Author Topic: Chrono Сross Modification  (Read 36217 times)

HedonChest

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2016, 09:49:36 am »
I have a request (sorry!) that would convince me to play CC again:

Ozzi, Flea, Slash as permanently recruitable characters. Balanced based off of other characters (slash could use Fargo as a base) but then maybe tweaked to a higher tier and keeping their unique techs. Would. Also be nice if they could have double and triple techs when used together but idk.

I realize this would be a bit unfair to ol' spriggan but... I don't care. Having to work her up to doppelgänge every round just to use the semblance of one of them as a character just isn't worth it.

Corpse69

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2016, 04:03:00 am »
great to see some mods going once again

prizvel

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2016, 05:50:39 pm »
Funny time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVSfcMSn6cA  :D

I have a request (sorry!) that would convince me to play CC again:

Ozzi, Flea, Slash as permanently recruitable characters. Balanced based off of other characters (slash could use Fargo as a base) but then maybe tweaked to a higher tier and keeping their unique techs. Would. Also be nice if they could have double and triple techs when used together but idk.

I realize this would be a bit unfair to ol' spriggan but... I don't care. Having to work her up to doppelgänge every round just to use the semblance of one of them as a character just isn't worth it.

interesting idea.


TheMage

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2016, 09:34:24 pm »
Lucca!!!!

I'm curious, is there a complete- (geeze I don't know how to word this for this game era) A complete model set for Lucca in the cross engine (like battling graphics etc) or just running/walking graphics?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 09:36:17 pm by TheMage »

Danetta

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2016, 01:41:03 am »
Ozzi, Flea, Slash as permanently recruitable characters.
Well, there are.. limitations.

just running/walking graphics?
This. Battle model/animations doesn't exist.

metastase

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2016, 06:00:09 am »
Good to see this project is still going! I'm the same Metastase that proposed that Recharge System on the 2nd GFAQs discussion linked here.

Answering Danetta's post, #52, page 4:

I think you're on the right track if you're planning to use %-based mechanics (such as status effects) to provide replayability. The alternative being VERY clever enemy patterns, which are much harder to create. That said, maybe this is too ambitious and you should reconsider the scope of this enhanced replayability, 1 alternative being: Create 2 different difficulty patches, 1 for a clean playthrough and the other assuming max lvl characters.

Otherwise your attempt to improve replay value will invariably have to face the "gambling" issue I've mentioned on that GFAQs discussion.

Also on that GFAQs discussion I've mentioned a clean approach to determine each Boss "theme" in order to maximize CC's battle engine functionality and how to choose plot points for specific Element distribution. The short version: Sum the total number of unique/strategic/interesting Elements, then divide them by the number of Bosses. Enforce those Element drops needed accordingly before the next boss.

I still think replacing 1 useless Element of each colour for multiple versions of Recharge is a superior (not to mention more doable) solution when it comes to re-designing CC's battle system.

Just imagine trying to balance the system bias on the usefulness of certain character Innates (by map/boss) based on how useful a certain added status effect became on any given new Attack Element spell (such as "Asleep"). This adds such an unnecessary clutter/obfuscation to what is otherwise a very clean Innate system that I'm not sure it's actually worth it.

IE: If a Boss wastes his turn to Purify himself, now you have to design him to account for even more punishment from 3 attackers and what about those players that didn't discover the Boss status vulnerability? See what I mean by unnecessary complication?

Not to say this isn't interesting - it certainly is - but this is a very close line to development hell, the likes of which don't tend to survive until project completion.

Ultimately, I think it all depends on what you guys are currently capable of doing with enemy pattern modding on CC. If you can list the AI behaviors/limitations currently available to you I'm sure people can provide much more useful and precise feedback. Maybe that will spark new (but doable) ideas too, right?

Danetta

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2016, 03:54:19 pm »
Quote
Good to see this project is still going! I'm the same Metastase that proposed that Recharge System on the 2nd GFAQs discussion linked here.
Herro again, Metastase. I am glad to see you, you are the rare one, who actually paricipates with ideas.
Let's go part by part.

