Author Topic: Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune  (Read 2340 times)

SilentMartyr

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« on: July 22, 2005, 09:05:35 pm »
I was over at CTNP and derived this explination for how the two interact with the sword.

This is how I see Masa and Mune's connection with the sword:
Masa, Mune, and Doreen are physcial embodiments of Melchior's dreams. The Masamune itself is composed of most likely some steel type metal combined with the Dreamstone. The Dreamstone allows for the transfer of magical energy through the sword and its user. Melchior fused his dreams into the sword in the form of the two beings, Masa and Mune. These beings can exist anywhere outside of the sword, but also have the ability to fuse into the sword. I believe that this is when the sword gains its power.

They can control how much energy actually goes into the sword, but it is also tied into the dreams of the user. If the dreams of the user are similar to the dreams of Melchior then it increases the amount of energy the sword eminates. Obviously one of Melchiors dreams would be the destruction of Lavos. When Frog finally laid his guilt with Cyrus to rest he foucused on the impending task of taking down Lavos.



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frog: !?
Frog: The Masamune?!
Frog: 'Tis flowing with strength and vigor.
[Masamune] Heh heh That's it!
MUNE: That was special!
MASA: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
MUNE: Mucho metaphysical, man.
MASA: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?
MUNE: Now for a yummy, full-on test!
MASA: It's thrashin' time!
Frog: Ahh! 'Tis the true identity of the Masamune!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bolded text shows the mind is involved with the selection of the hero. This hero must have the right mind to carry out the fabled task, not everyone can be the hero. If his/her dreams are sound and ture then the sword will come to its true power.

Edit: Forogt to bold it, heh.

Sentenal

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2005, 10:16:36 pm »
All that sounds good, but I'm not sure if I would say Masa and Mune are physical embodiments of Melchior's dream.  Sprites of the sword, yes, but physical embodiements of dreams, I'm not so sure.  Explain more on that part.

SilentMartyr

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2005, 10:26:50 pm »
Quote
MASA:  We embody Melchior's dreams, sealed, within the knife...


Well I think that right there pretty much does most of the explaning for me. They are sealed to the knife, but obviously still can move around outside of it.

jotabe1789

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2005, 11:00:55 pm »
Like the Genie of Aladdin's lamp?: it can move more or less freely (at least, while fulfilling wishes), but it is still binded to the lamp.

Sentenal

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2005, 12:21:43 am »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Quote
MASA:  We embody Melchior's dreams, sealed, within the knife...


Well I think that right there pretty much does most of the explaning for me. They are sealed to the knife, but obviously still can move around outside of it.


Where did they say that?   :shock:

Daniel Krispin

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2005, 01:33:00 am »
More like echoes and reflections, I would call them. When Melchior first forged the 'Masamune', I do not think he crafted it as a smith in his smithy. Rather, though his mystical means, he almost partitioned it into differant 'colours', like laying out the colours of a colour scheme, all aspect of his own spirit. Masa was his strength and power, Mune his long-studied wisdom, and Doreen his compassion (mightiest, for Melchior as the Guru of life is more compassionate than all others of his order.) Now, this set the basic form of the weapon, and in this it is simply Masa, Mune, and Doreen. It is not a knife, not a sword, it is the three spirits. It can shift places in an instant, or cease to exist physically without suffering a loss of being. When one makes use of it, they make use of the Three in varying degrees, like an artist making use of a pallette of three colours. The amount of each determines the form of the outcome. Crono's will and might in attempting to overcome the Mammon machine - and presumably some measure of knowledge - made use of Masa and Mune. Compassion had no play, so Doreen remained absent (though not truly 'absent' as we understand it. She can be on the other side of a city, and yet still be present in the weapon.) Likewise all who strove against evil. In the end, though, it turned against itself by striving too mightily and at all costs, and abandoning compassion. Thus we come to Chrono Cross and the Mastermune, which finally makes use of all three spirits in a complete spectrum, as it were. But essentially, Melchior in fashioning the thing created Masa and Mune and Doreen as echoes of his own being, each a different aspect of his personality - this is the power of the Dreamstone, to bring into reality that which is hidden, and presumably the wisdom of that fabled smith Melchior knew how to unlock it. As another example, say you were to record your voice, or different aspects of your voice: whisper, normal, and yell. Someone then could come and piece it together in new ways, using the different pitches to make different outcomes of anger, or of fear, but you still set the basic form of it, and it is still your voice. The same goes with Masa and Mune to Melchior. And thus the Masamune to Melchior, for the Masamune is nothing but those three spirits. Anything else is just a physical illusion they create.

Zaperking

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2005, 01:37:51 am »
That doesn't really make sence.

The Red Knife is made of dream stone. The Red Knife becomes the Masamune. The red knife becomes the Masamune because Masa and Mune merge with the knife and Lavos' power to fufill Melchior's wishes to stop Lavos and everything Oo

But the whole "I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within" is probably valid. Until Frog's thing was setteled, the Masamune in a sence was blunt and only became stronger after Frog fufilled his promise to Cyrus or whatever.

