Author Topic: Happy Liberty Day!  (Read 1233 times)

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Happy Liberty Day!
« on: July 04, 2013, 01:25:18 pm »
Hey all!

Just wanted to say Happy Fourth of July to those of us here in the States. Happy Canada Day, too, for our Canadian friends (sorry, I know it's a few days late).

Those of us here in the States... Please remember your constitutional rights. I encourage you to challenge the ways that your rights are being circumvented (Fourth Amendment rights, in particular, considering all the recent NSA leaks; although this includes First Amendment rights as well).

There are a variety of peaceful protests going on today, the supposed day of Liberty, all across the nation: "Restore the Fourth." If you feel up to standing and representing your distaste and disappointment with the current political affairs, I encourage you to participate. Better yet, I encourage you to contact your local Congressperson and politely tell them your thoughts. A quick Google search will give you their office number(s) so you can do so.

Please do not sit idly at the computer and complain online; this activity will do little to project your voice. Rather, take matters into your own hands and be an active agent of change. I'm not saying to do anything stupid, I'm just saying, well... change requires action.

Let your voice be heard.


[youtube]sa6tQm5suf4[/youtube]

idioticidioms

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2013, 02:46:51 pm »
I agree, Boo; but I'm not as nice or as quiet about it, lol.

posted this in other places:

F*** the 4th. It's not like any of you actually knows what freedom is; it's not like you have it. What's the point of celebrating something you don't have and are too chickenshit to fight for? Hey, but go ahead and light off your fireworks because, damn, it sure does look pretty, don't it?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2013, 05:05:00 pm »
My frustrations are by how many people will TALK about their frustrations and will turn to the internet (forums, Reddit, etc) and bemoan the situation without doing anything to change the situation. Talk is cheap.

idioticidioms

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2013, 09:10:32 pm »
yeah, not everybody is in a position to do something, nor do people always have the resources or the means. Some people, all they can do is raise peoples awareness to things online or in other aspects of life. You have to consider that millions of people around the world use the internet on a daily basis, doing various things. It's the best platform of all past eras combined. Perhaps a person can reach through words on a virtual front a person who is more capable or more resourceful.

I agree that there are a lot of people for whom this is not so and they should do more instead of talking as much as they do, however, some people honestly do as much as they can do.

And, I think it should be over-looked because when the group as a whole is ready to move, it will move. Think of migrating birds that will flock to powerlines and trees and other sources to gather in number. Many will take short test flights, gauging the group and many will sit there cawing and then finally, when the group is ready to move, the majority of them will not need communication; it will be something they all feel as one. We humans are not so different. A lot of what's going on is the talking and the test flights before the group takes off as one to make their move.

Thought

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2013, 01:08:59 pm »
Idioticidioms, you're on the internet. Clearly this means you have the resources to write a letter to your senator and representative.

The problem with talk is that usually it's a replacement for doing, not a precursor to. Humans, we're like monkeys, and you know what they say about monkeys: monkey see, monkey do.

@Boo, I haven't yet been able to fully process my emotional response. First, I'm disturbed that corporations had this info ready to hand over to the government. I trust businesses far less, and they have far fewer restrictions already. Essentially, I view the data as already illegally obtained by the time it came into the government's hands. It kind of feels like we're being made to swallow a greater injustice (corporations collecting this data) by rejecting a lesser one (the government getting it from them). But then, as you said, this is related to the 4th Amendment. But then again, the government didn't illegally take anything from a citizen directly, nor did they hire anyone to do that on their behalf. It's more of that the government is taking advantage of a previously performed illegal search and seizure, and not punishing those responsible. Bleh, as I said, I still haven't fully processed how I feel about that.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:16:17 pm by Thought »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2013, 02:02:21 pm »
@Thought: That may be the way the government spins the situation. They are the receiver, not the facilitator. Never-the-less, it's a difficult situation.

I'm quite disenchanted by the political arena in our nation. The bipartisan party system is a failure (Republicans care too much about the top earners, the Democrats care too much about the bottom earners, leaving the majority of us in the middle - like myself - in a sort of limbo... also, that's an oversimplification, but hopefully enough of an analogy to make my point). Congress is a joke. Just look at how they handled the student loans going up... and by handling it I mean they did absolutely nothing. They just allowed it to happen. Big banks that participate in illegal and high-risk behavior can get a government loan for next to nothing - under 1 percent. While the hardworking American citizen now is forced to ensure a 6.8% student loan... all the while Obama pushes for a more educated work force. Preferential treatment is all around - corporations treated as people, money being in our elections (super PACs, etc), and rampart non-profit abuse (I'm looking at you religious institutions, the NFL, etc). This government favors the all-mighty dollar and nothing else.

That being said, I'm highly thankful for the degree of freedom for which I am granted. That can't be said everywhere in the world. I have three meals a day (and plus some), two cars, a house, and stability. I do not fear invasion or being kidnapped or murdered. I could have it so much more.

