Author Topic: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)  (Read 27233 times)

Mr Bekkler

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2736
  • So it goes.
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #195 on: June 16, 2013, 06:39:42 pm »
 It would be most practical to target desktops/laptops. With Android, you're looking at a whole slew of optimization problems to deal with, with iOS you're likely to lose your money way before you  get a chance to make any. Same goes for consoles.
I would argue that 100% of your audience has access to a PC, so make sure it works in Windows, Mac, and Linux, and you're as good as you can be.
I could care less whether it was in 2d or 3d,  but Boo is right: great-looking sprites take far less time to put together than  professional quality animated 3d models, there is no question about that.
As a potential audience member, I can tell you that if I heard of a game that was supposed to be similar to Chrono Trigger and/or Chrono Cross and I quickly saw that it wasn't an rpg, my interest would drop from "Must buy" to "Meh" immediately. And I've bought every game i could find that has even remotely reminded me of Trigger: Black  Sigil, Radiant Historia, Final Fantasy 13-2, and I'm on a desperate quest for a copy of Xenoblade for a reasonable price. The thing these games all have in common is the genre, RPG. My opinion doesn't have to matter  and I don't expect to convince anyone but I figured it was worth sharing these thoughts.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 06:44:15 pm by Mr Bekkler »

tushantin

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5645
  • Under Your Moonlight, Stealing Your Stars
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #196 on: June 16, 2013, 07:13:43 pm »
Thanks for your thoughts, Bekkler.

Before we get down to it, I agree: I think Desktops should be a good idea to target. That means, we're not limited anymore.  :)

Though, there we hit another problem: No matter how much we want it, RPG is kinda complex, which may not be a practical solution for a "beginner game" in the first place...

Alfador and I talked this over via PM, and I wondered how such a system can be replicated in various engines, such as Blender, Lua programming, etc. that can still deliver quality nonetheless. Sure, there are more convenient systems than Blender, but even with 2D sprites, creating and managing a complex inventory-based system such as an RPG becomes tedious (although Alfador would say that maintaining a list alleviates that problem, but the creation is still pretty tedious). That, and maintaining enough characters (let's say, a minimum of 5) with all their animations, especially along-side enemies and world-assets, production can easily get bogged down without getting anything done. (Think of how RPG Maker games, despite having the engine handed to them on a platter, take so much time to complete...) That, and it's usually story-heavy too, which needs to integrate well with gameplay without hitting the audience with a wall of text.

I'm not against RPG because I don't like it. I'm against RPG because we can't make one with our current resources, unless we find a better solution of the How. Which is why we need a mini-game first, a sort of a "prequel" to a grander RPG that might follow once our mini-game is successful.

In that regard, creating a small game with multiple stages, even if it's in 3D, is actually pretty easy (though it takes plenty of effort). We can make use of gimmicky low-poly cartoonish models, and not rely on full-quality stuff, but still pack a punch with gameplay. Our demo is basically a pitch to the gaming industry that our next efforts will be worth a shot. So in that regard, story isn't the priority here; it's gameplay.

If we can't make a simple game, how con we even make a full-fledged RPG? Ever?

Though your idea about "what's Chrono like" reminds me: There's a good reason I keep bringing up Ragnarok Battle Offline. The game was created, not by the original IP holders, but by an independent group called "French Bread". It was based on its RPG counterpart called Ragnarok Online (both Version One and Version Two). To be honest, the developers had no intention of making a sequel or successor to RO; if people wanted to play RO, they could play he original. Instead, they re-imagined the original game and thought differently -- and without even relying on the story, since Battle Offline has no narrations -- and despite their decisions they still managed to cleverly have the same RO feel. And even better: they one-up'd the original RO. And compared to the high-maintenance of RO servers, Battle Offline was actually pretty straightforward and simple to create.  

So what is to say we have to stick to RPG? Why do we drown ourselves in Anxiety of Influence, and restrain ourselves from creating something even better?

But like I said before, we don't have to go strict "RPG or No-RPG"; we just need to change our perception of what's an RPG. Throw our previous experiences out the window, and think creatively for once. We can have the elements of an RPG without actually having an RPG, or we could have an RPG without it being a "Contemporary" RPG (the latter which creates problems). An example (just an example, mind you; just an example!!) would be a First Person SHooter, but camera at the back to make it RESEMBLE an RPG. Little things like that make a world of difference.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 07:16:04 pm by tushantin »

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #197 on: June 16, 2013, 07:24:06 pm »
I don't quite see how making it an RPG is gonna be that taxing, at least compared to being a non-RPG. Like, many games don't need to be an RPG to involve a huge inventory, or many characters/enemies/etc. on the screen at once, or be story-heavy, among other things.

alfadorredux

  • Entity
  • Mystical Knight (+700)
  • *
  • Posts: 746
  • Just a purple cat
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #198 on: June 16, 2013, 09:03:50 pm »
Content and art assets are going to take a while for any decent game, regardless of type. Some types can shortcut the process a bit because they have minimal non-map content, that's all.

The programming is only the beginning.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #199 on: June 17, 2013, 03:45:15 am »
Alfador redux's prince flung forward in time...

Personally, I'd like to see a little explanation for why he's flung forward in time and the circumstances surrounding it, although mainly just because a fairly cheap but highly effective trick for creating satisfying denouement is to reference things the the Main Character did at the beginning of the story again at the end. As such, the more we know about the beginning, the better the end can be.

CT did this, for example: Leene's Bell marked the beginning of the adventure, Marle's Bell marked the end (and in some endings, Marle comes to wake Crono up, as his mother did at the beginning). Someone gets lost in a telepod accident at first, someone gets lost in a telepod accident again at the end. The movie, Last Holiday, this this a little to excess, but if you've seen it, you probably can think of some of the many many times they did this in that movie.

To add, I like the time traveling element in which levels can be manipulated via time travel. Can't get past a large cliff? Travel to the far past and plant some trees, which when returning to the original time will suddenly have a group of trees you can climb up to get over the cliff.

That reminds me a little of the CT:DS bonus areas, which can be a good or bad thing, depending on one's perspective.

Have 3-4 time traveling era's (prehistory, middle ages, steampunk, and future). Throw a little bit of Secret of Evermore in there, too... Perhaps his item takes upon a different form in each era, with different functionalities? Perhaps in prehistory it's a grappling hook / whip; in the middle ages a magical alchemy device, in the steampunk era a digging claw, and in the future a short-range teleportation device.

Love this idea!

[Game opens with a black screen and a loud THUD. A bedroom flickers into view, in such a way that it looks like someone is opening their eyes. The overall look of the environment is steampunk/19th-century-gone-mad-ish. Lying in the bed is a young woman with red hair. Sitting on her legs is a young boy.]

Brilliant opening. The "waking up" scene definitely is a Chrono hallmark, but not trademark.

Also I  still feel like  if its really going to be made and it's really  going to feel like a Chrono game, it's got to be an RPG.

I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment, mainly because in the years since CT, what "RPG" means has changed so much that I think we can get into a tangle if we try to focus on what an RPG actually is. Back in 1995, having a leveling system and equipeable items essentially made something an RPG. Throw in a story focus, and you definitely had one. But what about Hybrid Heaven in 1999? That was essentially an fighter/RPG (a trend we see continue, though with strong fighter ties, in things like Soul Calibur 2 and Super Smash Bros Brawl). That particular game, alas, had problems with lack of popularity (basically, I think it alienated RPG fans with the fighting elements, and it alienated fighter fans with RPG elements). I think my point is mainly just that while I agree people should think it's an RPG, I think that actually still gives us a huge amount of room. Personally, I think a puzzle fighter RPG (think interlocking clockwork puzzles, not falling brick puzzles) could work beautifully, but then, I'm also crazy.

Though don't let anything I said take away from the truth (as you noted later, Bekkler) that it has to appear to be an RPG. It could be tic tac toe, and if it looks like an RPG, great. But if it's FFVI and doesn't look like an RPG, the project's doomed.

Maybe I'm old school, but it just seems so much easier to make a SNES-era style JRPG as our first outing and as a true Chrono Trigger spiritual successor.