Daniel Krispin

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2005, 01:44:33 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
That doesn't really make sence.

The Red Knife is made of dream stone. The Red Knife becomes the Masamune. The red knife becomes the Masamune because Masa and Mune merge with the knife and Lavos' power to fufill Melchior's wishes to stop Lavos and everything Oo

But the whole "I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within" is probably valid. Until Frog's thing was setteled, the Masamune in a sence was blunt and only became stronger after Frog fufilled his promise to Cyrus or whatever.


Actually, it makes perfect sense. The Dreamstone is no normal metal: neither bronze nor steel nor yet adamant. The only reason the Red Knife existed was because of the state of Masa and Mune, and what they chose to make apparent. When confronted with the Mammon machine, Crono's actions were akin to an artist making heavy use of a single or only two colours for a striking effect. It changed the look and purpose of the three spririts. As a physical object, though, neither the Knife nor the Masamune truly exist: note how quickly it comes and disappears in Chrono Cross, or how in both games it can change forms at once. This is because the truth of its being lies behind in a philosophical sense. Take Plato's ideas for this. There are universals that make things what they are: a chair is a chair because there exists a universal concept of a chair. Likewise the Masamune is the Masamune because there exists a universal archetype that makes it 'Masamune'.

Anyway, all what I've said is perfectly in alignment with Chrono Trigger. It also explains why Masa and Mune themselves never change: they are the basic 'colours' of the weapon made by Melchior. That was his act of forging. Like I said, the Dreamstone is a queer substance that can do all sorts of things.

Zaperking

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2005, 07:46:50 am »
oo, Now I get you. I was like "hmmm... What are you trying to say" when I read your first post. Alright, yeah I see your point.

BTW, Doreen really has no connection to the Masamune Oo. But she becomes the key to making the Masamune good once more, in the form of the MasterMune.

But don't you also think that the actual red knife was physical?
Personally I'd have to say that the Red knife was physical and when it came in contact with Lavos, his energy made Masa and Mune physical beings and so they merged with the sword, capable of being in the spiritual world, and the real world.

SilentMartyr

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2005, 11:45:31 am »
Sentenal, that quote was said at the ocean palace on the way to the Mammon Machine.

Dan, you think that the sword does not exist, that it is the three beings just formed into the sword? Then can you explain how Magus broke the sword, and why Masa and Mune seemed unaffected by the break and also did nothing to fix it?

Zaper, that isn't possible. The group sees all three beings much before the ocean palace incident. You see Doreen at Enhasa, and Masa and Mune at Zeal palace.

CatchRBFivy

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2005, 03:36:16 pm »
Quote
Zaper, that isn't possible. The group sees all three beings much before the ocean palace incident. You see Doreen at Enhasa, and Masa and Mune at Zeal palace


i wanted to say that.

Zaperking

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2005, 09:55:32 pm »
Just because they see Doreen there doesn't mean shes part of the sword. Her absence is weird.

The sword is named the Masamune for a reason. Masa for bravery and Mune for knowledge. We never even see Doreen outside Enhasa, or even in the ocean palace.

And don't forget, when Dario fnished fighting, Doreen came out of like now where and woke up Masa and Mune. And also, if you didn't have the Time Egg and you went into Kid's dream, Only Masa and Mune appeared to help.

But if Doreen was ever a part of it, she'd be the spiritual part, that gave strength when Frog settled his thing with Cyrus etc.

SilentMartyr

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2005, 02:14:24 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
Just because they see Doreen there doesn't mean shes part of the sword. Her absence is weird.

The sword is named the Masamune for a reason. Masa for bravery and Mune for knowledge. We never even see Doreen outside Enhasa, or even in the ocean palace.

And don't forget, when Dario fnished fighting, Doreen came out of like now where and woke up Masa and Mune. And also, if you didn't have the Time Egg and you went into Kid's dream, Only Masa and Mune appeared to help.

But if Doreen was ever a part of it, she'd be the spiritual part, that gave strength when Frog settled his thing with Cyrus etc.


I said that in reference to your claim that they were born when the red knife fused with the Mammon Machine's energy. As for where she belongs, I have no clue. I need to play Cross more to be able to form a better hypothesis about her involvement in Trigger.

MogGuy

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2005, 01:46:39 pm »
I always thought that Masa and Mune helped send the knife into the Mammon Machine (notice how they speak right before it goes into the MM?), and the energy of the Mammon Machine fused them with the weapon (Frog: "Th...The...Masamune?!" more or less)

V_Translanka

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Masa and Mune's connection to the Masamune
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2005, 03:47:06 pm »
Well, I for one have never never taken the "We embody Melchior's dreams, sealed, within the knife..." quote as being literal. I have always held this point.

Also, I've always thought that Doreen lies within the Pendant. It makes sense because whenever she's around, so is the Pendant.