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16

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Guardia Royal Line Paradox

« on: May 29, 2004, 04:42:37 am »

Formerly: Archived Discussion from GameFAQs:  Marle and Ayla Paradox

This issue is hardly resolved, so as always feel free to continue the discussion.  These are the most relevant and insightful comments from the GameFAQs message board topic, "Time Traveling Errors."

Yes, what I'm talking about is simple. And I'll get right to the point.

When you go to 65,000,000 B.C. you can get Ayla to join your team. And if I'm not mistaking Ayla is Marle's ancestor. So how is it when Ayla joins your team and you travel to the future that King Guardia is still there?

I mean, its basically Ayla disappearing from the face of the earth for 65,000,000 years. Unless they had kids before, this would make no sense.

Now you might say its going to happen no matter what even though it hasn't really happened yet, them having kids. You might say its in the original timeline that's why. Well you can change the statue in Medina Square, can't you?


That's what I believe 2300 A.D. is, if Crono and his friends were to disappear from this world and reappear 1300 years later.
Also when Robo and Doan go back to the future to 2300 A.D. its after Lavos is defeated, so do they go to the good or bad future?

What StreetFighterAkuma has brought to light is a significant revelation. While Ayla is waiting at the End of Time, the entire time-line would be changed so that there is no Guardia royal line. For that matter, Marle could never meet Doan in 2300 AD because he would cease to exist due to her absence in 1000 AD. This has far-reaching implications for the mechanics of time travel in the Chrono universe.

The time-line is not predetermined because history can be observed to change. If Ayla warps to the future, she is in fact missing for 65 million and some odd years. Ayla is not observed to return and have children until after Lavos is defeated. Time traveler immunity has nothing to do with this.

Maybe if Ayla never came back another women would take her place in mothering those who would eventually become the Gaurdia line. We don't see any evidence of this though because by the next time period you can visit, all records andstories from cave man times are lost.

That is certainly possible, as Kino would have probably taken another wife without question as Chief of the village. Since it's so far back in the past, any small change might cause a chaos effect (or rolling snowball) of ill repercussions through time, but I believe such a wave would be constricted by

-Population reducing Ice Age
-Ayla's probable life after returning (settling down)
-Ayla's extremely short lifespan in the grand scheme of time

Timeline Resilience Theory

Small changes made to the timeline will not have any noticeable effects if the intervening interval of time is sufficiently large. This is due to the overwhelming number of other factors involved and chaotic effects. After a geologic period of time, these small changes are simply cancelled out by the law of averages.

For example, even though Ayla was originally the ancestor of the Guardia royal line, in the timeline which existed while she is traveling through time, the present era was not noticeably changed. The Guardians had a different ancestor which had no noticeable effect after 65 million years.

Doan is surviving member of the Guardia royal line in 2300 AD, even when Marle was traveling through time. After 1300 years, Marle's absence from 1000 AD had a minimal effect on the timeline.

One example of where this does not apply is Queen Leene's disappearance in 600 AD, which may have eliminated Marle from the timeline.

Still, this is somewhat refuted by the fact that the Mayor of Porre does change if you give Jerky to his ancestor in 600AD. By most accounts, this is a minor change, yet the mayor is in fact changed by these events. Perhaps a better way to explain it is that the scale of the changes to the past corresponds to the scale of the changes in the future.

Examples: Having the original ancestor of Marle leave 65mil BC would end the Guardian line, but this is a very significant change, so some factor would act to preserve the timeline of the world to allow the Guardian line to come into existence. Giving Jerky to the Mayor of Porre's ancestor is a relatively small change, but because the resulting change to the timeline is also relatively small, it is allowed to happen. The rising of the Black Omen is a very significant change, but Crono's interference in the Ocean Palace is certainly not trivial.

Perhaps the 65 mil. BC ancestor is just Kino, and Ayla has nothing to do with it. Certainly, this would create a domestic problem when Ayla returns to her own time and finds that Kino has already taken or will take another tribe member as his wife. Nonetheless, the time stream would remain undisturbed.

