Author Topic: Does the Entity exist?  (Read 20176 times)

Zaperking

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Does the Entity exist?
« Reply #165 on: October 02, 2005, 02:51:03 am »
See how asinine you are. I give you your information and you just look at the irrelevance of my post. Just because you can't admit defeat. So conceited >.>

Miguel knows what he's saying. He knows the difference between FATE and the entity Fate in his speaches. Someone whos has 14 years to think over about it, not to mention if he was intergrated with FATE's intellegence, then he'd definetely know.

And by you to say that it was a poetic metaphor is like me saying that the whole camp fire scene in CT was a metaphor too to explain the gates, which case it could be a lie aswell.. >.>

Kazuki

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« Reply #166 on: October 02, 2005, 03:35:51 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
See how asinine you are. I give you your information and you just look at the irrelevance of my post. Just because you can't admit defeat. So conceited >.>

Miguel knows what he's saying. He knows the difference between FATE and the entity Fate in his speaches. Someone whos has 14 years to think over about it, not to mention if he was intergrated with FATE's intellegence, then he'd definetely know.

And by you to say that it was a poetic metaphor is like me saying that the whole camp fire scene in CT was a metaphor too to explain the gates, which case it could be a lie aswell.. >.>


I don't understand really why Miguel would recieve any of FATE's, "Insider info." So to speak. If his only purpose was to guard the Dead Sea, what good would to do to explain the facts of the world to him? I think that whatever conclusions he's come to, it's mainly from his own considering and pondering.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #167 on: October 02, 2005, 09:40:17 am »
Mmh... what does this speech by Kid mean?
Quote
Member:
   We've come this far.
   All that remains
   is to defeat
   the Devourer of Time.
   Once we wipe
   the Devourer of Time
   off the face of this
   planet, it's all over!
   Hopefully everything
   will go back to
   normal again...

Kid:
   You're wrong...
   Things won't ever go back
   to the way they were!
  Destiny...
   '"Fate"'...
   is dead!

   
Kid:
   From now on, us humans
   have to choose our own
   way in life...
   We also have to take
   responsibility for the
   choices we do make.
   And somethin's gotta
   be done about the way
   we go on hurtin' and
   killin' one another!
   We've gotta settle our
   differences once and
   for all!

Zaperking

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« Reply #168 on: October 02, 2005, 09:53:39 am »
@ Kazuki:
I don't personally believe it, but somenoe once said that Miguel was also kind of intergrated, that way FATE would know what he's doing there and if there's any guests etc.

@ Chrono'99

Where in the hell did that come from? I've never once seen that in game. What triggers it? If it's not in the game, but only in the script, it could just be some disgarded stuff.
Also, I don't like the way that fate in "fate" has quotation marks in it. It's almost as if she's talking about the destiny that FATE upheld for everyone. Like my fate was governed by FATE. That's all I can think off. Because if she ment the entity, then that would still mean that it existed, but how can an entity die... It wouldn't make sence...

And if anyone says that Miguel is crazy, then Kid is just as bad. Hello, Dark Serge is right infront of her going on how he likes this new body and shit, and she's going on about how shes gona kill Lynx (Serge) when the group members are saying it's not him.

EDIT:

 [Lynx]
   Nooo!
   How could you...?
   I...
   FATE...
   the Goddess of Fate...
   was not meant to die...
Water Dragon:
   FATE has fallen...
   Fate has died...


It looks way to much like Kid was only talking about what FATE did. FATE was controlling El Nido all along.

And guess what. Belthasar himself was saying something about destiny and how it will guide you or something. And why is one of the chapters something like "Chrono Cross - Where destiny's meet" or something like that >.>

Chrono'99

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« Reply #169 on: October 02, 2005, 10:54:46 am »
Kid says that after you beat the Terra Tower big boss and the tower transforms into its "final form". Storyline-wise, it's right before the final battle against the Devourer of Time at Opassa Beach (FATE has been defeated since quite some time already, that is).