The one problem I would see there is that while we want it to feel like a SNES-era JRPG, I think we'd want it to be notably different and tuned to modern gaming sensibilities. I think we might want to look at modern successful RPG's and see what concepts and techniques could be presented in a SNES-era-esq JRPG-esq format. The new Star Trek movies did this fairly well: they took modern sensibilities, wrapped them up in 70's concepts, and made something that largely felt like it could belong in both time periods.

So, I guess that would mean that I'm saying "SNES era JRPG feel"=good, "SNES era JRPG clone"=bad.

We need the "what" before we can move to the "how".

I agree, though I'd propose that the project might need a "who" before a "what." I really think that projects like this are made or broken based off that one or two people who'll drive forward like crazy until other people can't help but clamor to help. To my understanding, that is how Crimson Echoes got finished: the project "started," had problems, then some programming genius came through and starting doing almost everything themselves, until other people were... well, not falling over themselves to help, but definitely being less passive. Although, as CE proved, that person doesn't need to be the team lead, like had been previously discussed. Just someone passionate enough to get things done, and someone charismatic enough to make others want to help.

tushantin

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5645
  • Under Your Moonlight, Stealing Your Stars
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #200 on: June 17, 2013, 07:16:12 am »
I don't know about you guys, but I at some point will begin this project. Why? Because there's a good chance my career depends on it.  :)

The question is When. I'm just awaiting Alfador's response on the technical questions regarding LOVE Engine, so I can begin a game-document along with achievable to-do list and find ways to not only make the most of the resources but also delegate work to those who are willing to work Pro Bono, but will gain their fair share of royalties once we're done.

Of course, the game will be as simple as we can make it, while still keeping it playable and fun; this is just to get started, so I can get a platform to stand on and gain agency to produce more games (not much different from making a portfolio to get your own dream-job). And THEN comes the fun-part: Chrono Spiritual Successor (if I succeed in the first game, of course)!

Either way, I could either delegate the coding to a programmer (Alfador, or utunnels if he's available), or simply learn Lua myself. No, it's not a stupid idea; learning Lua can be beneficial in developing my prototyping skills, where I can create examples of user-interfaces for Software Development companies. Of course, that's simply because I haven't found a better system which can intersect with my other areas.

Anyone interested? It'll be so much fun!

(P.S.: If we end up using Lua, then it's bound to be 2D graphics. Except I'm going for High-Res graphics, because those are easier for me.)


EDIT: I forgot to mention -- the game production would be open-source and transparent. This is to make sure that much of the work is "distributed" and people are wiling to participate if they find it tempting. That, and transparency seems to make games go great! Of course, this also means that people who love to watch us make and give feedback will be able to play early beta for free.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 07:20:03 am by tushantin »

alfadorredux

  • Entity
  • Mystical Knight (+700)
  • *
  • Posts: 746
  • Just a purple cat
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #201 on: June 17, 2013, 08:59:10 am »
Alfador redux's prince flung forward in time...

Personally, I'd like to see a little explanation for why he's flung forward in time and the circumstances surrounding it, although mainly just because a fairly cheap but highly effective trick for creating satisfying denouement is to reference things the the Main Character did at the beginning of the story again at the end. As such, the more we know about the beginning, the better the end can be.


Remember that item that fell from his hand and rolled away into the leaf litter? It's a sort of Time Key equivalent developed by the people with the pseudo-AT-ATs. He found it during the fight and activated it by accident, without having any idea of how it worked.

Or, alternate backstory that I considered at one point: someone from the far future was trying to summon someone from his era for help, and screwed up. (The object that rolled away into the leaf litter then becomes an heirloom or a memento of Liara which he wants very much to get back.)

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #202 on: June 17, 2013, 12:39:16 pm »
Lua can be very valuable. I've shipped a commercial game that was written all but entirely in Lua.

tushantin

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5645
  • Under Your Moonlight, Stealing Your Stars
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #203 on: June 20, 2013, 11:35:11 am »
Okay, so I dabbled around with Lua for a bit. Looks like it's the PERFECT language to make a 2D / Sprites-based game!