Also, this theory might be comparable to Ending #1 if you complete all the side quests and resurrect Crono. Well you see Robo and Doan, correct? And you see them after you already defeated Lavos. So we know it exists, but it means nothing since it's not going to happen.

So on to the point, Robo and Doan come to 1000 A.D. to join the Moonlight Parade and talk with the King. Along with some other historical figures. Well Doan and Robo also return to 2300 A.D. in a time line where Lavos is defeated. So which time line do they return to? The good or bad 2300 A.D.

If they do return to the bad one, this has some power over time traveling laws. Which my first post can somehow be compared with.

Hmmm. I wonder. Ayla, is Marle's ancestor. If Ayla died, then Marle would never have been sucked into the portal, and nothing would ever happen. I hate to bring It into this, but...this may have been planned by the Entity. If Crono and co. failed, then they never would have tried, and the Entity could use someone else to it's purpose. Perhaps it did, and Crono isn't the first one to try.

And "the entity" is nothing more then destiny, the way things are supposed to happen in time traveling.

Now, with that in mind, suppose destiny recognizes the fact that no-one other than Crono & Co. could ensure the planet's survival?

I forget who postulated it, but in real life, there's a theory that states "God" is nothing more than the collective consciousness of humanity.

Taking this into consideration, if the Entity is the collective consciousness of humanity in Chrono Trigger, wouldn't it do everything in it's power to aid them in their quest? From little changes like the Mayor becoming kinder because a stranger gave his great-great-grandmother beef jerky (or whatever) to the bigger changes, like Ayla disappearing entirely for an extended period of time - isn't it at all possible that humanity keeps the timeline pretty firm in situations where deviance would prevent Crono's birth, only to make the timeline a little more flexible where it could make the defeat of Lavos that much more likely?

After all, I'm pretty sure Crono's really the only one that matters. Nobody else would've gone to save Marle, and if that hadn't happened, nothing else would've either.

One - I understand what you're saying. And two - have you said that before? If not, I just got the weirdest sense of deja vu.

I don't pretend to understand time travel because I don't. But what I'm saying is that maybe time, in this sense, is almost a living thing (An "Entity." ) and that it is willing to remain inflexible in instances where doing otherwise would endanger it - i.e., Ayla not giving birth would keep Marle from ever being born, which would mean that Crono would never start his quest, which would mean that Lavos would never be defeated. However, the beef jerky thing - I'm only using that as an example - is relatively minor, or is, at least, relatively minor thus far. Perhaps ten thousand years from that point in time, it would have some critical influence on the timestream. But so far, all it did was aid Crono, which seems to be destiny's aim.

Alright, I have 2 theories :

1) the Dream theory

We all know Crono's adventure is the "Dream of our Planet". Let's say for example, the time Gates were to be shut down right there, in the middle of the game. Crono would just >wake< up in his house in 1000AD, so as Marle, and Ayla in 65...BC, the three able to marry whoever live their life... So, well, my point is, maybe those time-travellers have some kind of "protective status", since they travel basically between a "real world" and the "dream" of the world... hmm hope it makes any sense.

2) the Clones theory

See those clones of the party in the Ocean Palace? either they're just random stuff to make the decor scary, or they may have a real >purpose<. Like, "replacing" the party in their respective time-line, something like that... it still doesn't explain why we don't see them in the eras, but, it's something to think about, maybe...

First:
"All things are four dimensionally predeterminate, meaning that everything has already happened and their's really no way to change it. I could get into it, but take a few good physics courses and you'll none what I mean."
I've taken Relativistic Physics, Quantum Physics, Nuclear Physics, all of which were "good" physics courses, and I don't "none" (know) what you mean. Please, do "get into it", otherwise don't state such things without backing them up.