AuraTwilight

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« Reply #170 on: October 02, 2005, 01:31:24 pm »
Quote
Miguel knows what he's saying. He knows the difference between FATE and the entity Fate in his speaches. Someone whos has 14 years to think over about it, not to mention if he was intergrated with FATE's intellegence, then he'd definetely know.

And by you to say that it was a poetic metaphor is like me saying that the whole camp fire scene in CT was a metaphor too to explain the gates, which case it could be a lie aswell.. >.>


So Miguel, an undeniably insane FISHERMAN is more credible than a group of a robot with 400 year's pondering, a genius, a mage who probably knows some stuff about the workings of the universe, a caveman with no moral or religious bias and thusly the clearest clarity of the group, the typical hero and heroine, and a guy weilding a holy sword? WHATEVER! >_> Also note how Miguel keeps switching between metaphor and reality. He's totally nuts.

Quote
Kid's Speech


Now this is what I mean. Regardless of who Fate is in her speech, she has a point. A point Chrono Trigger's been making since the beginning. Humans are responsible for their own actions. NO ONE ELSE! For example, even though Lavos made us what we are today, we are still responsible for the pollution we caused.

Quote
I don't personally believe it, but somenoe once said that Miguel was also kind of intergrated, that way FATE would know what he's doing there and if there's any guests etc.


If you don't believe it, why'd you bring it up?

Quote
Because if she ment the entity, then that would still mean that it existed, but how can an entity die... It wouldn't make sence...


You are an entity too, you know. And you can die.

Quote
And if anyone says that Miguel is crazy, then Kid is just as bad. Hello, Dark Serge is right infront of her going on how he likes this new body and shit, and she's going on about how shes gona kill Lynx (Serge) when the group members are saying it's not him.


Keep in mind that Kid was partly possessed or something then.

Quote
And guess what. Belthasar himself was saying something about destiny and how it will guide you or something. And why is one of the chapters something like "Chrono Cross - Where destiny's meet" or something like that >.>


Belthasar is probably even more nuts than Miguel, and he was also speaking in poetics. Face it, Zaper. All your evidence is poetic, literary dribble.

Oh the irony. I'M the conceited one.

Zaperking

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« Reply #171 on: October 02, 2005, 06:21:22 pm »
Amazing that you only post this now and before >.>

Miguel isn't insane. Hardly. What makes you think? He never came in contact with the Flame. Belthasar isn't mad in this time line.

Even if humans make their own choices, the deity of Fate will always be the one who is doing it. THAT'S HOW FATE WORKS! You're not supposed to know that your choice is already known by someone >.>

And why can't Kid be talking about FATE. The dragons only escaped when "fate" died. Even in Terra Tower, Belthasar is going on how it wasn't the dragons who sealed the flame, but FATE using it's last power to seal them. Now that Fate has died, they're free. Now that fate is dead, humans can make their... well they think they can... choices.

Fate, if a diety, CAN'T DIE! The Planet didn't die, and it has lost like 65million years of energy >.>

SolidSnake_8608

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« Reply #172 on: October 03, 2005, 04:33:06 pm »
Basically everything invovling the Entity and FATE are purely based on specualtion anyways, so no one's theories are better than any one elses, because they can not be proved, if it's not in the game, then you can't criticize someone for making a guess about the subject.  The game never clearly states who or what the Entity is, but the closest thing seems to be FATE, but really, who knows what the Entity really is.

AuraTwilight

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« Reply #173 on: October 03, 2005, 06:50:14 pm »
Quote
Miguel isn't insane. Hardly. What makes you think? He never came in contact with the Flame. Belthasar isn't mad in this time line.


14 years in perfect isolation will make anyone go insane. Especially when you have a family you need to go home to. And I beg to differ. Belthasar is completely off his rocker either way.

Quote
Even if humans make their own choices, the deity of Fate will always be the one who is doing it. THAT'S HOW FATE WORKS! You're not supposed to know that your choice is already known by someone >.>


And yet, there is no evidence for this deity of Fate whatsoever.

