Author Topic: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory  (Read 2902 times)

ThatGuy

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Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« on: July 17, 2017, 12:48:31 pm »
Hi everyone. I was compelled to sign up after reading this...

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Zenan_Bridge_(Defense_in_Lavos_Timeline).html

Which is a perfectly good explanation. But I always imagined something different so I wanted to share.

It's entirely possible that Zenan Bridge wasn't held. Remember that Magus, in the Lavos Timeline, wasn't interrupted when he summoned Lavos. As we see later, in 12000BC, his plan to destroy Lavos doesn't work. There's no reason to think it'd go any different in 600AD.

Also remember that when Magus disappeared, his army scattered.

So, it's possible that in the original Lavos Timeline, they did break through Zenan bridge, Magus summoned Lavos, failed to defeat him, and disappeared from the world forever, and his army scattered just the same as it does in the Keystone Timeline. The only difference being, the Mystics were closer to winning.

...

Now, the real question is- why did the war with Guardia coincide with Magus's summoning Lavos?

DarioEMeloD

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2017, 01:55:36 pm »
That's a good question, but remember Magus wasn't alone. Ozzie, Slash and Flea were also waging war, with or without him*, and he just used the opportunity to do his thing without anyone bothering him. So I guess it wasn't the war coinciding with the Lavos' summoning, but the other way around.

*I imagine there's a timeline somewhere where Janus doesn't end up in 600AD, but I guess it's irrelevant to the Mystics vs Humans war, its roots coming from way before that.

ThatGuy

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 05:45:18 pm »
See, I always figured the war was some kind of distraction. Or some kind of excuse to build up his fortress and power and whatever exactly he needed to summon Lavos. It's all speculation, but you could easily imagine a backstory where he has a bunch of requirements, basically requiring him to amass power to fulfill them, and he doesn't care if alongside there's a war or whatever.

Regarding Ozzie, Slash, Flea, waging war along side him..? Seems like their loyalty was tentative at best. It's pretty easy to imagine them, once Magus disappears, following suit, thus abandoning the war effort.

Hamisato

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 05:56:51 am »
Your information is very good.

EgyLynx

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 01:00:02 pm »
 :?
Just ... nothing at me think already...

but it was plot...

xcalibur

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 09:47:00 pm »
There's an important line from Ozzie's Fort that was lost in translation, in which Magus states that he only led the Mystics to gain power.

and yes, in the Lavos timeline, Magus successfully summons Lavos, but is defeated in battle.

ThatGuy

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2017, 12:23:58 am »
Awwww, man, come on translators! I know you weren't confusing donkeys and gorillas by the 90s, but still...

xcalibur

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 01:24:20 am »
I respect Ted Woolsey's work, but there are a few points in the game where he drops the ball, probably due to being rushed.

the other one I can think of is Spekkio's line about how only "wizards" were allowed to use magic after the fall of Zeal. it's supposed to refer to Mystics.

ThatGuy

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2017, 02:16:17 am »
Mystics..?

They called themselves enlightened ones, the mystics were Magus's monster-enemy-guys... Am I missing something?

Wait, what's the exact line?

PrincessNadia78

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2018, 06:02:37 pm »
I think in the DS version he says fiends. I'm not 100% on that though.

xcalibur

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2018, 03:08:56 am »
Mystics..?

They called themselves enlightened ones, the mystics were Magus's monster-enemy-guys... Am I missing something?

Wait, what's the exact line?

the people of Zeal were the enlightened ones. the mystics are an intelligent race of creatures that can use magic. the mystics are best known for going to war with humans under Magus' leadership, but they're also in 12000 bc, employed as guards on Mt Woe, and in the ruined future.

the line means that after the catastrophic fall of Zeal, humans abandoned and/or were barred from using magic, henceforth only mystics were magic-users.

I'd have to dig through the script dump to quote it, but I'm certain of this.