Second:
I believe I may have a theory that kinda satisfies what StreetFighterAkuma is saying.. Before I say them though, I just need to make sure we're on the same page.
- So, your question is: since the actions of characters have implications on the future (i.e: giving Jerky to the Porre Elder's wife in 600 A.D. results in their decendents being more generous), then why does the Guardia/Doan exist if you can visit them with Ayla in your party (since that would mean Ayla has been missing for millions of years)?
- And as was said, one can't claim "well because she would go back home and get pregnant later" because then there would be no reason a New Game couldn't be started with a Rainbow and high equipment/stats since technically those would also be gotten later..

If we are indeed on the same page, I have 2 theories:

- My theory is that this is a result of the time travel methods being very limited in where/which time periods one can travel to. What I mean by that is: the 3 ways Crono and gang can travel through time (Gates, Pillars, Epoch) can only go to
a.) a limited number of times (otherwise Epoch would be able to go to millions of different time periods, and there would be much more than 9 pillars) and
b.)1 scenario out of an infinite amount.
-What I mean by the latter is each of the 5 time periods you can originally go to (excluding 1999 A.D. and the End of Time) are all time periods which would have existed if Crono and company never began travelling through time.
-Once Crono and company have been to a particular time period, their actions in that period change the future (not post-Lavos future, but future from that date) only for scenarios that they have not been to.
Example:
-Crono lives in a time where Porre's Elder is greedy.
-Crono gives Jerky to his great great great grandmother (or whoever) in 600 A.D.
-When Crono travels back to 1000 A.D. he is not in the same world as he grew up in. The version of 1000 A.D. he is in now is changed, for some strange reason, whenever Crono travels from now on to 1000 A.D., he can only go to the scenario where Porre's Elder is generous.
Example 2:
-Crono, Marle and Lucca are chilling in the End of Time. Ayla (knows all about time travel and such) is waiting around in her hut in 65000000 B.C.
-They go to the Millenial Fair 1000 A.D.
-Lucca (alone) goes to 65000000 B.C. Gives Ayla the Gate Key, and tells Ayla to go 1000 A.D.
-Ayla happily obliges, and when she gets there, she sees Crono and Marle.
-If there were an error in the time-travel process, then as soon as Ayla stepped into the Gate, then past/future would have changed instantly, and Crono and Marle would disappear or be changed somehow. The reason that they don't is because Ayla (when travelling from 65000000 B.C. to the End of Time, and from there to 1000 A.D.) can't choose which scenario to go to. She can only go to the one where Crono and Marle are. Why, I don't know.

Theory 2
The Zeal/Guardia/Doan bloodline is not decendent of Ayla. She could have died when Lavos struck the world while she was battling Azala (hey, she was alone this time, so it took longer..)
Zeal/Guardia/Doan are all decendents of Kino, and Kino alone. He took over as chief when Ayla died, and thus, the male dominated society began. This is just as possible as any other theory, and it's just chance that Kino got Ayla pregnant because they had a chance to be together.

Edit

17

General Discussion / Linux

« on: February 24, 2004, 09:05:59 pm »

Windows sucks, and I've decided to make the switch.  Problem is, I don't know which distribution to choose.  Could anyone give advise me on which OS is best suited for the average user?

18

Site Updates / New Article: Dead Sea/Sea of Eden FAQ Refutation

« on: February 06, 2004, 11:58:13 pm »

Above all else, the primary objective of the Chrono Compendium is to seek out truth.  Because of this, Zeality and I have collaborated on an article exposing the inaccuracies and inconsistencies contained within the "Dead Sea/Sea of Eden FAQ", posted on GameFAQs.  With input from Compendium members during chat sessions, the erroneous theories proposed by the FAQ have been disproved.

Dead Sea/Sea of Eden FAQ Refutation

19

Articles / Dead Sea/Sea of Eden FAQ Refutation

« on: February 06, 2004, 11:52:10 pm »

All excerpts taken from the "Dead Sea/Sea of Eden FAQ", posted on GameFAQs by BubbleBobby2000.

