Author Topic: The Chrono Timestream  (Read 5113 times)

Random Factor

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The Chrono Timestream
« on: May 12, 2016, 02:50:50 pm »
Consider the factors of time travel and the effects had by Crono and Co. in Chrono Trigger. Did they truly travel in time more than once? Or, did they, in fact, travel across a series of alternate realities without knowing that they had done so?

If Crono and Marle/Nadia had not traveled in time from the Leene Fair in 1000 AD, would Lavos have come to Earth at all? Such a beings' feasting on knowledge and absorption could not have destroyed the world on its own, as evidenced by the emergence and rage of Lavos in 1999 AD; creating an apocalyptic destruction. In correct terms, this insinuates that Lavos was absorbing information and data from countless entities throughout time and space within the confines of the Earth without harming it. It can be considered, at that point, that Lavos was only thought to be evil based on reactions by Zeal, who wished to harness the powers of Lavos for evil; Janus, who wished to avenge Schala and get her back and, as a child, misperceived the events that occurred involving Lavos; and Crono and Co. themselves as they interacted with time and saw the Lavos attack of 1999 AD and assumed that Lavos was evil.

Furthermore, it must be considered that Lavos did not come to Earth simply to absorb the information held just by the inhabitants of Earth, but due to the ready supply of the timestream itself and all data of the flowing of time, as reinforced in Chrono Cross when Lavos does not simply exist throughout one timeline, but two.

It is my theory that without time travel at all, Lavos may not have seen fit to come to Earth, since the energy alone of the creatures there and their learning and knowledge may not have attracted it. Therefore, without the initial time travel by Marle/Nadia and Crono in 1000 AD, Lavos would not have been on Earth, or at least would not be known to be in the Earth; and the destruction of 1999 AD may have been able to be avoided.

Beyond that, Crono and Marle/Nadia would not have disappeared for days, but would have had a pleasant time at the fair before she returned home; Crono would possibly not have gone to jail, they might possibly have had further dates and Crono would still have wound up as the King of Guardia in a Queendom; not a Kingdom.

However, the ripple effects of time did attract Lavos to the scene from 1000 AD, hence why the story opens there, and attracted it to Earth well before this ripple ever began, back in the age of the dinosaurs. How can something that hasn't happened yet cause something to happen that will cause it to happen?

It is believed that the sheer potential of a reality and universe, from its very beginnings, causes all of time and space to exist. From nothingness itself, the universe and reality can spring into existence just by the sheer potential of what it could be if it did exist, causing it to bring itself into existence in a variety of 'impossible' ways, from the inside out.

Therefore, we can ascertain that there was a reality where there was not any time travel, no travel between alternate realities and no Lavos. However, due to what was that caused the existence of their reality and their universe, there were grooves in the track of existence; ruts; that caused the overlay of reality wherein time travel became a possibility and eventually a reality, bringing Lavos to Earth to learn, not destroy; causing the confusion inherent in the inhabitants of Earth, causing the corruption of Zeal already fat on magic to begin to be greedy for more, causing Crono and Co. to go through and destroy Lavos, which caused the reincarnation and the passing of information on to the Lavos in Chrono Cross.

From the very beginning, with the first time travel by Crono and Marle; they returned to an alternate reality from when they left with a variety of possibilities of how it could have turned out: The one I already detailed where they did not travel through time at all; one where Queen Leene dies and Marle/Nadia is subsequently wiped out of existence or placed beyond their ability to remain a part of the ruling family of Guardia, however still present in another place in the world; the death of Crono and Co. before they go on their journey to learn of Lavos and to 'destroy' the invading parasite/symbiote; Lucca not showing up in the past due to something preventing her from figuring out the secrets of the gate key and Crono remaining lost in the past, etc.

Each of these possibilities creates an alternate reality spin-off from the main reality, which does involve time travel; it must for the story to exist, for the reality to exist fully. At each point of the 'game', there becomes these varied, strong, possibilities branching off to create fully-fleshed alternate realities of their own. And, several weaker possibilities throughout the lives of all those who inhabit the Earth that do the same, creating a vast array of alternate realities for each one, for each moment of their lives with separate time lines altogether; with groups from one reality in another without the rest of singular individuals existing in a world seemingly all their own away from the others that inhabit the main reality; and that between these extremes, a whole vast palette exists for each entity and living thing on the planet and furthermore, for each thing in each alternate reality as well; throughout the entire length of the existence of the planet, including Lavos.

