frog, then Dalton has no reason at all to hate present-day Guardia.

Furthermore, he seems to be angry at Crono in particular, but Crono was dead during that whole sequence. Maybe he blames Crono for the Ocean Palace disaster, but that was what made Dalton's rule possible in the first place!

I don't doubt that Dalton had the means to militarize Porre. Despite him being comic relief for the most part, he was obviously a VIP in Zeal which would seem to indicate a high level of ability, plus he apparently had a military background. I just doubt his motive.

So when do you think Porre made its spurt in technological advance? When did they go from pretty much having no military force to a full blown superpower consisting of squadrons of musket-wearing soldiers? And what exactly did this entail?

It was mentioned a few times that Porre was reverse-engineering ancient technology of a lost civilization (presumably Zeal). It could be that Dalton showed them where to find it.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 08:53:45 pm by Razig »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2018, 09:14:16 pm »
Why would the Acacia Dragoons have participated in the Fall of Guardia? Weren't Porre and they enemies? It would also seem a bit overkill for Guardia, military power wise.

The Dragoons and Porre are only enemies when the latter shows its intent to invade El Nido to search for the Frozen Flame. It's likely relations weren't hostile before that. Heck, Karsh mentions General Viper served in the army and was where he was promoted to General, after the Fall. It likely means Porre's, unless you mean it was Guardia who called the Dragoons for help, but personally, it's very unlikely.

So when do you think Porre made its spurt in technological advance? When did they go from pretty much having no military force to a full blown superpower consisting of squadrons of musket-wearing soldiers? And what exactly did this entail?

It's possible it could happen long before 1000 AD. Once you consider timeline changes like Fiona's Forest appearing, or El Nido's prescence, it's hard to deduce. Perhaps there were already signs in the original CT timeline, but since 1000 AD Porre in the game doesn't have much in the way of relevance, outside of stuff like the recovering the Moon Stone from the mayor, it's possible it wasn't simply shown in CT. For all we know, the Porrean mayor when he was still greedy he could've also turned Porre into what it is in CC, without the stuff that would explicitely be pinned to Dalton. Who knows.

We have to accept it as canon now, but I still find it strange. Why would Dalton have a beef against Guardia? Your party during the Blackbird sequence (where you "robbed" him of his kingdom) isn't fixed; you can have as few as one Guardian on your team. And if that Guardian is Frog, then Dalton has no reason at all to hate present-day Guardia.

Furthermore, he seems to be angry at Crono in particular, but Crono was dead during that whole sequence. Maybe he blames Crono for the Ocean Palace disaster, but that was what made Dalton's rule possible in the first place!

I don't doubt that Dalton had the means to militarize Porre. Despite him being comic relief for the most part, he was obviously a VIP in Zeal which would seem to indicate a high level of ability, plus he apparently had a military background. I just doubt his motive.

Eye for an Eye, perhaps? From his perspective, it wouldn't be hard to pin Crono and company as the ones who made things go south at the Ocean Palace. He fled before the whole thing happened, after all, so he perhaps thought they did disrupted things, and so, Zeal went bye-bye. Thinking they being the ones who brought Zeal to an end wouldn't be that farfetched. And of course, the whole "Reform Zeal in my image but those same guys stopped that too" also had a hand to that.

Also, did he even learned Crono died? We now Crono never leaves the party before that point, but he wouldn't know. As for knowing of Guardia and knowing he should attack that... well, perhaps the protagonists don't constantly change their party on the field  like we may do in teh game (and likely can't, anyway, considering the limitations), so perhaps when the whole thing happened, it was something like the 1000AD trio, so once he learns of Guardia, he knows it's something he can apply his revenge on. Who knows.

Razig

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Re: Chrono Cross
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2018, 10:17:24 pm »
Eye for an Eye, perhaps? From his perspective, it wouldn't be hard to pin Crono and company as the ones who made things go south at the Ocean Palace. He fled before the whole thing happened, after all, so he perhaps thought they did disrupted things, and so, Zeal went bye-bye. Thinking they being the ones who brought Zeal to an end wouldn't be that farfetched. And of course, the whole "Reform Zeal in my image but those same guys stopped that too" also had a hand to that.

His dialogue tries to play this up—

Quote from: Dalton
If it weren't for you, I'd have been the ruler
of an age all my own!

You robbed me of everything I'd worked so hard for!
My wealth, my home, my loyal underlings...
You took it all away!
It's unforgivable!

So come on! Have a taste of the suffering I've
endured because of you!

—but I just can't see Dalton being very upset about the fall of Zeal, since it was the fall of Zeal that allowed him to be king in the first place. I would think the loss of possible immortality would be a much bigger deal, but he never even mentions that. So the only legitimate gripe he has is the loss of his crown.

Also, did he even learned Crono died? We now Crono never leaves the party before that point, but he wouldn't know. As for knowing of Guardia and knowing he should attack that... well, perhaps the protagonists don't constantly change their party on the field  like we may do in teh game (and likely can't, anyway, considering the limitations), so perhaps when the whole thing happened, it was something like the 1000AD trio, so once he learns of Guardia, he knows it's something he can apply his revenge on. Who knows.

He might not know Crono died, but he would know that Crono wasn't one of the people taken aboard the Blackbird, who subsequently caused his downfall. Nevertheless, he specifically calls out Crono by name, even if another party member is in the lead:

Quote from: Dalton
Hmph, I think that's enough for today.
But don't you dare think this is settled!
Just you wait, Crono!

I'll raise the greatest army the world has ever seen in
Porre, and use it to wipe your pitiful little kingdom off
the map!

So to me, the whole thing is a big plot hole. Dalton blames his only legitimate gripe on the only guy (besides Magus) who literally couldn't have had anything to do with it. Since it's so poorly explained, that's why I have to wonder if "Dalton was behind it" was the original intent, or if it's just a wink to a prominent fan theory without actually putting any effort into making the theory work.