Part 3: Serge and The Destruction of The World


Theory 1: Descendants in Home World (by "bubbblebobby2000")

When Serge survived in Home World, his actions there could have
unconsciously caused some major repercussions down the timeline into
the future in 1999AD, nullifying Crono+co's effort in defeating Lavos.

Let me just state an example. Albeit its silliness, it does get the
point across.

In Home World:
Serge lives. One day, he unintentionally match made Kiki + Lolo in Arni
village. Kiki + Lolo eventually got married and spawns off descendants.
And one of their descendants name, Nono, was a general in 1999AD. When
Lavos appeared in 1999AD, Crono+co time time warped to it and fought
it. But before Crono+co could kill it, General Nono, descendant of Kiki
+ Lolo, made a silly decision to fire some weapons straight at Lavos.
The weapons killed Crono+co, but not Lavos. Now that Lavos had no one
to kill it, went on to destroy the world like it did in Chrono Trigger.
Hence the bleak future reigned in Home World.

In Another World:
Serge died. Since he did, he never match-maded Kiki + Lolo. Nobody
matchmade them. So they never got married. And General Nono was never
born. And the silly decision of firing weapons to kill Lavos was never
made, and Crono+co never died. So Lavos was successfully destroyed. And
the bright future reigned in Another World.


Weak Areas
~~~~~~~~~~

This theory actually depends on the very fact that Crono+co will be
there in 1999AD to defeat Lavos. But for those who have played Chrono
Trigger knows that this is an unwarranted assumption. Lavos could have
been beaten at anytime from 12000BC – 1999AD.

Zeality: I believe this theory is weak in that it depends on a minor ripple through time, and has no implied basis in the script. In Chrono Trigger, several such ripples are undoubtedly made as the team leaves its footprints in time, yet this causes no major alterations (save for the rise of Porre, possibly caused in part by the presence of Fiona's forest). Also, bubblebobby is incorrect in saying that Lavos might have been beaten at any of the key eras. Lavos is gone from 1999 forward; see the Pocket Dimension Theory for further explanation. Lastly, this would depend on a possibility in the future causing the Dead Sea, and possibility alone -- even if it is certain -- does not cause the effects of its realization to manifest themselves. It is the present time to Serge, and his theorized progeny's killing Crono has not happened yet; thus, the Dead Sea would not yet exist.


Theory 2: Contact with the Frozen Flame (by "jason79")

The game also blames [the Dead Sea's] creation on Serge, although we
know it's rather a sequence of events now made possible due to his
living presence. So, the question is, what possible events could have
been precipitated by his living that would result in the Sea of Eden
turning into the Dead Sea?

The obvious first event would have to be that the Flame can now be
unlocked. Serge was made the arbiter of the Flame in 1006, when he
first came into contact with and was healed by it. Unfortunately, we
don't have enough information to extrapolate at this point exactly how
the unlocking of the Flame would lead to the pre-emption of Crono's
defeat of Lavos. But that will wait. Let's just go with the idea for
now that Lavos' defeat had suddenly been nullified."


Weak Areas
~~~~~~~~~~
 
We are not sure exactly how the unlocking of the Flame would lead to
the destruction of the world.

Zeality: No basis whatsoever; one could equally assert that Guile's left eyebrow may cause the destruction. The Flame could also similarly be accessed by FATE before Serge became the Arbiter; this theory would depend on Serge having the desire or knowledge to use the Flame for ill ends, an objective protected against by FATE.