I guess I'm not angry, more disappointed. We could have it so much better, yet we choose to be this skewed, poor excuse for tolerance and freedom. It's a fallacy.

Thought

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2013, 03:33:21 pm »
Oh, I'm fairly sure that's just how my mind spins the situation. I have a tendency to look for (and be very interested in) distinctions that other people don't really care about. You should hear me talk about the lyrics in popular music, sometime ;)

As for economics, I've found that I've become far more liberal over the years in that regard. While the Democrats do often ignore the middle class, if feels like Republicans often actively attack them instead. I like to say that the Republicans shoved me, kicking and screaming, out of the party with their behavior. And businesses! Good god, those things are usually engaging in self-defeating practices, all so a few people at the top can make a few bucks before the entire thing comes crashing down.

idioticidioms

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2013, 03:47:35 pm »
Idioticidioms, you're on the internet. Clearly this means you have the resources to write a letter to your senator and representative.

don't you think you're being just a bit naive? Do you honestly think letters to your governor or representative actually make a difference? Keep sending your letters, though, cause obviously they listen to those. Did you know that the government hones into and watches every bit of the internet that interests them? They have google and other search engines; even stumbleupon; a firefox addon; that sorts things into labeled sections and they pay attention to the people who speak against the government. Any post made that is anarchic in nature; every conspiracy theorist; every possible 'terrorist' that may become a threat to them. It's easier to watch your own country than other countries, especially when you have the internet working for you or with you to provide you with the backdoors necessary to be able to do such a thing.

That's why I laugh at the people getting upset over the drones. Google Earth is just the public version of technology that allows them perfect up-to-the-minute viewing of street-level occurrences. They could easily look in your living room windows from space; your cell phones, landlines, all go through operators or satellites that are always monitored, though there is a lot less evidence of that now than there has been in the past, when they had the old-fashioned operator system for the phones.

How many people do you think have sent letters, or voiced their concerns in areas where the government is all too attentive? If the people in charge were so willing to give up power as to listen to what the people passive-aggressively had to say about them having their power, then a lot of our history would be different.

Boo had it right when he said that nothing will change until people make it change; and you don't make shit change by talking about it or sending words to other people; that's just the pre-cursor, and people have already been doing that for ages. You change shit by acting without words and that will be the future. Do you even realize we're at war right now? I know it's not the war people think of when they think of war; it's a lot different and a lot of it is waged on a technological front rather than a physical one, though it is waged physically, as well.

The problem is that people in general are apathetic and lazy and have been made that way by the government and the luxuries they afford us; by the time we wake up and get moving, it will probably be too late and a lot of people are going to have to hurt way more than they would have had to otherwise.

Do you honestly think that sending letters to these government officials is going to be enough to free us from the slavery this system places on our heads? Do you think it will free us from being slaves to others greed or our own greed? I look at a future possibility wherein everyone is able to live in peace and harmony and technology blooms alongside of morality and decency. That is an impossibility as long as people hold on to greed and the shallow things we've exalted in society today and for the past few thousand years.

Do you honestly think they will stop polluting and destroying the planet for their own gain? Do you think they'll stop killing animals and plants simply for 'getting in the way'? Do you honestly think that if you managed to change one politicians mind and reawaken in them guilt and shame that they will be able to do that with the rest of the politicians, aging, young and in-the-middle?

Do you honestly think that saving our entire world; our species; every species of life on this planet; every bit of respect that has died and gone away between men; every lost bit of honour and nobility that existed in bygone days people only remember in stories; can be reduced to simply sending letters and having them listened to?

No, the real time for beautiful words is yet to come. We need a giant catalyst first, and people are so willfully adding to it, because so many people are just so sick and tired of everything. But send your letters; we need those, too. We need as many people to be aware of what's going on and for what reasons so that when it finally does come about and their eyes are forcefully opened, they don't run around panicking for too long and can adequately act not just in their own best interests, but in the best interests of the collective.

Thought

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2013, 02:56:05 pm »
don't you think you're being just a bit naive? Do you honestly think letters to your governor or representative actually make a difference?

Actually, yes, and there’s lovely proof of that in the form of SOPA being defeated. See, even if you assume that the government is entirely corrupt (it’s not, but let’s assume), its members would still follow their own interest. That is, they would want to get reelected. If they believe something is a swing issue, they’ll do their best to make sure that the swing is in their favor by appeasing the masses. By writing letters, you’re letting them know what the masses want.

Did you know that the government hones into and watches every bit of the internet that interests them?

First, that’s a non sequitur.

Second, the government doesn’t. Every month, 85 billion hours of internet use are logged. Even assuming that every government employee, from the janitor to the president, was spending every work week monitoring the internet, they would only cover 25 million hours. Or, in other words, 0.029% of total use. We call that “statistically insignificant.” At that level, the government wouldn’t even be able to find more than the tinniest sliver of the slimmest fraction of internet activity that would interest them.