Quote
I think you're on the right track if you're planning to use %-based mechanics (such as status effects) to provide replayability. The alternative being VERY clever enemy patterns, which are much harder to create. That said, maybe this is too ambitious and you should reconsider the scope of this enhanced replayability, 1 alternative being: Create 2 different difficulty patches, 1 for a clean playthrough and the other assuming max lvl characters.
Well. At first, I don't really look at status-effects as at %-based mechanics. Only chance of applying is %-based, however, in the original game it provides more harm than good. Status-effects are often left unnoticed in the original game, even when they are applied. But with chance to NOT be applied they become even more unnoticed. I think, we should do quite the opposite — make them clear and distinct.
Also, status-effects are binded to corresponding colors and not all the enemies will have access to all colors in addition to their innate one (I mean, thematically, Lynx probably can use all of them, but Green Dragon doesn't need to use fireballs to be succesful).
Also, you need to read this thing:
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=11061.0

What about clever patterns — we definitely have to create some, but not every monster or boss should be VERY clever, you know, otherwise, every battle would look the same.

2 patches for the first and endgame playthroughs are actually an issue. There are some technical problems, which I can't yet describe, but, anyway, we don't need 2 patches, we can have scaling enemies and different patterns for each playthrough in a single patch, but it effectively doubles the amount of work needed, you know.

Quote
Otherwise your attempt to improve replay value will invariably have to face the "gambling" issue I've mentioned on that GFAQs discussion.
Well, 99% of all gamedesigns would go with one of 3 ways:
1. Remove "prepare"-phase completely to eliminate gambling. This is bad, because you actually reduce the amount of available player actions. It's good sometimes, but not in our situation. I mean, imagine Chrono Cross as just a line with battles going one by one without preparations. You solve a puzzle with elements given you by a god (developer), which is not actually bad, but prepare-phase definitely makes the game interesting, It's just as new game inside an existing game.
2. Make every available choice similar to other choices. This is exactly how it's done in the original game. You have a lot of various things and can win with any combination of them. While this sounds good, it's actually very casual experience. I mean, it may be good at start, but after some point every player will realize that he doesn't have to care at all.
3. The same is above, but improved with optionality. It provides a lot of gambling, but, however, with enough testing you can heavily improve it to the point where "every strategy is valid as long as it's very well executed and not heaviliy countered". We also can provide a lot of feedback to player, so, if strategies are flexible enough, you still can win even with not the best strategy in particular situation, even it's not the worst strategy. Yes, gambling still exists in this situation, but it's less noticeable.

However, as long as game is limited with amount of bosses/enemies/etc, you can't create an environment, where existing gamble doesn't matter anymore (even with your "recharge" idea, about which later).
I can give an example. EVE Online is pretty complex MMO-game. A lot of things and strategies in this game can easily kill others. However, it's not just rock/paper/scissors.
Like, you have to go with ship A against ship X. You don't know which ship you are going to face, so you hae to make choices:
  • For ship A choose setup 1, which is very good against most of setups of ship B. You will fly and try to skip all the ships except B, or vice-versa.
  • Choose an "universal" setup with some weak points or take different setups and swap them right before battle.
The second thing is perfectly applied to Chrono Cross. However, PVP-games are self-content-creating, while Chrono Cross is not. Gamble is heavily diminished due to wide variety of possible results and also due to simple statistics and a lot of engagements.

It's not the best, but there is no other way. We can't get rid out of it, but we can make it less-noticeable. However, I prefer described ways more than your recharge idea because recharge idea actually removes "prepare"-phase, which is a big deal.
I know, it's just a way to change battle-system from outside, but it's a weird looking workaround from design-perspective. I mean, even without 6 recharges, but with only one and color-less, it's still would look like Recharge is a thing above all the battle-system and not a part of it (as element).

I mean, you can't expect Single-Player-Story-Oriented-Linear-Game to have good replayability. Once you beat all the bosses with new scritps — you have done here.
Maybe we can add a tons of new battles with increasing difficulty over and over (after end-game).

Quote
Also on that GFAQs discussion I've mentioned a clean approach to determine each Boss "theme" in order to maximize CC's battle engine functionality and how to choose plot points for specific Element distribution. The short version: Sum the total number of unique/strategic/interesting Elements, then divide them by the number of Bosses. Enforce those Element drops needed accordingly before the next boss.
I do not argue here, it looks fine.