Theory 3: Lavos and Serge (by "One That Was")

Description
~~~~~~~~~~~

(editor's notes:
This theory was added in very late. So it did not spark off a lot of
discussions for "One That Was" to be able to refine it. I will post
exactly what he posted on the GameFAQs message board.)

Here are the events as they happened in each world, and an explanation
on how it effects Serge and Lavos's survival.
 
Another World
7600BC Chronopolis/Dinopolis Appear.
       Battle ensues, Chronopolis Wins.
1000AD Crono and Crew Time Travel into the future, 2400AD
1003AD Serge is Born
1006AD Serge Bitten By Panther Demon, Healed by FF,
       Becomes "Arbiter"/ Chrono Trigger
1007AD-1009AD
       Lynx Created to Kill Serge
1010AD Serge Drowned - Time Split Occurs
1011AD-1019AD
       Sea of Eden still exists.
1999AD Crono and Crew Kill Lavos.
1999AD (Day of Lavos occurs)
       Guardia Dome is first to react to the coming of Lavos.
       Arris Dome is under Gaurdia Rule. (THEORETICAL)
2300AD (Original CT Timeline)
       Crono and Crew View Day of Lavos on Computer in Arris Dome.
2400AD (New Future)
       Chronopolis Thrown Back in Time to 76,000 BC
 
Now in this Dimension, Because Serge Died in 1010, The Frozen Flame is
Stabilized and doesn't cause the Formation of the Dead Sea. Also,
because Serge is Dead, the Immediate Death of Crono and Crew isn't
necessary. Because Crono and Crew haven't been killed yet, they still
may have an impact on Future events. For example, they might lead the
rebellion against Porre and Reinstate Guardia Kingdom, which allows
Guardia Dome and Arris Dome to exist in the Future. Which in turn,
allows Crono and Crew to see the coming of Lavos on the Arris Dome
Computer. No Gaurdia Kingdom, No Arris Dome. So, Because of Serge's
death, Lavos Gets killed and isn't allowed to exist, period. All this
happens in the "True" Dimension, Another World.

Home World
7600BC Chronopolis/Dinopolis Appears.
       Battle ensues, Chronopolis wins.
1000AD Crono and Crew Time travel to the future, 2400 AD
1003AD Serge is Born
1006AD Serge is bitten by Panther Demon, Healed by FF,
       Becomes "Arbiter"/Chrono Trigger.
1007AD-1009AD
       Lynx Created to Kill Serge.
1010AD Serge Almost Drowns.
       Lavos/Schala Intervenes, Serge is saved.
       Time Split occurs.
1011-1019AD
       Frozen Flame goes Haywire (THEORETICAL).
       Dead Sea is formed.
1999AD Crono and Crew DO NOT kill Lavos.
       Day of Lavos occurs.
       Gaurdia Dome/Arris Dome Don't exist.
2300AD Crono and crew arrive here, but DO NOT see the coming of Lavos.
       Arris Dome does not exist.
2400AD Chronopolis doesn't exist.
       Natural time gets messed up,
       Formation of Dead Sea occurs in 1011-1019 (THEORETICAL).
 
Now in this Dimension, Because Lavos intervenes and causes Serge to
live, The Frozen Flame becomes unstable and causes the Dead Sea to Form
by taking parts of the "REAL" future as well as the "Dead" future and
clashing them together. Also, The formation of the Dead Sea Causes Lynx
to Try getting in by aiding in the death of the CT crew, and Killing
the Acacia Dragoons as well. In the Attempt, Lynx Dies, so Serge is
still able to live. Because Crono and Crew are no Longer Present, Porre
Takes over, Guardia is Never Reinstated, and Arris Dome never exists.
Which causes Crono and Crew of 1000 AD to never see the Coming of Lavos
in 2300 AD, and so, Lavos is allowed to Live in the Home World
Dimension. In this way, Serge acts as The "Chrono Trigger", and causes
the natural Flow of time to change, allowing Lavos to exist, even if
it's only between the Dimensions.


Assumptions
~~~~~~~~~~~
 
1.  Crono and Crew defeated Lavos in the year 1999.
 
2.  Crono and Crew have a big Impact on future events, after 1020 AD.
 
3.  Crono and crew are not Dead in Another World.
 
4.  Guardia Kingdom Become Guardia Dome in 1999 AD, and Arris Dome is
    Ruled By Guardia.


Inconsistencies
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here I'm going to list any inconsistencies that I can see in my own
theory, and arguments to defend against them, if any.
 