Google Earth is just the public version of…

Your tinfoil hat is showing. Essentially, everything you suggested is either impossible (looking into your living room window from space: only if your window is also on the roof) or impractical (the above noted difficulty of monitoring all information traffic).

… people have already been doing that for ages.

They’ve also been succeeding for ages. They do more than that, certainly, but given that you’re original stance (which you’ve nicely retreated from) was to do nothing but “talk,” writing a letter is a simple and proven effective improvement.

 
… by the time we wake up … Do you honestly think that if you managed to change one politicians mind and reawaken in them guilt and shame… We need as many people to be aware of what's going on and for what reasons so that when it finally does come about and their eyes are forcefully opened…  the best interests of the collective.

You’re parroting classic conspiracy theorist rhetoric. The problem with that rhetoric is the “sleep/awake” dichotomy. It dismisses the reality that different people can interpret the same situation differently: if a person doesn’t agree, hook line and sinker, with the conspiracy theorist’s flawed perspective, then that individual is labeled as being “asleep” or a “sheeple” and dismissed, out of hand, as someone who, on a fundamental level, lacks the ability to perceive and rightly judge the world. This worldview also (as displayed in your text) lends itself to violent speech (people being forced to see the “world” through a particular perspective). Essentially, this justifies violence against such individuals, as it can be excused in the name of “awakening them to the truth.” Luckily, you’ll rarely find a lazier group of humans than conspiracy theorists, so outbursts of physical violence is rare.

Now, I am not faulting your statements with the above noted flawed, but I am pointing out that the rhetorical tradition you are tapping into comes with significant baggage and pitfalls which (hopefully) you’re merely unaware of.

idioticidioms

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2013, 03:30:12 pm »
don't you think you're being just a bit naive? Do you honestly think letters to your governor or representative actually make a difference?

Actually, yes, and there’s lovely proof of that in the form of SOPA being defeated. See, even if you assume that the government is entirely corrupt (it’s not, but let’s assume), its members would still follow their own interest. That is, they would want to get reelected. If they believe something is a swing issue, they’ll do their best to make sure that the swing is in their favor by appeasing the masses. By writing letters, you’re letting them know what the masses want.

Did you know that the government hones into and watches every bit of the internet that interests them?

First, that’s a non sequitur.

Second, the government doesn’t. Every month, 85 billion hours of internet use are logged. Even assuming that every government employee, from the janitor to the president, was spending every work week monitoring the internet, they would only cover 25 million hours. Or, in other words, 0.029% of total use. We call that “statistically insignificant.” At that level, the government wouldn’t even be able to find more than the tinniest sliver of the slimmest fraction of internet activity that would interest them.

Google Earth is just the public version of…

Your tinfoil hat is showing. Essentially, everything you suggested is either impossible (looking into your living room window from space: only if your window is also on the roof) or impractical (the above noted difficulty of monitoring all information traffic).

… people have already been doing that for ages.

They’ve also been succeeding for ages. They do more than that, certainly, but given that you’re original stance (which you’ve nicely retreated from) was to do nothing but “talk,” writing a letter is a simple and proven effective improvement.

 
… by the time we wake up … Do you honestly think that if you managed to change one politicians mind and reawaken in them guilt and shame… We need as many people to be aware of what's going on and for what reasons so that when it finally does come about and their eyes are forcefully opened…  the best interests of the collective.

You’re parroting classic conspiracy theorist rhetoric. The problem with that rhetoric is the “sleep/awake” dichotomy. It dismisses the reality that different people can interpret the same situation differently: if a person doesn’t agree, hook line and sinker, with the conspiracy theorist’s flawed perspective, then that individual is labeled as being “asleep” or a “sheeple” and dismissed, out of hand, as someone who, on a fundamental level, lacks the ability to perceive and rightly judge the world. This worldview also (as displayed in your text) lends itself to violent speech (people being forced to see the “world” through a particular perspective). Essentially, this justifies violence against such individuals, as it can be excused in the name of “awakening them to the truth.” Luckily, you’ll rarely find a lazier group of humans than conspiracy theorists, so outbursts of physical violence is rare.

Now, I am not faulting your statements with the above noted flawed, but I am pointing out that the rhetorical tradition you are tapping into comes with significant baggage and pitfalls which (hopefully) you’re merely unaware of.

1. SOPA was defeated, yes. Did it make a difference? not really.

2. Dude, they don't watch or read everything. That would be plain insane. What they do is have bots go through and tag something based on key words, pictures, phrases, etc. When the bots get done tagging everything with neat little labels, another bot goes through and ties like things together with like things so that someone can access it nicely and neatly, or multiple someones. When I was playing a political game on another message board, the person in charge of the little government we had went through and coded something that allowed him to view all of our private messages on one page, and he had people assigned to watching it for keywords and phrases, to see if anyone was working against him; some times he played them against each other or would manipulate peoples emotions to get them to do what he wanted them to.