Quote
I still think replacing 1 useless Element of each colour for multiple versions of Recharge is a superior (not to mention more doable) solution when it comes to re-designing CC's battle system.
I don't think battle-system need a redesign. It has some major unfixable issues, but everyting else is pretty well designed. Just parts of system need a lot of tweaks. However, I do understand your point and I love to discuss it.
Still, replacing 6 useless elements seems worse to me than just making them useful.

Quote
Just imagine trying to balance the system bias on the usefulness of certain character Innates (by map/boss) based on how useful a certain added status effect became on any given new Attack Element spell (such as "Asleep"). This adds such an unnecessary clutter/obfuscation to what is otherwise a very clean Innate system that I'm not sure it's actually worth it.
I do not understand what do you mean here. Status effects are already binded to Attack elements color by color, heavy buffed status effects would not affect complexity.


Quote
IE: If a Boss wastes his turn to Purify himself, now you have to design him to account for even more punishment from 3 attackers and what about those players that didn't discover the Boss status vulnerability? See what I mean by unnecessary complication?
Enemy can become more resistant or immune to some statuses if you abuse them too much. Even with feedback — some elements may give you resistances to be statused. Just an idea.
Also, you don't need to actually discover vulnerability, I think most of the immunes should be removed, maybe except those, which fit very good thematically.
There are a lot of other workarounds, like, if you just Antidote'd your Poison status, it would be pretty logical if you can't be poisoned right after.
Also, as I said, I would recommend everyone to use external overlay. We will probably add accessory item which will provide new information to your interface. Probably even with resistances of your enemy. I thought about bestiary, but not sure about it.
I am not implying that we should use everying I explained, but there are definitely enough ways to go.


Quote
Ultimately, I think it all depends on what you guys are currently capable of doing with enemy pattern modding on CC. If you can list the AI behaviors/limitations currently available to you I'm sure people can provide much more useful and precise feedback. Maybe that will spark new (but doable) ideas too, right?
Well, right now we can do almost everything. Enemies can gather and use information available to player and plan accordingly. I don't know, battlescripts and external overlay allow us to do anything, except self-learning enemies.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 04:16:16 pm by Danetta »

kolt54321

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2016, 01:34:03 am »
I'm quite excited about a CC mod, but I'm not sure which direction it would go. Is there a clear goal and specific guidelines of what you'd like to create? Or are you just steadily exploring your options for now? Either is fine, but it does help me understand whether I should be expecting this anytime soon :)

Reading through these 5 pages, I've more or less seen suggestions for battle mechanics, different characters, hair schemes, etc.

These aren't bad. But shouldn't we focus on the stuff that matters the most - i.e. the things that people didn't like about the game in the first place? Sure, it may be difficult connecting the dots between Trigger and Cross (Crimson Echoes aimed to do that, and that was a monstrous project), but there are easier things that everyone complains about.

The character dialogue generator for one. Another is the sheer amount of characters, that people felt were superfluous or extra.

Why not kill two birds with one stone? I have no experience in modding, but injecting dialogue in specific places should be one of the easier things to do. How about we start by creating a deeper backstory for, I dunno, one of the 45 characters? In essence, you'd be making the game better than it ever was - by fixing some things people didn't like about it in the first place.

You can fine-tune the battle system, and add cool techs, sure. But will people remember it? Will it be the mod that goes down in history as the one that really completes the game? It'll be more of a "technical" mod, rather than refine the aspects that people truly care about - not the battles, but the story, what makes the game great, and what detracts from that.

It's also worthwhile to note that you can get a lot of outside support creating backstory (and character individuality present-game too, I guess) for characters than the technical aspect of adding techs and such.

Heck, I'd be happy to help flesh out some of the characters in game. In fact, any fanfic author would jump at this opportunity. Who wouldn't? It's bringing further development of their beloved characters to the actual game. It's not as hard as starting from a new slate, like a sequel, and it won't interfere with the current story either - there's a good ~40-ish characters that are essentially barebones with a blank slate, that can easily be expanded upon.

I don't like bringing this up, but Chrono Compendium doesn't have to die. I'm sick and tired of lurking here for 8 years. I'm tired of being long forgotten by SE. I say refine the game, give the characters flesh and blood, and make the game better than it was on November 18, 1999. Bits of new dialogue add up, and go a long way. There's enough characters to break things up bit by bit, and quickly finish something concrete.