This is pertinent to understand because, on some level, some of those lines begin to attach to our reality and hence our knowledge of the world within Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, delivered to us as a game, written by story-tellers and dreamers and constructed by artists, seers.

furthermore, each weaker reality that exists serves to reinforce the main reality; the multiverse/multireality and the omniverse/omnireality and will eventually; even if able to stand away without merging with the main reality; will eventually be drawn into and merge with the main realities which will in turn merge with the main reality. Note the difference between the plural and the singular.

At the same time, Gaspar's 'End of Time', is not a place without time, but with a timeline of its own, and is it truly the 'end' of time? Or, is it merely a pocket eternity all of its own, transcending time as it appears to do? A place where nothing was and then something, with the first intrusion: Gaspar. Nothing does not remain nothing for long. A pocket of time and space; much like a black hole, or a secret niche that becomes less secret the more that others know about it.

I can and will expand on this later, but I need time to let my thoughts regather and to see what others have to say or add to this.

Random Factor

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 03:42:25 pm »
Of course, this does call into question whether Lavos is evil and whether Crono and Co. are truly 'Heroes' for destroying him. Lavos did not go out to attack them, nor did it go out to attack anyone that did not attack it. It furthermore did not seek to destroy the Earth until prompted to do so. It was not killing anything and the length of time in which it was supposed to be sapping the planet of energy and resources is probably the length of time that the Earth would have been sapped of resources and energy by its other inhabitants. At the point of it rising up and destroying much of the surface of the planet in 1999 AD, all it did was similar to what the humans would do eventually on their own and yet they claim moral superiority in fighting off the alien invader that had only burrowed down and had been learning.

Now, to state that Crono and Co. thought about this at all while in the heavy stream of fighting or could bend their thoughts to any other idea than that of Lavos being their enemy, is to state something that can not be known. It would be akin to murder, though. They went and attacked Lavos; it was premeditated; and just because it could defend itself does not change the fact they killed it, and for what? That it, enraged, destroyed the surface of the world at a point where humans had proven themselves to be a thorn in the cosmic scheme of things? A thorn in natures side? Perhaps that they had once again learned of Lavos' presence and wanted to use its power again, like Zeal did, and Lavos wished to prevent it from happening? We are sorely uninformed on the subject.

And, at that point, we must assume that the Earth tapped into Universal knowledge and secrets; forbidden knowledge and forbidden magics; to open the fabric of time and space to destroy Lavos, or to, at the least, lead others in a dance with life and death to a point where they destroyed Lavos, whether that was the intent of the Earth or not. If intent could be measured in such a way. And, perhaps the time discrepencies could be viewed to occur simply because of the nexus involving each event when they became necessary and the vast variety of possibilities connected into those nexus' to compact time and space enough to bridge the gaps through the portals. No intent from Nature or Lavos or Earth at all; just simple cause and effect, sheer potential and possibility and each thing making up its own mind based on the information gathered and available.





Note: These captchas for each post are annoying.

Exodus

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2016, 04:50:33 pm »
An interesting idea.

xcalibur

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 09:30:20 am »
A very interesting write-up!

Based on some of the dialogue during the final confrontation with Lavos, I always had the understanding that Lavos is essentially "farming" the world. He is using the lifeforms of earth to learn, grow stronger, and improve his genetics. His harvest is not limited to the human race, but we do play a central role in it, which is why his final form looks humanoid.

I also had the impression that he destroys the world in 1999 because he sees human civilization as a threat. Whether the culture of 1999 was siphoning off his power to create Magitek, or if they had conventional technology that was a threat to Lavos (such as nuclear weapons), or if he just wanted a safe playground for his spawn, we're not really sure. What is certain is that he destroyed Zeal for that reason. When the Mammon Machine was on the bottom of the ocean, he could feel his power being drained, which startled him awake and presented him with a direct threat to his life and livelihood. We all saw what happened next in that iconic scene. The fact that Lavos destroyed only Zeal, and not the Earthbound, is one of the strongest arguments imo that Lavos is a highly intelligent being and not just a space tick.