But that was small-time stuff. What the government does is have a set group of people watching anything labeled as 'Anarchic', which is quite a lot of stuff on a daily basis and is hard to keep up with; not saying they keep up with it perfectly or that all shit is labeled perfectly. It's probably not and they probably can't, but it doesn't mean they don't try.

3. What do you think plugs into satellites? Everything from cell phones to traffic cams. What do you think Google Earth uses to show us everything? Satellites. Do you think that people with power are going to share that power with everyone so they could all be equal? Or, do you think; and this is highly more likely; that people with power will only show a small amount of that power to the public and only share a small amount of that power, so that people can only guess at what they really have. What better way to keep control of the world? It doesn't take a tin foil hat to recognize how bad people can be. I simply don't underestimate anyone, especially those who can afford to buy the best of anything in the world, including people; and keep it all under wraps until they decide to expose it, though; as I said; they aren't perfect. But, they ARE learning from their mistakes.

4. Do I look like I give a gnat's ass what you think of what I have to say? If you're too dense to see what is perfectly possible and plausible, then that's your priority. You want to believe the government is working in the best interests of the people despite all of the evidence to the contrary, so be it. If you want to sit here and look down your nose at me all because you think you're better than me or because you know more, then so fucking be it. That makes you the fool. You think that just because you win some things on a public level; like SOPA; that it means something, when it doesn't. I don't care if you see it or not or if you feel like arguing it. You want to believe in the system, then go right ahead.

The only baggage I carry is that I see the world for the insanity it actually is. Do I say it's impossible to reach a person or two with letters? No. I said it was impossible to change everything with letters. And everything is what is needed to be changed. The way we do things is highly faulty and we waste time frittering around over words and letters and bullshit instead of actually doing something about it; and you know what the biggest problem is, there? People don't want to act alone because they've already seen what happened to the others that did; made into terrorists and psychotic figureheads against their will.

You go back and look at history and watch the march of progress; it's not the smartest, or the most moral, or the strongest that rises to the top; it's the one most able to adapt; and frankly, that doesn't leave much room for honesty or anything other than stepping all over people and using them. But, it's all working people against each other so they don't stand together against them; because that is their inevitable downfall. You go back and watch the cycle of events within human history and you will know we're coming on a time of revolution; and if you think we can just take our freedoms back without violence, when so many people in this world refuse to listen to reason and sense and logic, then you deserve the fate you inevitably get.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2013, 04:50:10 pm »
If more legitimate cause for concern is desired (outside of environmental destruction), this is a wonderful article: http://jacobinmag.com/2011/12/four-futures/

My bet's sadly on exterminism. Labor always was an economic asset to be managed, and this silly system in theory depends on full employment to achieve a certain equality. When labor is no longer needed and unemployment is rampant, the system fails, and you end up with a lot of deadweight of no use to those who own the means of production. Human rights only go so far as their economic value allows.

Thought

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 06:17:34 pm »
What they do is have bots go through and tag something based on key words, pictures, phrases, etc.

We generate 2.5 quintillion bytes of data every day. Simply running through that much data is beyond any government. Tagging and correlating it is effectively impossible, but even if a government could do that, it’d produce something far too large to be useable by a person.

 
If you're too dense to see what is perfectly possible and plausible, then that's your priority.

You’ll note that I predicted your response by describing the response of conspiracy theorists to individuals who disagree with them. Though to be fair, I should have been more thorough and mentioned the high level of defensiveness and quick retreat to logical fallacies.

Do I say it's impossible to reach a person or two with letters? No.

Feel free to perform a verbal contortion act, but actually, yes, that is what you said:

Do you honestly think letters to your governor or representative actually make a difference?

People don't want to act alone because they've already seen what happened to the others that did; made into terrorists and psychotic figureheads against their will.

Name two such individuals who have been made into terrorists or psychotic figureheads.

… it's the one most able to adapt; and frankly, that doesn't leave much room for honesty or anything other than stepping all over people and using them.

http://academia.edu/1297450/Does_it_take_one_to_know_one_Endorsement_of_conspiracy_theories_is_influenced_by_personal_willingness_to_conspire

The implication of that study is that people attribute to others the behaviors that they themselves would be willing to engage in. Or, in other words, individuals who believe that others are willing to step on and use people are themselves likely to be willing to do the same.

Speaking as a trained historian, the civilizations that are the most vibrant and that last the longest are the ones where the common good is held above the individual good. It’s the loyalty to the individual or familial good that is indicative of a culture in decline or in a dark age.

Also, speaking as a historian, food shortages are a key component of revolutions. America is currently not experiencing a famine (although we’re about a single pandemic away because of poor farming practices), so revolution becomes much less likely. Another important component is the rapid decline of social welfare programs (specifically, those that result in economically induced famine). It’s not bread and circus that keeps a population from revolting, it’s bread alone.

… and if you think we can just take our freedoms back without violence…

What, you mean like the end of DOMA? Or the success of Women’s Suffrage and the Civil Rights movement? Yeah, we totally can secure our freedoms nonviolently.

idioticidioms

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 09:55:52 pm »
You're not understanding... it isn't a single group or person running it all. Google and Yahoo and other search engines run their bots to catalog websites, etc. that are ran through their listings, which is how stuff is ran through their listings. websites like facebook collect user data and blogging websites like blogger collect user data as well; in fact a lot of websites do, so they can target audiences with ad placement designed directly for the person viewing the page or website. All of this is done through correspondence on a virtual front with little human interaction whatsoever. Information is traded between websites, cataloging each website, every page, into categories and all information into usable snippets. It wasn't done all at once, either, but separately and bit by bit. Over time, companies have come together to share information applicable to them, and the government is a company, too. They get in touch with search engines like google and say 'hey, you see any of this type of information rolling through, we'd like to see it and we'd be willing to pay this much for it.' They go through and do that for a lot of the over-arching web presences that tie everything together and they get a pretty sizeable amount of information at their fingertips. It's a lot of information, but far less than the overall amount, and all the work put into gathering it into one place is already done. Put a few more programs in place to sort it out into the categories they make up and assign groups to each category. At which point, they have effectively broken down a ton of information into bits and pieces that the people looking for it never really put together unless they somehow manage to break down barriers to come together on, but the odds of that happening drop with every mistake the government makes and learns from. All those bits and pieces are then stream-lined from those people up the chain to another group of people tasked with sifting through and summarizing the most important parts of that information; broken down into what's most important for that agency. In turn, those summarizations are sent to another person or group which is tasked with summarizing that into an overall briefing for the person in charge. There could be any number of these groups tasked with summarizing, but it all goes back to a central figure.

It's entirely possible. We've only been pushing humanity forward into larger population for the past couple thousand years, and into more of an ignorant population for the past couple centuries at the least.

See, what you're doing now is playing the intellectual and saying that you knew in advance something only too easily predicted. You challenge peoples beliefs and their ideas and there's bound to be friction. As I said, I care little about what you think of me and I'm pretty vocal about my frustrations, because I see things pretty clearly, but by the time I go to talk about them, words don't always cut it; thoughts turn up short; because language is a faulty means of communication at best; but as much as it frustrates me, it pushes me on to be able to communicate what I wish to. I'm not a perfect person and I don't pretend to be, though I put far more effort into it than most.

I can see where this is all perfectly possible and plausible, but can I communicate that to you if you choose to disregard certain points, or if your imagination is not expanded far enough to see around the corner that has you stymied? Can I show you what other people are capable of when they choose to be so subtle and manipulative about it. because they've learned the necessity of doing so because it comes down to simple survival and their kind don't survive long when their secrets are out in the open and people know what they're doing. They've had a lot of teachers, the same as people who choose to be good will always find teachers.

The Aurora Colorado Shooter; who was approached by the FBI while he was in College due to his brilliance and then later made into a terrorist to push forth issues regarding gun rights, which they have since done.

The Boston Bombers who were first counted as Russian, then Czechs, then Islamist extremists who just so happen to write down things on their boat that the revolutionist-american would be entirely sympathetic, which ties into something I heard on Youtube from the Canadian secretary of Defence about a plot between world governments, and aliens, involving a planned revolution for todays youth so that they have something noble and right to fight for, all the while those in the shadows of the planning want to keep their overall control by running the money. Now, I didn't go so far as to ascertain that it was really the Canadian Secretary of Defence; I kind of took it on faith that it would be completely noticed as a hoax otherwise. Anonymous plays a part in this as well, you can tell by how their symbology tends to match up to that of supposed secret orginizations such as the Illuminati, how some of their mottos coincidentally match religious prophecy.

Even 9/11; when you go back and look at the initial reports and then the evidence after, it doesn't add up to anything other than an inside job.

In fact, each of these situations has tell-tale signs that flag them as 'funny'. With the Boston Bombers, the initial reports that came in glared strikingly with the official reports that came a bit later; same as back in the 1940's-1950's when they told the press about the alien ship that crash-landed, before they were officially told to clam up. In the others, the evidence just doesn't add up. 9/11 had burn marks and building breaks in impossible places for them to have come down the way they did simply by being rammed by a plane. With the Aurora Colorado shooter, nobody noticed the large brown boxes of ammo being delivered; nobody noticed his studies and grades slipping; a college that prides itself on taking notice of their students and catching them when they slip just disregard one of their most brilliant while they slip? I looked into some of the studies he was doing leading up to what he did, and it was genius.

What type of person with that much going for them just up and decide to change things like that?