Quote
And why can't Kid be talking about FATE. The dragons only escaped when "fate" died. Even in Terra Tower, Belthasar is going on how it wasn't the dragons who sealed the flame, but FATE using it's last power to seal them. Now that Fate has died, they're free. Now that fate is dead, humans can make their... well they think they can... choices.


Um...I WAS arguing that Kid was talking about FATE the computer. You were trying to argue that she was talking about Fate the god. Doy -_- Regardless, if there is any form of a choice whatsoever in any situation, then Fate as you're thinking of it cannot exist.

Quote
Fate, if a diety, CAN'T DIE! The Planet didn't die, and it has lost like 65million years of energy >.>


The planet didn't die because Crono saved it. DUH! It did die in the old timeline. The whole point of the Chrono series is that we can make our own descisions. To insist that there is a god of Fate makes the entirety of the Chrono series....suck. Also, in your last post, you said that Fate was an entity. An entity and a deity are not the same thing.

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« Reply #174 on: October 03, 2005, 08:27:59 pm »
While they're not the same, any deity would automatically be an entity as well even though the opposite is, obviously, not true.

Zaperking

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« Reply #175 on: October 04, 2005, 03:03:01 am »
When I was naming Fate an entity, I was trying to make it sound like a deity. >.>

Well, theres not much proof that the planet is an entity, or atleast not the only one.

We have Zurvan, We have the Planet, Then there's the deity of Fate. Miguel mentions it, Belthasar mentions it, LUCCA MENTIONS IT! (How their destiny's were ment to interwind) even one of the scenario chapters is named "The Arbiter, On whom the Fate's smile upon". That's just as relevant as "For all the dreamers, our planets dream is not over yet", and same with that camp fire scene. You can't disprove one when the other's evidence is very small too.

Also, don't forget the intro of CC. "When was the start of this all, When did the cogs of Fate begin to turn? Prehaps it's impossible to get that answer now, from deep within the flow of time" Something like that.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #176 on: October 04, 2005, 06:37:18 am »
But what about this stuff that Miguel also says?
Quote
Miguel:
   History is composed of
   choices and divergences.
   Each choice you make
   creates a new world and
   brings forth a new future.
   But at the same time,
   you're eliminating a
   different future with the
   choices you didn't make.

Zaperking

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« Reply #177 on: October 04, 2005, 06:50:08 am »
That was more relating to time travel in itself...

And here's what you forgot after it:


Miguel:
   A future denied of all
   existence because of a
   change in the past...
   A future that was destroyed
   even before it was born
   rests here...condensed
   into the Dead Sea.
 
Member:
   How is that possible...!?

Member:
   How can this be!?

Harle:
   ......
   
Miguel:
   '"Fate."'
   Our lives are governed
   by fate.
   Fate knows all
   and controls all.
   No one can run
   from fate...

Without that last statement and the questions, of course your quote would sound as if he's not talking about it. But with a full script, it only then makes sence.

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« Reply #178 on: October 04, 2005, 06:52:18 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
even one of the scenario chapters is named "The Arbiter, On whom the Fate's smile upon". That's just as relevant as "For all the dreamers, our planets dream is not over yet", and same with that camp fire scene. You can't disprove one when the other's evidence is very small too.

Also, don't forget the intro of CC. "When was the start of this all, When did the cogs of Fate begin to turn? Prehaps it's impossible to get that answer now, from deep within the flow of time" Something like that.


Yes, but whereas those are figures of speech, "Our planet's dream is not over yet" isn't, so the case is still in the Planet=the Entity's corner as far as I can see...

Zaperking

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« Reply #179 on: October 04, 2005, 11:06:04 am »
"Our planet's dream is not over yet" is as figure of speechly as the cog's of fate part... The whole thing could be a metaphor. Why is it "For all the dreamers"? What if you're not a dreamer? I'm more thinking that it's just not the end of this tale. Dreamers = Serge and co. Planets dream = For the universe to be rid of Lavos/TD. If the Planet was dreaming, we'd be having gates pop open everywhere.