Now that we know "how" to accomplish it, let's focus on the "what".

So... what kind of game would have the best elements of an RPG, be called an RPG, but still be simple and interesting at the same time?

I'm thinking of completely ditching the "Inventory" idea, proposing a more limited selection of weaponry that can actually be used everywhere (inspired by Beat-em Ups and FPS) depending on needs. Ocarinas can put people to sleep, Wind Bows can help you double-jump / fly, Water Spears can help you surf the waves, Earth Armors can make you invulnerable, while Wind Tights can make you more agile, etc.

Now comes the battle system... any ideas, fellows?

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #204 on: June 20, 2013, 02:38:51 pm »
I'd probably say an action-RPG sort of thing, though probably more simple, more akin to a beat-them-up, hack-and-slash, or platformer genre with a level-up system, and also taking your "auto-equip inventory" suggestion and give it an upgrade system to it.

Mr Bekkler

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2736
  • So it goes.
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #205 on: June 20, 2013, 04:47:21 pm »
I'd love to see the battles take place on the same screen as the playing field. Something that might be neat and tie in the RPG influence with the action-RPG and still feel fresh... What about taking inspiration from "new" RPGs? Like Oblivion or Skyrim (and maybe other Elder Scrolls games, I'm not very well educated on their features) when you pull out your weapon people act differently, as though you're threatening them, and might even attack you in some places.

How would that translate? Fairly simply, I think.

Have a button dedicated to drawing your weapons/putting weapons away (kind of like Zelda too, now that I think about it). A sort of "battle mode" button. I'm picturing enemies on the field just like in CT. They follow and attack you lightly when you're in "explore mode"(no weapon drawn). When you go into "battle mode" (weapon drawn) they attack harder and faster, but you can now attack back. In town, people might talk to you when you're no threat, but if you're in "battle mode" they're afraid of you and might even run away, or guards might come attack if they see you approach. If you can figure out how to make it work for a team instead of just an individual then that'd be great, and of course magic would have to be thrown into the mix as well.

So I guess my idea is take cool features from the systems used by CT, Zelda, Elder Scrolls, and Secret of Mana, then combine only a few from each to make something that works in a new way.
Just an idea.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 08:49:51 pm by Mr Bekkler »

Mr Bekkler

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2736
  • So it goes.
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #206 on: June 21, 2013, 04:29:46 pm »
...Or not.

Did everybody disappear?

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #207 on: June 21, 2013, 05:26:25 pm »
Not that I know of.

Anyway, I think it's a little too complex. Not that it's a bad thing, but at least from what I get, this is starting as a small project before going all out.

idioticidioms

  • Guest
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #208 on: June 21, 2013, 06:42:19 pm »
What if you make it an RTB like Terranigma, but allow for the casting of spells like in Kingdom Hearts Re:Coded? Would that be do-able and easy? Turn-based battles, even the ones like Tales of Phantasia, get kind of boring after a while.

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)
« Reply #209 on: June 21, 2013, 07:30:11 pm »
Well, Terranigma allowed you to cast spells, though I agree that it's system wasn't one of the best. Anyway, I'd say this is our best bet if we are to keep it simple and with an RPG feel.

Since you brought those games up, I'd say it's a good model to base a combat system out of it. Well, I can't say much of the latter games, but I do remember the first and II only ever had HP, MP, Strength, and Defense as stats, with AP for equipping abilities, while II only added Magic. Then with Terranigma it was mostly the same except it had Agility and instead of MP being an actual stat it was represented as an item you could increase the quantity of via a collect-them-all sort of quest.

Then both also had a likewise simple inventory system though KHII did shake things up by adding Synthesizing. It was simple and straightforward and didn't deter much from the action itself to worry yourself over it. Though then again, that's probably since what mattered most in the end was being the appropriate level and from what I remember, I didn't had to, say, equip element-resistant accessories as a vital thing... or something... and can't say much about Terranigma since it was also slightly lacking in that department. More like it didn't mattered much in the end save for one or two cases.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 07:34:45 pm by Acacia Sgt »