1.  How Can Chronopolis exsist in Home world 7600 BC, and yet not exist
    in 2400?
 
    Well, because in the "REAL" dimension, or Another World,
    Chronopolis does exist, and the Dead Sea Only exsists after Lavos'
    intervention in Another World, Chronopolis exists up until the
    Time Split actually occurred. The Time split created a few
    inconsistencies in time, and soon after it occurred, The Dead Sea
    Formed because of one of these inconsistencies.

    (editor's notes:
    refer to Section 6 Dead Sea for some theories on the formation of
    the Dead Sea.)
 
2.  If Crono and Crew are alive in Another World after 1020 AD, then
    Why Does Lynx Say they're Dead. And Why Do the Ghost Children Say
    they are Dead?
 
    Lynx can say all he wants to say. It doesn't Change the Fact that
    He's the bad Guy, and can we really trust him? About the Ghost
    Children. They only appear in 3 places.
 
    A - The Dead Sea. The Dead Sea is in home world, and according to
        the Theory, they are in fact Dead in Home World.
 
    B - Opassa Beach. Also in Home World.
 
    C - Terra Tower, Another World. Keep in Mind that they Only appear
        in Belthasar's Library in Terra Tower. Belthasar says himself
        that the "Library" is actually a space out of time, ie a
        separate Dimension from Another World. So in truth, they are
        appearing in a 3rd Dimension, Not Home World.
 
3.  Chrono and Crew MAY not have defeated Lavos in 1999 AD. But then
    again, they may have....
 
4.  Guardia Dome Might Not Have been an actual Place in CT. I'm Basing
    this off of memory, so unless someone Knows For sure whether or not
    it is, this is THEORETICAL.
 
5.  Crono and Crew may not play an important role in the natural Flow
    of Time, ie Reinstate Guardia Kingdom. This is ENTIRELY
    THEORETICAL. It relies on future events that we can't possibly know
    of.
 
6   The Formation of the Dead Sea is something that nobody knows for
    sure about. This is merely a theory on how it may have formed, not
    fact. Again, THEORETICAL.

(editor's notes:
But as I read it, I found some small problems with it. "One That Was"
states that in 2300AD, in Another World, Crono+co gets to see Day of
Lavos in the bright future, yet in Home World, Crono+co do not get to
see the Day of Lavos. I am not sure if this is an inconsistency here.
Secondly, it was not Lynx who said Crono+co were dead. It was Miguel
who did.)

Zeality: Firstly, the dimensional split does not extend into the past, but rather goes from 1010 A.D. forward. Thus, events predating this year are unnecessary in the timelines presented. It is also apparent that this theory hinges on the notion that the Frozen Flame causes the Dead Sea, without apparent explanation. The Home Timeline is incorrect; Lavos in no way causes Serge to live -- that was purely an act of Kid, as according to Belthasar's plan. It is said that Lynx attempts to kill the Crono team and the Acacia Dragoons, yet failing in this regard allows Serge to live. Firstly, what do those organizations have to do with Serge? Secondly, there is no basis in the script for FATE attempting to kill the Crono team. In addition, the theory does not concur with the script's direct implication that the Dead Sea became such exactly on the split of the dimensions in 1010 AD.

Also, whether Crono views the Day of Lavos record in the Arris Dome in the future or not is irrelevant. This is impossible anyhow, as the entire ruined world and the timeline it resided on are banished into the Tesseract. The Grandfather Paradox is excused from the Chrono series; it is thus not necessary for Crono to view the Day of Lavos even if its origin has been eliminated by him, as time travelers retain their memories. Basic plot fact derails this theory quickly.