A couple years back, a military group was found trying to poison the apple orchards in Washington State. They took full blame for it and said they acted on their own, but if they truly believed what they were doing to be right, they would have taken the blame as good soldiers; and even if they didn't, they would have had their orders and even though things have changed and people now have the option of not following orders if they feel their commander to be in the wrong, not too many really feel at liberty to do so.

Yeah, and that's why people think I'm a piece of shit, because of fallible thinking like that. I can imagine it and say it, therefore I am what I'm talking about because people simply 'attribute to others the behaviors that they themselves would be willing to engage in.' People assume that's what I'm doing, when in reality it's because I've seen these things in practice or I've seen things like them in practice. From what I see of man, I know what man is capable, on both ends.

From what I see of history, there are long periods of seeming peace, but the true peace is very short-lived. People don't bother fighting when things are seemingly going their way. It always starts with a benevolent ruler who does well by his people throughout his lifespan. (or her, as the case may be). Right after their life is over, or during their life if they stepped down and let someone else take the reigns, things start falling apart. Not always right away, but everyone has a different agenda or different way of going about things, and after so much time has passed, people tend to forget why they fought for a revolution, as those who were alive are alive no longer and the generations of people that came after had nothing real to make them as wary or as knowledgeable as their predecessors, thus allowing corruption to have its foothold time and again.

After the short periods of peace, the governments or kingdoms would inevitably turn to stamping out peoples rights, capitalizing on fear to do so and offering protection. Some times it was benevolent, but often it wasn't; because as people gave more control over to these people; the more those people took advantage, because it's very rare for someone to come along with the ability to not be corrupted by power and to continually keep themselves in check; and history definitely shows that. Some times, people in power acted swiftly, much to their own detriment, but as time went on and people learned from others mistakes, as truly intelligent people began to take the power, they realized it was better to work slowly, to get people apathetic and in the midst of luxury.

The true cultures to stand the test of time where those who were able to overcome anything, and it didn't matter how big they were or how glorious their accomplishment. What history doesn't show too well is the subtle and cunning nature of man to infiltrate and corrupt and take over. All you need is a single man to do it, if you play your cards right. In the modern age, press has a lot to do with it; make someone look bad for the people to see and bam, you take their thunder.

Revolution has occurred a lot for various reasons, but you would be right that food and famine would be the most notable, simply because it's one of the necessities of life. Man can come to deal with a lot of treatment, varying from good to bad, but cut him off from what he needs to survive and you have yourself an enemy. It was never the only reason, just one of the major reasons. People can be indoctrinated to almost any type of living; they can be broken and made to deal with just about anything; even to see modern society as sane and logical when it's anything but.

People are dead inside in this day and age for various reasons. Some people think they're alive, but they haven't really experienced enough life to truthfully say so; haven't had their spirit broken as far as it can go and drag themselves back up bit by bit.

Are you really going to sit there and tell me that Women are equal to men in society, or that because gay people can marry in certain states that they're considered equal? They fought to compromise on stupidity, nothing more. A lot of people don't want to be equal; they want to be better. Only when you're behind do you settle for equality. Gays can marry, but what does marriage even mean anymore? Nothing that it used to be mean; it's all just bullshit tax forms and benefits and many people who get one don't even know what love actually is. Women have the right to vote, but they don't get paid the same as men do in every state; nor are they allowed into every profession. When's the last time you saw womens football on tv or a woman astronaut? Women control the state I live in; it's easy for them to screw someone over if they want to, by lying and making a man out to be evil. I've seen them go from straight out raging bitch to calm and sweet and innocent as can be. And it's not just women who do it; because men have been doing it for quite some time, too.

What freedoms do people really have? You fight for something to be put down on paper, you fight in non-physical methods against people who are simply too rigid, with their head too far up their own ass. What you wind up with is a compromise nobody really wanted and what was originally fought for was forgotten, because they now have something they fought pretty viciously for and they better make use of it because of how hard they fought, regardless of if its right or wrong and regardless of if they even want it.

You know what gay peoples main driving force is for legalizing marriage? Having the same financial benefits as man/woman couples. A lot of them will say it's to show that they love each other, the symbolism, but there's countless different ways to do this; they could make their own. I've always said, 'let them have marriage, because it doesn't mean a damn thing anymore,' but to be honest, I would have liked to see them fight for something better, to really put weight behind their words that they wanted to show the world what love actually was.





the majority of people will always follow the path of least resistance, until they see what the end holds in store for them. Then, they will fight and squirm to get off the path to take another; some will manage, but the majority will be doomed to know that they are dead before they're actually so. The path of least resistance in life is to give in to petty behavior and greed and other base sins and society only makes it easier for people to do so, because the more you let go of your inhibitions, the further you go; because they don't want heroes getting in the way and waking people up again; they want their sheep sleeping and content in their stalls. People will fight adamantly against anyone coming along and trying to do so, because it makes them more keenly aware of the lives they live and how fragile their illusions are.