I think in the DS version he says fiends. I'm not 100% on that though.
Ted Woolsey translated them as Mystics, the DS translation calls them fiends. that means that they recognized and fixed the 'wizards' error.

according to https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Mystics.html#Japanese_Equivalent the Mystics were originally known as mazoku or 'demon race'. the first kanji can mean 'demon', but it can also refer to a magical or supernatural being. the second kanji means 'tribe'.

Ted Woolsey has his strengths and weaknesses. I think his greatest strength was in coming up with names. 'Mystic' really captures the sense of magic and the supernatural, while not condemning them as evil the way 'demon' or 'fiend' does. there are other examples from other games: in ff6, he translated 'phantom beasts' as 'espers', which again fits really well.

Random Factor

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2018, 04:32:39 pm »
Hi everyone. I was compelled to sign up after reading this...

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Zenan_Bridge_(Defense_in_Lavos_Timeline).html

Which is a perfectly good explanation. But I always imagined something different so I wanted to share.

It's entirely possible that Zenan Bridge wasn't held. Remember that Magus, in the Lavos Timeline, wasn't interrupted when he summoned Lavos. As we see later, in 12000BC, his plan to destroy Lavos doesn't work. There's no reason to think it'd go any different in 600AD.

Also remember that when Magus disappeared, his army scattered.

So, it's possible that in the original Lavos Timeline, they did break through Zenan bridge, Magus summoned Lavos, failed to defeat him, and disappeared from the world forever, and his army scattered just the same as it does in the Keystone Timeline. The only difference being, the Mystics were closer to winning.

...

Now, the real question is- why did the war with Guardia coincide with Magus's summoning Lavos?

The way time travel works, the only true moment that the timeline existed where Magus summoned Lavos unchecked was in a blip of a timeline as the timeline surrounding Nadia/Marle unraveled and re-weaved itself. It was never a strong timeline, so there being no defense of Zenan Bridge is ridiculous. Only Nadia's involvement changes. They still had designs on the Queen and causing a schism in the human Kingdoms. Therefore, most assuredly, the Queens disappearance was noticed, the fake recognized immediately for suddenly acting different, Nadia didn't play the part, but the offensive against the Mystics would have still been in effect, thus causing a rout as the enemy retreated from the Kingdom of Humans as a diversionary tactic to the main show. Destroy the bridge, cease them from following and they're left scratching their heads, whether the real Queen is found or not.

However, the elements of fate and destiny were stronger than the blip of a timeline could ever be and Chrono and Lucca and Glenn were always unavoidable essences, causing the strong timeline to weave itself over and around and destroy the usurping timeline, for certainly Glenn still had history with Magus and between these checks and balances that keep reality together bouncing off each other and calling each other, There most certainly always was a Zenan Bridge Defense with or without, but the with is stronger was before, during and after the blip.

Decent theory, though. Hard to think these things through when you think you're on to something.

ThatGuy

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2018, 01:54:31 am »
I don't think you understand.

The original timeline, aka the Lavos timeline, was what was there before Crono and co. started time travelling. In it, Lavos destroys the world. In it, Nadia was found by whoever (not Crono and co.). In it, Marle was never mistaken for Leene.

And... in it...

Crono and co. never defended Zenan bridge!

So, assuming that without Crono and co. the Mystics would have taken the bridge (which is not a wild assumption at all, in fact, it seems almost certain), the original timeline would have seen the Mystics taking the bridge.

When dealing with the original aka Lavos timeline... time travel is irrelevant. Because in it, there was no time travel.

PrincessNadia78

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2018, 07:49:43 pm »
I just wanted to put out there that I preferred Mystics too. Fiends just has a more negative connotation to it, IMO. Makes me think of prisoners and troublemakers. LOL

EgyLynx

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Re: Alternate Zenan Bridge Defense Theory
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2018, 05:03:29 pm »
So? How it at like at 1000 ad then?  :oops: