Author Topic: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?  (Read 989 times)

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« on: April 16, 2018, 02:56:27 am »
So on a whim I was responding to the oldest thread in the Chrono Trigger Analysis - Characters, Plots, and Themes section regarding Schala and why we don't see her look for Janus/Magus after the events of Chrono Cross, and yet she diligently vows to seek Serge.

What's up with that, amiright?

Despite that, I realized something... First, let me refresh your memory of the Dream Devourer ending of Chrono Trigger DS.

In this ending, if you recall, the party arrives to confront the Dream Devourer and finds Schala has already succumbed to despair and is being attacked by a version of Magus from sometime after the events of Chrono Trigger. He is attempting to free Schala by attacking it and fails miserably. Once he is blasted away, the party engages the Dream Devourer in battle...

...and eventually they, too, lose the battle in an out-of-battle 1-hit TKO. But the battle was apparently enough to free Schala's mind for a moment. Schala recognizes her plight and sends the heroes away, and future-Magus crawls back onto the scene to once again attempt to free Schala. He is ultimately left heartbroken as Schala tells him that his efforts are ultimately impossible. As the Time Devourer, she is simply too powerful, and she warns that the will of Lavos will ultimately consume her entire being. She pleads with Magus, and when he proves unrelenting, she sends him away via a solid black gate.

Here, Magus muses to himself:

Quote
"So, you mean to say that no matter how
hard I strive - no matter how strong I grow - there
is nothing I might do to save you?
What purpose, then, does this existence serve?
Hmph. If this is to be the way of things,
then let me abandon all that was and fade away as well.
Should a part of me somehow even then remain,
then perhaps that will be the birth of something
new - something with greater meaning than all this."

Magus, now an amnesiac, wakes up in a forest and recognizes that, deep down, there was something he still had to do. And off he goes to try and remember what that was... This may or may not have intended for him to become Guile, which was the original intent in the early stages of Chrono Cross. Despite the fact that I hate this idea with a passion, it's likely the closest version to truth.

But still... does this then mean that Magus is part of Balthasar's Project Kid?

If you remember, Balthsar arrives in the new 2300AD due to the fact that Crono and company killed Lavos and the apocalypse was prevented. Using the technology of this new era, he became aware of Schala's plight and put a plan into motion to rescue. A very convoluted plan involving Chronopolis, the Mother AI-turned-FATE AI, and a multitude of events that involved:

-El Nido being created,
-Thus Serge is eventually born,
-Thus Serge is eventually attacked by a panther-demon,
-Thus Serge is rescued by Schala and Kid is created,
-Thus the timeline is split in two,
-Thus Serge goes through all the events of Chrono Cross in order to become strong enough to face the Time Devourer and save Schala
-And Project Kid is successful when Schala is saved

Due to the explanation for Chrono Cross, we are to assume that literally all the events of Chrono Cross were the carefully predicted events laid out in Project Kid. I mean, hell, the project was named was for a hypothetical Schala-clone that was nothing more than an idea in Balthasar's head. Long before the Time Crash, even. How's that for a mind bender?

If we assume the above to be true, then Magus' penultimate fate had to have been tied to Project Kid as well. Balthasar knew that a post-Chrono Trigger version of Magus would try to rescue her, fail, and willingly shed his identity... only to continue on in the recognition that he has someone to save, some journey to complete.

Not only that, but how poetic that Magus would desire to have some greater purpose than to fail at saving Schala... only to once again be a tool within Project Kid to help save Schala. A greater purpose. By helping Serge, he would be saving all of space-time, not just his sister (although he'd be saving her, too).

This theory is strongest if we assume Magus=Guile, but it likely still fits that he could end up as part of Project Kid regardless. I'm not sure if anyone else has considered this, but I wanted to point it out and open up the topic for discussion.

I mean, hell, there could be a story out there that follows amnesiac Magus post-the Dream Devourer ending but before he becomes Guile. Or perhaps, if Magus is not Guile, he skips the entire events of Chrono Cross and finds Kid/Schala after the events of Chrono Cross!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 03:02:55 am by Boo the Gentleman Caller »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 12:54:00 pm »
Hmm, you know, now I kinda have the little thought that perhaps his "part" in Project Kid might be... to be out of the way. Assuming Balthasar could predict everything that could happen, who is not to say he had a hand in leading Magus to his failed attempt, so he could lose his memory, and so wouldn't be a factor in the rest of the project. At least, being a factor as Magus. Regardless if he really became Guile or not, perhaps the point was for Magus to not be there in the equation.