I see around me a world of ignorance that exists on purpose while an elite few take the reins of history and guide mankind as they see fit; using our greed and baser natures against us to keep us in line by keeping ourselves in line by fighting amongst each other, blaming each other; hating and detesting each other for the differences of our beliefs and ideas rather than loving each other for the things that make us so similar; having understanding to look beyond the mistakes to see the person, instead of the monster.

I am neither petty, nor am I like the majority of people. I see the world around me and it gives me more incentive to be different, to be the outsider; the underdog fighting impossible odds. I don't just see things in others that I only see because those things are in me; I check that list before even proceeding, because I've learned to be honest with myself and harsh at times and to keep myself from slipping; because nobody else is going to do it for me. When people say things about me, some times I get a bit agitated and react with thinking, but I generally like to think about what they say in detail and analyze myself for any truth.

And granted, I'm not perfect; I'm sure there's mistakes I make that I don't catch myself in; I know I shove my foot in my mouth at times unintentionally only to later reflect and realize it. However, I catch myself in things that nobody else can catch me in. I fight every day to be a good person and to live up to what I say and what I expect from others. It's not easy, in fact, it's killing me faster; but not as fast as if I didn't deal with it at all. Stress and anxiety, amongst other things, have screwed my stomach up a lot, and the surrounding area. I'm tough because I have to be; hard because everything soft has been beaten down; am a soldier, not by choice, but by being thrust into the middle of a war a lot of people don't acknowledge or even notice. I'm a little crazy, but who isn't? I'm a genius, but if I say I'm a genius, people think I'm bragging or being egotistical. I'm a loner and an outcast and society has made me this way, as it has made those who taught me to be this way and those who taught them in turn.

Even if I were catapulted to the top right now, I wouldn't change who I am or what I'm about. I've fought too hard for it and I'm still fighting hard. If I were in a position to help people, I would; if I was in a position to fight against the tyranny that exists in the world; I would; and I do in the manner that I'm able. I've been in many different places, talking to many different people; from one end of the internet to the other. What I always find, though, is that when I talk simply of philosophy; something I enjoy doing, but only get to do rarely; or spread a message of peace and understanding; or to open peoples eyes to a very real possibility that they scoff at in ignorance, I am met with hostility almost every time.

People attack me and, worst yet, they attack the places I'm in and the other people that are there, and blame it on me. I could be sitting there and having a conversation about how everything in life is a mosaic within a mosaic and that every detail makes up a piece of that mosaic; the piece being another mosaic in itself made up of even tinier details, and each mosaic in turn becomes another piece in a larger mosaic. Someone would find fault with that somehow. In one place, someone did, and they attacked me for filling up their chat with stupid shit they didn't want to see; started arguing and purposefully being close-minded so as to make me frustrated with them and ruin the conversation. They would accuse me of being the center of attention when I had never meant to be. I get excited and caught up in what I'm discussing and tend to do it without even noticing.

Every time politics gets involved, I run across this sort of brick wall and I  have been made into the bad guy in quite a few communities due to the successful nature of it and how well they can drag you off topic and make you explode. I've always reacted easily to being bullied and shit like that and I wear my heart on my sleeve. It used to be simplicity itself to get me to fall for it, but I've learned quite a bit over the years I've been alive. And some times, it's entirely my fault because I get going and I don't fully read what I'm responding to; something I'm working on; and the whole matter gets confused.

I've been called a lot of names and a lot of things; both good and bad, some for the right reasons and some for the wrong reasons and it's not a clear line. There's a lot people get away with because shit can't be 'proven'. I'm honest with and about myself, which makes me an easy target. Just As much as some people hate me; others admire me.

But, the journey isn't just about me; though it helps me a lot as I live from day to day; it's about other people and when the two worlds collide in such a way as to allow me to help them a bit because they're going through something I'm familiar with; or at least familiar with the corresponding emotion that goes with.

Name me one freedom we've actually secured through non-violence that doesn't have a ton of strings attached to make it all complicated and worthless.

One day, mankind will have both freedom of the mind and freedom of the body. Sadly, that day is not today and I may have been born too soon with my messages of freedom, considering how many people simply don't want to admit that they're slaves, nor do they wish to take personal responsibility or accountability for their own actions and their own involvement.

When I die, if there is a Hell, I fully expect to be cast into it. I have no delusions of going to Heaven, even though I view myself to be a good person and continually strive to do better. It's kind of hazy and it doesn't really matter to me. My life has been Hell and I still stand here and fight to live against all odds. I honestly don't think I'm good enough for Heaven if it exists. I have these fantasies of being Jesus and saving the world; some times to the point where it's entirely believable that I am; to the point where I believe it at times, until I make another mistake and remember how human I am. Sacrilege.