I shouldn't be rambling though, I'm not even the one doing these mods. I do think though that with this type of modification we can involve the entire community in the "would-be" of each character, and get this done a lot faster than two people alone. Prizvel and Danetta, can you two create an event with new dialogue, or is this not feasible with modding yet?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 01:44:48 am by kolt54321 »

alfadorredux

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2016, 08:42:22 am »
Been there, wrote that, although the addition of Magus as a character separate from Guile (plus some other quirks) would make that script a bit more difficult to implement than just altering dialogue and adding cutscenes. Still, it's available to mine for alternate character lines, if nothing else.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 05:37:58 pm by alfadorredux »

utunnels

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2016, 09:07:06 am »
By the way, I can't open any of the links you posted recently, alfador, I think you missed their http part.

kolt54321

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2016, 09:37:54 am »
Been there, wrote that, although the addition of Magus as a character separate from Guile (plus some other quirks) would make that script a bit more difficult to implement than just altering dialogue and adding cutscenes. Still, it's available to mine for alternate character lines, if nothing else.

I'll take a read through that, thanks! For the sake of (possible) improvement, I'll being brutally honest; from the first post, it seems too much like a fanfic and too little like something that would be in the game. I don't think the atmosphere in Chrono Cross calls for "but she's kinda cute!" anywhere in the game, except for maybe/perhaps/possibly Harle to another character. Giving Serge internal dialogue might be a bit dangerous too - players identified with Serge, and if there's something he's saying that's clearly not something the player would, he becomes another character instead of the player.

There's rarely anything "spicy" in the CC dialogue, save for some Termina fun. And I don't think there's anything teenager-ish about the original script - definitely not like those YA section books that's sole purpose is to be snarky. At the end of the day, I think it's fair to say that there's a difference between a fanfic and the game script itself, not only in terms of content but in style as well. If this is going to happen, we'd have to make some revisions. AFAIK, I think players would be most interested in the type of extra dialogue that would fit in the game's environment; I wouldn't want to change the feel of the game even if someone paid me to do so.

Although I didn't read through the 22 pages yet (nice amount of material there), I noticed that you added [internal] dialogue to Serge (to give him character), but also to Kid. The way I see it, Kid is one of the most developed people in the game - I'm not sure if it's necessary to give her extra dialogue in this context. Let me know what you think though, I'd love to hear your opinion.

Thirdly, and this is very important, one of the main areas I see story-based games stumble is by the dialogue - namely, too much of it. Not everyone likes a VN, and the secret to a good game includes just the right amount of text. Even if it provides valuable backstory, it can't be walls of text - I can't emphasize this enough. We don't want to turn CC into Radical Dreamers - I do think adding bits of text at certain points consistently will add up in the long run, rather than a wall of inevitable text. If it's something that can only be viewed via a sidequest, a character explaining his position - even for a paragraph or two - is fine.

I'm glad you thought of this - 6 years earlier than me lol. Even with all my criticisms, there's a huge amount of source material there we can draw from - thank you for that. Don't take anything "negative" I say as personal; I'm just voicing my opinions on what I think could be revised and have the most benefit. I could very well be wrong.

As an example, personally, I wouldn't put most of the stuff from Serge and Kid in (I do NOT want this to be a romance novel), also because of the way the game dialogue is already geared. But for "secondary" characters, there's much to take a look at.

Another thing I'd like to note is that if this script mod does happen, and we are keeping the original cast, then the extra dialogue can't be one story broken up into 20 pieces. People switch characters for growth and battle reasons, and it would be infuriating to hear a tiny bit about Fargo and then nothing at all. We want the player to be happy with the amount of "optional" dialogue he's getting, even if he switches the character out for another one later. That means no cliffhangers.

On a positive note, prizvel and Danetta, we already have some source material. It's possible that even more people would be interested in working on this project - and with the host of characters, it would be easy to get ideas regarding each one.

This isn't going to be a fanfic - if this is going to happen, we'll make it identical to the "feel" of the game script, with slight character nuances in the dialogue to add flavor. I think one of the easiest things to do here is to go way overboard with the character traits and ruin the feel of the game. We should probably make sure that doesn't happen.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 10:08:36 am by kolt54321 »

Danetta

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2016, 11:11:27 am »
// Ready reply 77 on page 6 in this topic
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 04:32:50 pm by Danetta »

alfadorredux

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2016, 06:06:06 pm »
@kolt54321: As I wrote in that thread, constructive criticism is welcome (even years later).