Lavos isn't evil, he just doesn't operate on our morality. He destroys civilizations for the same reason we cull animals when there's an outbreak of rabies. We are his crop, his herd, which is highly useful to him as long as we're under control.

The main theme of Chrono Trigger is the triumph of free will over fate, which culminates in defeating Lavos. Chrono & Co. undertook that quest to secure a future of survival and prosperity for their species, the human race. They acted in the best interest of humans, just as Lavos acts in the best interest of himself and his spawn. And so, the final battle of Chrono & Co. vs. Lavos wasn't about Good vs. Evil, it was a battle between two very different kinds of life with conflicting goals.

addendum - in the Japanese version, the End of Time was known as The Farthest Reaches of Time, which is an important detail for speculation.

EgyLynx

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2016, 06:33:32 pm »
Eerf. So, Lavos think Humans evil, self good and humans thinks or let player  thinks them are good and evil... well...

Queen Zeal is greedy, or Dalton greedy of power... but are them evil at all?

Random Factor

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2017, 05:31:52 pm »
Sadly, the circle of life dictates neither good or evil, though the labels get attached. Surely Queen Zeal was more evil than Lavos. Lavos is just another organism in a vast energy farm that decided to soak up some extra energy and knowledge and farm it itself. At the most, it could be declared that both through its original form in CT and its advanced form in CC, it played the part of symbiote to humanity and Earth for a short amount of time and a large portion of the time-space continuum only to must have been farmed itself by the twain of Earth and Humanity.

Energy vampires. Comparable to farming energy such as in Dragon Ball Z by Babidi for Buu; comparable to Megatokyo's take on Magic Girls and how one of them in the main story arc is constantly feeding off Largo's and Piro's energies; comparable to at least one of Supernatural's episodes of those who push friends to be at each others throats for the sheer feasting of energy that they engage in to even those who help each other feasting off the good energy like Andy sitting on the roof top of Shawshank Redemption as the other drink his Beers.

And this feasting is always twined with learning and twined with seeking to destroy perceived threats.

So... how insane are we?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 05:43:42 pm by Random Factor »

ThatGuy

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2017, 12:44:55 pm »
So I'm having many thoughts on all this.

The alternate realities is a neat idea, but there's no reason to think that's what's going on the first time Crono/Marle go to 600ad. (Just saying).


The simplest explanation seems to be that Lavos brings Armageddon because it comes time for him to reproduce. Maybe he needs more resources to do so. Maybe he eliminates the threats to himself- or his offspring- before doing so as a standard measure. Maybe both.


Evil is a funny term. It's a human construct, and we find remnants of it in all kinds of religions/mythologies. They all seem to point to the fact that we humans have "knowledge." We're self aware, we can imagine the future instead of merely living in the present, etc. So the grizzly bear killing cubs so the mom will mate with him isn't evil, but a man doing the same thing is the worst kind of evil.

So going with that, there are a few ways to think about it. First, since evil is a human idea (and not one to be discarded because of that, mind you!), Lavos is by definition evil because he kills almost all of humanity. That's an evil, and we were right to fight it.

But! But! The objections come that Lavos isn't human, and should be analogized to the grizzly. Well, one problem. If Lavos is a higher being, or even one on the same level as us (seems like he has quite a bit of intelligence, if nothing else), maybe we should apply good/evil to him. Good and evil came along somewhere between us being our chimp-related ancestors and our self-aware selves.

Unless, of course, Lavos is in some ways more like a space tick. Maybe he really is just a creature doing what it does, that actually doesn't have free will the way we do. (This works in with him being the creation of some other being that wants to collect the galaxy's/universe's information all for itself, by the way.)

In fact... Maybe Lavos's lack of free will is why we were able to beat him... (Ooo...)


I do like the idea though, that maybe they were tapping into Lavos again in 1999.

My idea was that Lavos waited until humanity had become advanced enough to discover him. Not in the half-blind way that Zeal did (that was dealt with similarly, but on a smaller scale), but in a global way. I mean, they lived in domes, they probably had the internet.

So Lavos waits until the last moment, collecting as much as he can, growing as strong as he can, watching. And when some research team finds evidence of him, publishes their findings or whatever... Or when he's awakened again the way Zeal did, through whatever means, he's prompted... Either way, the point is, he can't put doomsday off any longer... boom.