Then again, if Balthasar had everything planned (or at least came up with ways to always steer the direction back to where he wants it for any possible outcome in any given situation), why remove Magus from the equation? That would be the only problem with this "theory", unless Magus was truly a wild card in predicting what he would do, even to Balthasar.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 12:56:23 pm by Acacia Sgt »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 02:07:01 pm »
This is exactly what I am curious about.

Quote
Assuming Balthasar could predict everything that could happen, who is not to say he had a hand in leading Magus to his failed attempt, so he could lose his memory, and so wouldn't be a factor in the rest of the project.

This is exactly what I was thinking. We don't know what led future-Magus to the Dream Devourer after the events of Chrono Trigger, and this seems the most logical choice. I hate to always fall back on "Balthasar did it," but in this case it seems the most sound reasoning.

Quote
... unless Magus was truly a wild card in predicting what he would do, even to Balthasar.

As badass as Magus is and as much as I'd like this to be true... I can't see that Magus could be a more complicated variable than, say, making the conditions surrounding Serge, his attack by the panther-demon, and the assurance that Schala would hear Serge's cries and reach out to save him. Seems like Magus would be perfectly manageable by the extends of Project Kid.

Unless, of course, you go with a non-canon course... such as Magus gaining time travel abilities via King Zeal. Granted, Crimson Echoes / Flames of Eternity are not canon and should not be taken as such for real analysis, but I could totally see this being a potential wrench in Project Kid. A single-man with complete control over traversing space-time, without the constraints of the single-timeline time travel abilities of the Epoch and the End of Time, would be an absolute uncontrollable variable.

Then again, it sort of seems like Magus wills himself to lose his memory and travel to wherever he ends up, due to his feeling of hopelessness and loss at his inability to save Schala. This harkons back to the first thought; it seems likely this entire experience could have been orchestrated by Balthasar as part of Project Kid. Hell, the entire events of the Dream Devourer ending could be part of Project Kid.

Redline57

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 01:31:44 am »
This is so confusing I'm going to have to ACTUALLY replay Chrono Cross and I really don't like that game. I'll join this theory in a few months. Because I thought project Kid was Belthasar's idea to clone Schala for the purpose of being able to harness some magic from Kid to ressurect the kingdom of Zeal....all this for the Queen of his kingdom, right? All this for the dream of Zeal?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 01:44:30 am »
Quote
This is so confusing I'm going to have to ACTUALLY replay Chrono Cross and I really don't like that game. I'll join this theory in a few months. Because I thought project Kid was Belthasar's idea to clone Schala for the purpose of being able to harness some magic from Kid to ressurect the kingdom of Zeal....all this for the Queen of his kingdom, right? All this for the dream of Zeal?

Nope, the whole end-game of Project Kid was to rescue Schala and stop the Time Devourer.

That crazy Balthasar literally computed every event that transpires in the game and then executed the Time Crash to actually make it all happen.

So Schala (as part of the Time Devourer) hearing Serge's cries and creating Kid, the timeline split, Terra Tower and Dragon God from the Reptite Dimension, etc... Each and every event was carefully orchestrated so that Serge could become strong enough to acquire the Chrono Cross element and rescue Schala.

Pretty trippy, right?

Captain B

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2019, 10:24:25 am »
I like this possibility, but there is, not in contradiction but in addition, another possibility as well, for another timeline:

In the Dream's Epilogue ending, I used to think Schala expressed an intention to wipe the party's memories before sending them away. Re-watching that ending though, I saw that this was never the case. She tells them only not to dwell upon it.

This means, when everyone returns from the DBT, they remember what they witnessed and many may act, despite Schala's words. This creates a strong origin point for Lucca's future endeavors, but more importantly...      consider that the party's own Magus likely witnessed these events too.

What would happen differently if Magus watched his future self fail to save his sister, for the reasons she stated? What would he change?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 10:05:57 pm by Captain B »

legaiaflame

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2019, 11:55:05 am »
Quote
This is so confusing I'm going to have to ACTUALLY replay Chrono Cross and I really don't like that game. I'll join this theory in a few months. Because I thought project Kid was Belthasar's idea to clone Schala for the purpose of being able to harness some magic from Kid to ressurect the kingdom of Zeal....all this for the Queen of his kingdom, right? All this for the dream of Zeal?

Nope, the whole end-game of Project Kid was to rescue Schala and stop the Time Devourer.

That crazy Balthasar literally computed every event that transpires in the game and then executed the Time Crash to actually make it all happen.

So Schala (as part of the Time Devourer) hearing Serge's cries and creating Kid, the timeline split, Terra Tower and Dragon God from the Reptite Dimension, etc... Each and every event was carefully orchestrated so that Serge could become strong enough to acquire the Chrono Cross element and rescue Schala.