I admit that there are probably places where the Chrono Helix script could usefully be "dieted down". What I posted was draft 1.5—I went back over each chapter before posting it, but I had no beta reader, and I was more interested in staying in character (as I perceived it) than in being terse. I probably did add more text than I cut. Not much of it is dialogue for Kid, though—Magus was the one who generated masses of stuff. Still, the original Cross script is an infodump-riddled mess (which I expect would have been touched up somewhat if the dev team had had more time), so I don't think what I came up with was much worse.

In addition, I'm not one of those players who projects themself into the character, so to me, a "silent protagonist" is a minus.  However, I do realize that it's a plus to others.

Still, Serge has fewer reactions to what's going on around him than Crono does in Trigger, or at least it feels that way. Just adding more gestures and body language at some critical points would help a lot, if the idea of a Serge who has significant dialog bothers people.

The main reason I brought it up in this thread, though, was because I wrote a lot of alternate character lines for ~20 of the PCs—I was trying to stamp out every generic Member: line where the only difference between the speakers was the accent, and I think I got almost all of them. A good number of them can probably be slid invisibly into the original Cross script.

There are also a lot of optional character-fleshing-out scenes of variable length. Some of those, like the Luccia-Grobyc-Norris and Luccia-Zelbess backstory chunks, are probably a bit ambitious (they'd require additional models or locations), but things like the Sprigg-Radius scene should only require event code and dialogue. (The intent was to produce one scene for each of the ~20 characters I kept, although some of them ended up sharing.)

Anyway, anyone is free to use all, some, or none of the contents of that script—I think I embedded a formal license declaration in the thread somewhere, even.

By the way, I can't open any of the links you posted recently, alfador, I think you missed their http part.

No, it's because I unthinkingly added some quote marks that didn't belong and the forum software overcorrected. My fault for writing the BBCode by hand. It's annoying that it doesn't quite match normal HTML on that point, though.

kolt54321

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2016, 07:24:50 pm »
@alfadorredux: Well, the great part is that more is better than less - taking out text is much easier than having to invent new dialogue.

I didn't really explain myself very well there; I don't think I like the silent protagonist either. I never thought myself as Serge like some people did, and really loved non-silent protagonists like Neku from TWEWY. But I think Serge was a more neutral (and logical) character vs the rest of the cast - the choices I had him walk into are choices I would think he would do. Giving him too much colorful personality so that he becomes just another one of the 45 is something I would personally want to avoid.

What I was thinking of aiming for, is to give him more of a presence in the game (definitely gestures and such), and give him dialogue that everyone can identify with. Make him the neutral man - or at least as neutral as his situation.

The obvious (and probably wrong) choice to do this is to make him the Hero - just like Chrono was in CT. But I think people are going to feel another Superman is fake. What I would suggest is a reasonable path for him, perhaps a bit on the mellow side for a good part of the time, but sparked when needed. People like a reasonable character, and as that he would fit well as the main character.

Personally, I would rather fireworks of emotions - new motivations, intentions, and feelings. But it's not Chrono Cross. I realize that it wouldn't mesh well for the game, at least not for the main character.

Anyway, this is all up for debate, and if we can get this running, there's plenty of time from the humble beginnings to decide whether Serge should adopt a more nuanced personality and personal ambitions as he moves on.

One potential problem I'm seeing from the outset (well, I didn't read the script yet, so you could have solved it) is that it's difficult to create 20 distinct character backgrounds and personalities that don't overlap each other - much less 45. I'm sure I can get it done; I have a lot of source material for tropes from anime to help me out. It's just something to look out for.

Thanks for letting us (me? us? idk) use this!
...But I do feel that it's only half the job - we'd be missing out on the person who created that 22 page mammoth script. For this to work, it would be great to have your help, and it's sorely needed.

So with that said, would you like to join this project? I can't believe I'm "inviting" people when I don't even know if it's possible, or whether Danetta and prizvel want to do this. But if it's happening, I'd love to have you on board. Like you said - a beta reader can be a huge improvement, and I'd love to run some changes to your script by you if you have the time. It  would be great to know what you think. Let me know!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 07:35:24 pm by kolt54321 »

kolt54321

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Re: Chrono Сross Modification
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2016, 07:32:46 pm »
.