And off goes the next generation.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:59:26 pm by ThatGuy »

chrono.source

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 10:27:30 am »
This has gotten me to think a little about the nature of Lavos and how it works.

Firstly, since it has the ability to reproduce on its own, I believe it would be female, or some asexual variation of the sort. But wait! What if Lavos IS a she... and was impregnated before landing on earth, and is simply gathering energy and nesting here?

Now one thing that I was thinking about what how Lavos has enough higher conscience to live and breed on its own, but is still apparently a slave to others in the sense that it can be summoned to come when called.

What is the "Apocalypse" in 1999 was merely just another summoning by a being outside the main plot of the game?

It appears as though every other time Lavos appears, it is due to being summoned (ie Magus summoning), or being disturbed (ie Ocean Palace).

This theory lends to the fact that IF another person summoned it in 1999, then Lavos would have simply been a helpless creature trying to take care of its young. Kind of makes me feel bad for it.

ThatGuy

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 12:55:51 am »
Yes, but is Lavos really summoned? Or just awoken by a perceived threat?

I don't know that it's a slave to others. Maybe, if not merely awoken, it can be manipulated by others... but that's true for every living organism to some degree. I can jerk your arm and make you fall forward, tap your knee and get that "reflex," prod you with electricity and make you spasm, or drug you and fuck up your senses.

I still think Lavos was more awoken than anything after Zeal was tapping into its power.

Scintillating_Void

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 10:20:09 am »
I also had the impression that he destroys the world in 1999 because he sees human civilization as a threat. Whether the culture of 1999 was siphoning off his power to create Magitek, or if they had conventional technology that was a threat to Lavos (such as nuclear weapons), or if he just wanted a safe playground for his spawn, we're not really sure. What is certain is that he destroyed Zeal for that reason. When the Mammon Machine was on the bottom of the ocean, he could feel his power being drained, which startled him awake and presented him with a direct threat to his life and livelihood. We all saw what happened next in that iconic scene. The fact that Lavos destroyed only Zeal, and not the Earthbound, is one of the strongest arguments imo that Lavos is a highly intelligent being and not just a space tick.

Lavos clearly was manipulating Queen Zeal, as her servants note that she changed overnight after the Mammon Machine was turned on.  It's possible that Lavos manipulated her to get closer to him so he could destroy the Mammon Machine.  Or maybe just Lavos's eldritch alien, maddening, inscrutable, incomprehensible, vast, mind drove her completely batshit the way all alien space gods who sleep for eons like Cthulhu do.

Speaking of that, Lavos is much more easily understood if you interpret him as a being inspired by Cthulhu and the other Great Old Ones.  Which is to say "your puny human mind cannot comprehend his motives at all." 

Speaking of such, it's interesting how the Chrono series can be interpreted as "Lovecraft Lite"-basically cosmic horror in which the humans win in the end...for now.  Lavos being a being that is not exactly evil, but whose existence threatens humans is very much like how in the cosmic horror genre there are often beings who are threatening to destroy the world but it's not really that they are evil, that we are just insignificant bugs to them.  However, despite that there is a chilling thought about how humans wouldn't be there if it weren't for Lavos, and that even magic was a gift brought by Lavos, and that their world was shaped by Lavos.  So despite humans winning in the end, the influence of Lavos is their own existence, and there are probably thousands of other Lavoses out there.

The incubators from Puella Magi Madoka Magica(which is also cosmic horror inspired) operate by targeting girls who have the most despair tied to their fate, then they grant them a wish-in exchange for having them be magical girls.  The end goal is to build of a great amount of hope and empowerment, only to crush it all in the end into a big ball of despair.  Of course CT came before PMMM, but I wonder if Lavos gifting greater intelligence and magic to humans is similar to this-create hope, dreams, etc. then crush them and harvest the immense emotional energy coming from that.

ThatGuy

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Re: The Chrono Timestream
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2017, 10:48:16 pm »
Ehhh, there was a mentioning in a Nu's book somewhere in Zeal about "it all" beginning when man's ancestors picking up a strange red rock, from it love and hate were born... something like that...

And that red rock was obviously dreamstone. And Ayla had dreamstone. Before Lavos showed up.

So I think the case is still strongest that humans weren't evolved by Lavos, but that he watched it happened and collected the DNA and all that.