Chrono Spiritual Successor Brainstorm Session (Come and join the fun!)

[Thought]

The best were Prophet's Guile and Crimson Echoes. To my understanding, the former was completed for realsies, while the later got a C&D when it was at somewhere like 98% (essentially, everything but a little bug testing). Alas, both games were removed because of the aforementioned crackdown by Square Enix. Which is a shame, really, because those games would have helped renew interest in Chrono Trigger, and would have in turn improved sales of CT DS. Alas, it seems that the business model of large organizations is "Hulk smash!"

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if in some dark corner of the interwebs you could still find copies of those two games.

[idiotekque]

Err, theoretically speaking, which "dark corners" might one look in to find these games? Theoretically, of course.

[alfadorredux]

Google illuminates all corners of the Internet, even the most darksome and scurrilous.

(Seriously, any link posted here could be used as an excuse for another wave of Squeenix Attack Lawyers...)

[tushantin]

(Seriously, any link posted here could be used as an excuse for another wave of Squeenix Attack Lawyers...)

Haha! And knowing how reporters function... http://roflplanet.com/pictures/747.jpg

.... that should be an interesting headline the next morning.

"Square Enix Sells Products to Loyal Consumers, Attacks Them and Burns Their Homes "

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Flames of Eternity may be worth a look, even if it is a blatant theft of Crimson Echoes. A group took the Crimson Echoes alpha, fixed it up, then set about making changes to the plot. As it's gone on it's become less and less like Crimson Echoes. It's still a bastard, though - they don't even give credit to anyone that built Crimson Echoes. Granted, it's pretty polished.

[Manly Man]

The best were Prophet's Guile and Crimson Echoes. To my understanding, the former was completed for realsies, while the later got a C&D when it was at somewhere like 98% (essentially, everything but a little bug testing). Alas, both games were removed because of the aforementioned crackdown by Square Enix. Which is a shame, really, because those games would have helped renew interest in Chrono Trigger, and would have in turn improved sales of CT DS. Alas, it seems that the business model of large organizations is "Hulk smash!"

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if in some dark corner of the interwebs you could still find copies of those two games.

Prophet's Guile and I think Flames of Eternity can be found on vizzed.com.

[tushantin]

Flames of Eternity may be worth a look, even if it is a blatant theft of Crimson Echoes.

I don't necessarily think it's a blatant theft. I kinda think of it as this sort of scenario:

CE creators put great efforts to create a product and intend to distribute it. SE appears with a gun in hand, threatens them to toss it in a bin and go about their lives safely. CE creators have no choice but to throw away what they worked so hard on. Now, the product (here I'm gonna use the example of a "computer gadget") is in a bin, with nobody bothering to take a look. Some blokes did, though, and said, "Hey, we could recycle that!" They then decided to take the gadget and hack it to make it workable for them. Then, since it's different form the original, they rebranded it as "Flames of Eternity".

One man's (regretful) trash is another man's treasure, aye? I know because I'd do the same in different circumstances and different stuff (heck, even now I've got someone else's scroll-mouse that barely works, tucked away somewhere in a box until I can find a recyclable use for it).  Some things are just too precious to be forgotten, and a wax candle has more than one use so it doesn't have to stay as a "candle".

As it's gone on it's become less and less like Crimson Echoes. It's still a bastard, though - they don't even give credit to anyone that built Crimson Echoes. Granted, it's pretty polished.

That could also be a boon, or may have been done consciously by the creators of FoE. See, if they give direct credit to the creators of CE, then they'd be risking the original creators' lives. They don't someone else's blood on their hands (despite the blatant risk they're already taking). Besides, the community knows it anyway.

[Acacia Sgt]

That's an interesting way to look at it. At least it's unlike the bashing I used to saw...

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Hey Tushantin,

I have to respectfully disagree. I can tell you haven't spent much time reading up on the Flames of Eternity (FoE) guys. They have a strong dislike for Zeality and much of the Compendium. Shortly after Crimson Echoes (CE) got the C&D one of them came on here and posted a video about how much they dislike Zeality. It was blatant trolling. It got very little attention from the Compendium, but I didn't forget about it, nor did I brush it under the rug. That's just douche-baggery at it's finest.

That being said, the CE guys had to comply with the C&D because it was their lives on the line. Not yours, not mine, not the FoE guys. If you've played the most recent FoE (I believe it was posted last August, so almost a year ago), it's still not that different than the CE alpha. The differences are few. It's simply a more polished build with some minor differences. It's what CE would have been given a bit more time.

As for referring to CE as a physical computer gadget, that's a rough analogy. We're talking about intellectual property more than we're talking about a physical product (we could go down a rabbit trail and talk about this in reference to Chrono Trigger, as well).

Since you and I are both writers, let's frame the narrative a bit more accurately. Let's say that your Polar Bear Detective video was never finished, and your story was never publicly told. YouTube, for various copywrite reasons (just imagine it for me; I understand that there aren't any copywrite laws being broken in your video), makes you pull it down and forbids you from uploading it anywhere else. Not only this, but all of the online channels you've used to make Polar Bear Detective are also shut down (the forums and graphic sharing sites). If you share it, it's going to cost you potentially millions of rupies and, worst case, jail time.