Freedom from the inner struggle; freedom from the baser things that drag us down and make us into lesser beings; freedom from temptation; freedom from sadness and despair, where the worst you feel is a gentle melancholy; freedom to live our lives and make mistakes without being judged; freedom to learn from those mistakes and even further, to learn the right things from those mistakes because other people are similarly free and free to help us learn and move on; freedom from enslavement; from money and greed; from power struggles and politics; from popularity contests; from bullying; from everything negative in the world; Free to view the world with optimism and hope and the belief that we exist as a species not for the destruction of everything including ourselves, but for the small little things that make the days worthwhile; to make everything better by our presence no matter the cost to ourselves, because we know our 'selves' to be limited to a small frame of time and that others will come after.

Freedom in general is what I fight for, and you can make the case all day that our Government gives us freedoms or that freedoms can be won without violence; you can say that we're free and we're the best off in the world; but it doesn't make any of it true; it does not magically grant freedom; it's just a means of keeping an illusion that you've already begun to see around.

Words. All of it just words. And what do they mean? Nothing? Everything? Nobody can seem to make up their mind on that. When you feel like cutting back some of the insanity placed inside of you by society, you may begin to see the truth: That whether or not what I say is exactly true or not, our government does conspire to keep us enslaved and we do have reason still to fight for freedom and independence in a violent and physical manner; should it come to that. I'm not saying we just drop everything and go apeshit on a motherfucker. I've been telling people to go and demand their freedom and if they are denied it, to then fight for it.

I don't know about you, but I want every bit of my freedom regardless of how 'unsafe' the world around me will become without the protection of some large corporation that nobody can keep in check except the entire population enslaved by that corporation banding together through joint struggles. And that's all the Government is anymore: a giant corporation seeking to keep itself alive and looking out for its own interests, not its peoples.

I will make a mark on this world and it will extend beyond my death and whether that mark will be for good or bad, only time will tell; but I'm going to make it anyway and suffer whatever consequences come my way. Why? because it's in my nature.

Thought

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 04:52:31 pm »
Even 9/11.../quote]

A truther. Right.

For any else following this, allow me to say that there are two main reasons to oppose conspiracy theories. The fact that they are false is potent in itself, but it's how that falsehood manifests in the real world that is troublesome. It's a distraction: conspiracy theories present false solutions to problems that need a real answer.

Consider corruption in government. Conspiracy theories take an us vs them mentality: there's a evil group ruining everything for the rest of us. We're innocent, it's all "their" fault, but if we can eliminate "them," then everything will be fine. However, the solution to government corruption isn't to blame "them" and remove "them" (violently) from power, but rather to elect moral candidates, to push through forceful campaign finance reform, to exterminate corporate influence in politics, etc.

idioticidioms

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Re: Happy Liberty Day!
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2013, 09:29:52 pm »
Can you prove that it's not true? I didn't think so. Don't disdain against a conspiracy theory just because you believe it to be ludicrous. It's highly possible and history supports it, which is why you didn't have much to say in terms of history after I snubbed your original argument regarding it.

Conspiracy theorists take an 'us vs. them' mentality. Not just conspiracy theorists, but almost every human. Very few people want to wake up and take personal responsibility or accountability for their own actions or for their part in everything around them. The theories themselves exist as they are, some of them tainted with the biased perspective of the individual who comes up with them, sure.

Humanities biggest enemy is itself and I will never say any differently. The fact is that it is impossible to get a moral candidate into office, to push through campaign finance reform and to exterminate corporate influence in politics because we are our own worst enemies, and on top of turning ourselves into our own natural enemies, the government pushes us to be enemies by having a bi-partisan system designed to push extremes and for no middle ground to be found. They don't want people working together without friction, so therefore, they do become the major problem standing in the way of true reform and revolution.

And revolution itself becomes important for those reasons, for every other reason I listed and for other reasons that I find trouble finding words to describe, but are as real as everything else. Each revolution and turn of the cycle imprints itself on human consciousness; it transcends time and generations and exists within each of us. We learn and grow as a species and each person becomes a part of that learning cycle until we finally manage to balance ourselves in a manner befitting an intelligent species. Yet, people are always working to circumvent the natural cycle and order of things, which is what makes revolution a necessity.

What need has the government to address the concerns of citizens, whether real or fictitious when there are citizens like yourself who do such a good job of it without even being asked?

Did you even note the passing of history from Rome to England to America and the changing of politics and everything else along with, over time? Or do you just pretend not to see the devolving nature of it?

I tell you straight up that it will take violence, because we will not be able to work within the system to fix it, because the system itself is faulty and they don't want to fix it; rather, they would work within it for the most personal gain, and they do. And man is easily corrupted, which means the true noble man that is a rarity will almost always stand alone and be destroyed by the corruption without it even needing to take notice; he will be destroyed by his fellow slaves.

It is a monstrousity and an abomination; government; and for them to grow as large as governments have grown in our world is simply not conducive to anything except our own destruction as we bicker and squabble over stupid things.