Theory 4: Binding with the Time Devourer
            (by Chrono Cross Ultimania Guide)

SCRIPT: "The one who connects with the Frozen Flame, in effect, links
        with Lavos itself. As the mediator between Lavos and living
        things, that one will gain extraordinary powers! By binding
        with the new seed of destruction... the "Devourer of Time!"
        – Belthasar

SCRIPT: "In the far-off future, when the fusion becomes complete, IT
        will awaken... Then, the Devourer of Time will begin to consume
        all space-time continua..." - Belthasar

What did Belthasar mean when he said "binding" with the Time Devourer?
This is what is said in the Chrono Cross Ultimania Guide, under the
section that explains the story:

"Home World is the irregular world that FATE was unable to control. In
this world, the Dead Sea exists instead of the Sea of Eden. This is
because, in the future on the time axis which Serge survived, is the
other future where Chronopolis does not exist. That is to say that the
scene that one can see in the Dead Sea is just waiting to happen. That
is the meaning it portrays. And the scene that was developed in the
Dead Sea, is the true form of the future that Crono and company should
have avoided (=killed), the future that was destroyed. In other words,
it is indicated in this place that, in the case if Serge were to
survive, the world will probably be destroyed.

"This is related to Serge being and "Arbiter." At the point in time
when Serge continues to survive, and at the point in time when Serge
visits the Dead Sea, because the possibility of him being absorbed into
the Time Devourer and landing the world to destruction is high, this
vision of the future is born. But, the future that is shown in this
place is a fluid-like and highly unstable. The Dead Sea's form will
transform to what form the future takes, according to Serge's actions
hereafter.

"The fusion of the Time Devourer becomes complete, when the one who can
free the Time Devourer, the body of the Arbiter is absorbed into in.
Because of this, when Serge survives and does not free the Time
Devourer, the world will lead to destruction in the near future. But,
even if Serge dies, the Time Devourer nesting at the darkness of time
continues its fusion, the world will still be eventually destroyed in
the far off future. As long as Serge does not free the Time Devourer
with the Chrono Cross, there will be no future."