Now let's say I come in and take the unfinished Polar Bear Detective and change it's name to Polar Escapade Mysteries. Your name is removed from it, as is Licawolf's and all those others involved. Instead, I'm going to slap my name on it, make no reference to the fact that the majority of the work was done by you, and I'm going to release it as a Super Awesome Mikey G production (of course, I wouldn't use the Boo the Gentleman Caller moniker). You have officially faded into obscurity, and I'll be the awesome creator of the product. Shame on you, right?

So as it stands, FoE is a bastard. Plain and simple. It is a bastard in the truest sense. That being said, I've never once said that I wasn't glad they've done so. I was not a beta tester for CE and didn't get to play it for nearly a year after it was leaked; it's really rough around the edges! FoE is so much more polished and is what CE couldn't been. The FoE guys have done a great job and I commend them for their craft. They've spent several years constantly fixing and refining it. That's dedication And it's a great "product!" So good for them, and good for us - because we get to enjoy other people's hard work!

But it doesn't change the fact that they've bashed Zeality and claim the work as their own. I've lurked on that site since it opened and anyone who speaks up about this issue on their site is threatened and/or banned - even if it's just a passing comment. I've never posted for this very reason.

In conclusion, by not giving credit where credit is due, one is taking credit for it entire project. So Chrono99, Mauron, Zeality, and anyone else who worked on CE simply isn't getting the credit they deserve. FoE does not have noble intentions by leaving their names off of everything; they aren't doing it "to protect" those who were at legal risk following the C&D. They aren't Robin Hood and his band of followers, either; at least Robin Hood and his men could admit their theft and directly stand against the Sheriff of Nottingham.

So FoE is not a bad thing. Not bad at all!

(On a side note, I've wondered if that isn't all a ruse to throw us off the scent. Perhaps Giro / RubyDragoon and the others are actually doing FoE for Zeality and the others to ensure that it really is put out there. Who knows?!)

Doesn't change the fact that it's still a bastard, though.

Edited for grammar.

[idiotekque]

Well, thievery or not, I'm glad they did it. The web is full of douchebags, but the important thing is keeping Chrono Trigger alive for all of us true fans that are getting the short end of the stick from Squeenix and their even greater douchebaggery. More than that, we all KNOW FoE is just a revised CE. Whether the FoE creators give credit where it's due... we all know it's CE. The credit is going to Zeality whether the FoE creators give it or not.

Anyways, I found a cool little site with FoE and PG, so I'll have to give those a spin.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

You'll love them! If you want the full FoE experience, I'd play through multiple versions. A few versions of them (7 maybe?) have the ability to start at different chapters. The newest version (8, I believe) doesn't have that option, but is obviously the most complete.

Enjoy!

[tushantin]

That reminds me: Why don't ZeaLitY, Agent 12 and Crono'99 and all the others who've worked on this turn CE into an original game? I mean, the only thing that infringes the story is references, sprites, game mechanics, etc. to Chrono Trigger, but the story, ideas, concept, etc. were totally original. Couldn't that be used in a separate project entirely?

I actually encourage this. My memory may deceive me, but I remember how The Lies of Locke Lamora was supposed to be a Final Fantasy VI fan-fiction of Locke Cole, but eventually the author decided to turn it into an original story altogether why retaining the primary ideas and concepts. I think the same could be done with CE?

Ah, speaking of which, here's Scott Lynch's own words on the website:

Locke Lamora’s character is loosely inspired by Locke Cole from Final Fantasy VI. He is a thief, but prefers to be called a "Treasure Hunter." Lynch said: ‘Locke's first name is a homage to a character in SquareSoft's Final Fantasy VI, also known as Final Fantasy III in the United States. This game had a huge influence on me when I was in my mid-teens; I think it's one of the most brilliant and heartbreaking console roleplaying games ever created, a real work of art.’

....

Sorry, I fan-girled for a moment.

(BTW that first picture is actually Scott Lynch's book art.)

[Acacia Sgt]

I suppose that could be interesting to do, but it may not be that feasible. Considering how tied CE's plot was to CT's, you would also need to recreate all of that into an original work, or at least enough of it for the background info. Well, I can't say I'd know much about such a situation...

[alfadorredux]

The procedure in question is sometimes known as "filing off the serial numbers", and no, I don't think it's practical for CE for much the reason that Acacia Sgt just gave. CE isn't just another story in the world of CT, it's a tightly-coupled sequel (unlike CC, which could have its serial numbers filed off fairly easily—all that's needed there is a different backstory for Schala and Belthasar, plus a few selective cuts and renames).

Even if it were practical, the odds are good that the resulting game would be much weaker for it. And a new engine would still be required to avoid the problem of redistributing Squeenix IP.

[idiotekque]

...and then I don't think people would like it very much, lol. Seems like the same reason that hardcore Chrono Trigger fans don't usually care much for Chrono Cross, since it's a sequel... but it's not. I'm one of the few that loves both games, but actually prefers CC.

Nothing wrong with CE living on in the bowels of the interwebs, I guess.