Pretty trippy, right?

I just played the game over again. And the Time Crash wasn't planned, it was an accident. The Time Crash was what split the dimensions, and allowed Lavos to sense and pull the Frozen Flame and Chronopolis to the past. Basically, everything was Belthasars falt. Unless, I misinterpreted that part of the story wrong. If Balthazar never founded Chronopolis none of this would have happened...

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2019, 12:11:48 pm »
I just played the game over again. And the Time Crash wasn't planned, it was an accident. The Time Crash was what split the dimensions, and allowed Lavos to sense and pull the Frozen Flame and Chronopolis to the past. Basically, everything was Belthasars falt. Unless, I misinterpreted that part of the story wrong. If Balthazar never founded Chronopolis none of this would have happened...

The event itself is an accident... but that doesn't meant Belthasar didn't saw/predicted that happening; and incorporated it into his plans.

The Time Crash didn't caused the split. It was Schala saving Serge.

Certainly; but if Belthasar never created Chronopolis, then the Time Devourer would've continued unnoposed and eventually destroyed and reconstructed all of their dimension's space-time.

legaiaflame

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2019, 12:23:57 pm »
It said in the game that the time crash caused the split. I wish I had access to the script so I could find the exact quote...It might be when Miguel is explaining things to Serge...
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 12:26:48 pm by legaiaflame »

legaiaflame

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2019, 12:35:22 pm »
Found it!

Kid:
   In the year 2400, during a
   counter-time experiment, the
   Flame goes out of control...
   This causes the dimensions
   to rip apart, resultin' in
   the Time Crash.
   Engulfed in an enormous
   dimensional vortex,
   Chronopolis was hurled ten
   thousand years back in time.
   Perhaps it was the awakenin'
   Lavos who pulled the Frozen
   Flame back through time to it.
   Maybe so that Lavos, who saw
   the possibility that some young
   adventurers might destroy it,
   could create a backup plan.

See this was all Belthasars falt. Why does everyone blame Serge? If Balthazar never split the dimensions there would be no threat from Lavos.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 12:39:41 pm by legaiaflame »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2019, 12:39:25 pm »
Nope.

That doesn't say the dimension was split. The rip apart bit is that the area around Chronpolis became unstable. THat's how Lavos was able to link it to the past. Or hurl it physically back in time. KEep in mind that there's a theory that says that Chronopolis never left 2400 AD. Rather, a giant gate surrounds it, connecting to 10000 years in the past. This means Chronopolis would be technically beyond the year 12400 AD... or somewhere around there. Again, it's just a theory.

In any case, at no point the script says the dimension split because of the Time Crash. MEanwhile, every time the split is brought up, it's in regards to Serge's fate. HEck, the gate between the worlds is at Opassa Beach, where he did/didn't die. Nowhere near the Sea of Eden where Chronopolis is.

legaiaflame

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2019, 12:42:44 pm »
Its specifically stated "the dimensions" ripped "apart". You can't get any more clear than that.

legaiaflame

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2019, 12:49:23 pm »
   As Schala fell through the
   time gate in this condition,
   she heard your crying
   echoing through time...
   That is when her story and
   yours began to intertwine...
   It is also when the past and
   the future began to intersect,
   and when the world became
   divided into two...

That's pretty vague though. I guess Serge did cause the destroyed timeline to continue. Because Schala combined with Lavos in TDBT heard his cry and reached across dimensions when they heard the crying Serve, resulting in the dimension split...Creating more options for its return.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 12:51:44 pm by legaiaflame »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2019, 01:19:51 pm »
Ripped apart =/= split in two. Ripped apart can even imply it split up into a million pieces.

That's pretty vague though. I guess Serge did cause the destroyed timeline to continue. Because Schala combined with Lavos in TDBT heard his cry and reached across dimensions when they heard the crying Serve, resulting in the dimension split...Creating more options for its return.

It's not really vague, though. Though yes, it was Serge's survival that caused the split.

legaiaflame

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Re: Was Magus Part of Balthasar's Project Kid?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2019, 02:13:57 pm »
A lot of story aspects in this game are vague in the sense that there isn't a lot of details or information given. And it's not just a few instances...For instance:

-How and why did the dimensions split (magic Lavos power...pfffff)?
You could even say that they were already split. And an infinite number of dimensions/possibilities exist. Multiple timelines, infinite possibilities/multiverse.

-How did Lavos come back to life?
-What happened to the Dragon God and the Frozen Flame?
-Why is Serge bringing about the continuation of the ruined timeline?
-Is Lucca alive or dead?

Just to name a few vague points never truly explained.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 02:46:42 pm by legaiaflame »