Author Topic: Lavos is Real (Theory)  (Read 4411 times)

Satoh

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Lavos is Real (Theory)
« on: January 15, 2014, 03:58:54 am »
Don't let the title confuse you. I'm not mad. Stark? Maybe. Raving? Probably. But mad? No. I'm totally....mostly sane.

So, recall that Dreams are very much real in the chronoverse. If they are strong enough dreams they can take shape and affect the world around them.

Masa, Mune, Doreen, and the Lagoonates from CC are such dreams.
Also, it has been mentioned that we are all a part of the Planet's dream.

My theory is that the reason Lavos exhibits strange temporal behavior, is that it is not part of the dream.
The world we see is part of the dream. All things living in our world are parts of the dream.

Lavos is an outsider. It came from space, outside of the Entity's influence.
As the world is part of the dream, the Gates can be considered moments of lucid dreaming that allow parts of the dream to exit the normal 'dreamspace' to move forward of backward to different memories of the dream.

The dream we are in exists on a separate temporal axis from the Reality that the Entity and Lavos inhabit. Not disconnected from it, but not normally affected by it.

'Lavos space' is actually more akin to how a Dream perceives Reality.

Lavos' appearance marks the beginning of a nightmare for the Entity. Lavos' arrival was a traumatic event in Reality that caused ripples in the Entity's dream, and the frantic panic state forced the Entity's consciousness to exert itself on the dream, creating Gates as it tries to understand what is happening, why, and what to do about it.

There are a few things that this means for us.
Lavos' arrival on the planet, and the eventual apocalypse, the death of the planet, may actually be happening very quickly. We as parts of a dream that intersect Reality but are not part of it experience the death of the planet very differently from the planet itself.

Lavos almost never directly contacts humans or does anything in the world at all really. The reason for this is that Lavos is not keen to the dream's mechanics. Rather than manipulating time as we know it and having strange pocket dimensions, Lavos is actually ignorant that the dream is happening until parts of the dream interfere with it directly.

Understandably Lavos is confused by this, and attacks the strange things it is seeing. Lavos is not extracting DNA from US so much as it is siphoning something of import from the Planet, which is killing it. The planet's fear of this echoes in the dream, which is how we understand it.

Lavos does not directly understand the dream, but it is capable of understanding it and interacting with it. You can sort of imagine we are swirls on the surface of a soap bubble... our whole world is. We never experience the interior of the bubble, the volume of air inside it, not normally. That voluminous space inside and outside of the surface of the bubble are Reality, and we are merely the image on the surface.

Lavos penetrated that bubble from the outside, and is now inside with the Planet, where the Entity exists and has influence. We experienced this incursion as Lavos crashing into the Tyrano Lair. (This is probably one of the few moments we experienced alike with the Planet)
Being inside the bubble, the Entity and Lavos are capable of affecting its surface.
Lavos for the most part doesn't notice the surface, as its goal lies in the volume, where the Planet is.

Being that Lavos and the Entity are both capable of influencing the dream on the bubble's surface, the Entity tries, in brief moments of panic or lucidity, to enlist help from its dream. (Just as a person having a nightmare would seek help from a dream character)

1999 is the realization that the Planet is being attacked, 2300 is the understanding that it is dying. 65mBC-1000AD are for the most part, just different parts of the dream. Dreams are discontiguous. Dreams are mutable.

The Frozen Flame is one of the few direct interferences Lavos and the dream have on each other. Lavos contacting the dream changes the dream; changes us.
The dream becomes aware of Lavos through this, and Zeal is born. Being aware of the Reality outside the dream, though not understanding it, Zeal tries to harness Lavos' power. Lavos is understandably startled when what seemed like an image on a soap bubble, exerts a Real effect on it, and so it destroys Zeal.

So too does it destroy Crono. Crono has exited the surface, (due to the Entity's incredible strength of dream) and entered Reality, to attack Lavos.

I'm sure there's plenty wrong with this theory, but it was an interesting thought I had. It changes things a lot when you consider that instead of Lavos being the exception to logic, we are in fact exceptional to a fictional logic dreamt up by a dying planet whose ken is beyond our capacity to understand.

We are extraordinary dreams of such urgency that we become manifest, if only for the briefest time. It didn't enter our space, we left the dream and experienced Reality for the first time... but we couldn't comprehend it because the common sense of that world was alien to us. So we saw it as strange time outside of time, when it was our time that was strange instead.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2014, 12:57:26 pm »
That's pretty damn good. There's a lot to work with here.

Satoh

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2014, 10:03:56 pm »
The End of Time fits into this as a sort of subconscious aspect of the Dream.
It observes all points in time, yet isn't really a part of them. It is aware of the conscious mind, but doesn't directly contact with it.

Likewise it helps to explain just why there is a limit to the number of people moving through a gate. Perhaps the Entity can only coherently observe 3 individuals moving back and forth through the Dream, while the maintaining the continuity of the Dream.

That is, the Dream has a solid foundation as it is somewhat autonomous, but at the same time the Dream reflects the Entity's state of being. (As dreams do)... and when several characters in the Dream begin doing complicated things, say, 4, the dreamer becomes confused, and the extraneous details (the 4 travelers) wind up receding into the subconscious, so it can sort them out without jeopardizing the Dream.

Just another thought I had. It seems this is all more plausible than I originally thought when I started musing.

Dyxo Xinoro

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2014, 09:45:21 pm »
So then from there, wouldn't the story of Chrono Cross be a "break" in the dream? Something outside of it pulling a part out and having one side of the dream exist in a different place than the other?

And if the Lagoonate's that threaten Marbule are dreams of the Entity, but they only appear on one side, then isn't that an example of one part of the dream being threatened by reality?

It's an interesting idea, I'll say that, but I'm just curious to see if my curiosity can help expand it.

EgyLynx

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 09:34:34 am »
So?
What if Lavos is our planet? What if?

xcalibur

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2014, 02:49:03 am »
in other words, final battle: Lavos vs Wind Fish

Lennis

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 01:35:06 am »
Very interesting thoughts from a fantastical and philosophical viewpoint.  I find myself thinking back on Inception (and perhaps even The Matrix) considering these points.  What constitutes "the real"?

You're also to be commended figuring out a possible explanation to the maximum party size as portrayed in the game.  It's not a device I would use, since it seriously limits character interaction, but it makes me look at Crono's world in a way I hadn't really considered before.

xcalibur

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2015, 03:51:24 am »
I agree, this was a really fascinating angle on the story. It makes complete sense, in a new way.

I must've been in a weird mood, or not sober, when I made that other reply.

ThatGuy

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 04:46:16 pm »
This very old conversation makes me think of Alan Watts, and the Eastern philosophies of the universe.

CCrossSerg

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 09:05:17 pm »
At first I was thinking this might be stretching a bit, but the more I read the more I was like holy moly..

PrincessNadia78

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Re: Lavos is Real (Theory)
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2018, 07:08:33 pm »
This is definitely going to give me something to sleep on tonight. This is so interesting!!