Weak Areas
~~~~~~~~~~

POST:    "Miguel":
         "We know that Serge defeats (or at least seperates) the Time
         Devourer at the end. If this is so, he didn't merge right?
         Therefore this means no bad future. Therefore, how was the
         Dead Sea even there if the future it came from didn't exist?"
         
As we all know, Serge did NOT merge with the Time Devourer at the end
of the game. (Who in the right mind would do that? =P) If that's the
case, that means the future should not be devoured by the Time
Devourer. And the Dead Sea should not appear as it is.

Zeality: This holds that Serge shall be fused with the Time Devourer via the Frozen Flame and his Arbiter status, and the very possiblity of this occurring causes the Dead Sea to form. However, problems arise in the hard fact that possiblity does not cause events, and causal loops do not exist in the series. In addition, there is no basis for Serge merging with the Time Devourer. See the Axioms & Corollaries article; 'Flow Principle.'


4.    Time Split and Science[/u]

SCRIPT:  Lucca:
         "As Schala fell through the time gate in this condition, she
         heard your crying echoing through time... That is when her
         story and yours began to intertwine... It is also when the
         past and the future began to intersect, and when the world
         became divided into two..."

This muddies everything again. Was it in 12000AD when Schala fell into
the time gate? Was it in 1006AD when Serge's pitiful crying touched
Schala's heart?

Zeality: The crying essentially occurred in 1006 A.D.; note that this was the first key movement of Belthasar's plan, and the label of the beginning of the dimensional splitting can be applied here: the circumstances surrounding that crying are directly responsible for the events that caused the split in 1010 A.D.


4a. Time Splits and Quantum Mechanics

Zeality: Speculation no longer required; check 'On the Axioms, Corollaries of Temporal Transforms' article at the Compendium. Ockham's razor has slit this section's throat.


5.    Perpetuating Time Loop[/u]

One point brought up during the discussion in the Dead Sea / Sea of
Eden thread was the existence of Chronopolis in a continuous time loop.

POST:    "bubblebobby2000":
         "dun forget CC was never scientifically correct to begin with.
         If Chronopolis was drawn back in time to 10000 years ago, and
         it exists till 2400AD and then it gets drawn back again in an
         infinite loop, Chronopolis can never exist at all. (the
         Chronopolis walls will rot, decompose, and crumble so fast,
         you'll never get to see it exist for even a nanosecond)"

Assuming that Chronopolis existed in the Sea of Eden in 2400AD, and
Lavos pulled it back to the exact same spot in 7600BC, then the
timeline would look something like this.

                        Lavos pulls Chronopolis
        +<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<+
        |                                                    |
        |                                                    |
        V          Chronopolis exists in Sea of Eden         |
     ---o>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>o----
      7600BC                     1020AD                    2400AD

And Chronopolis would keep going round and round and round. But since
Chronopolis is a physical building, there was no way that it could
exist in an infinite loop without it dilapidating under climate
influences.

However, a very good argument was put up to resolve this perpetuating
time loop paradox.

POST:    "jason79":
         "Something else that some people apparently are still confused
         on: Chronopolis is not in a self-perpetuating timeloop.
         Chronopolis is built sometime between 2300~2400AD; it is NOT
         found in the Sea of Eden where it landed in the past. This is
         as old a paradox as the Grandfather Paradox. Chronopolis is a
         physical building; given enough time, it will decay to
         nothing. If it were in such a loop, where it's summoned to the
         past, survives from 7600BC back up to 2400AD, and gets
         summoned again, the rest of the world would see Chronopolis
         instantly turn to rubble and ash, because for the world, that
         period of 10,000 years only happens once; but for Chronopolis,
         it lives that 10,000 years over and over and over. But that
         would result in a paradox, which we know did not happen.
         Therefore the only logical conclusion to draw is that sometime
         after Chrono Cross, something happens to wipe out any possible
         evidence of Chronopolis's fate so that the scientists in
         2400AD perform their actions exactly as they did the first
         time. If they decide to do something different, because they
         saw what would happen to the city, then they might not perform
         the experiment, and then we're really in a paradox. Or, if you
         like, imagine that Chronopolis is built in an entirely
         different area in 2400AD, somewhere away from the Sea of Eden,
         so that there's no way they could find out about their fate;
         then there's no chance of a paradox, even if Chronopolis still
         existed there. But the point is that the Chronopolis we see in
         Chronopolis has already been summoned once; whatever else
         happens, it cannot be summoned to the past again, period."

If, like what "jason79" mentioned, Chronopolis was originally built in
an area far away from the Sea of Eden, then no perpetuating time loop
will occur. But even if it was built and drawn back to the same spot,
the loop can be easily resolved by annihilating Chronopolis and
rebuilding it later, as shown in the diagram below.

                        Lavos pulls Chronopolis
        +<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<+
        |                                                    |
        |                                                    |
        | Chronopolis            Chronopolis      Chronopolis|
        V    exists              annihilated         built   |
     ---o>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>>>>---------------->>>>>o--->
      7600BC                     1020AD                    2400AD

Zeality: To Serge, the observer, Chronopolis exists during the first run of Keystone T-2. It is there; it is possible that it could exist in a Time Loop in the future, but nothing is certain. Thus, it would not automatically rot; similarly, a man in 990 BC may have possibly killed Serge. He shall not automatically die. Everything is also stabilized by the observer, as said in Chronopolis. From one outside of time, perhaps if nothing existed to fix time, Chronopolis may be in an infinite loop. However, Serge is in the timeline, and Chronopolis is tangible and real. Though Chronopolis may exist over and over again, to Serge, this is the first 10,000 years its had to endure; these effects are thusly not manifested. In addition, if Project Kid essentially works for the first time, the Time Crash is no longer needed; the changes and saving of Schala wrought by Serge are ingrained.


6.    Dead Sea[/u]

Year of Formation of the Dead Sea
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Three pieces of conflicting evidence:

SCRIPT:  Marge:
         "Back then, that place wasn't called the Dead Sea...Yes, I
         believe they called it "Sea of Eden" ... That was 14 years
         ago."

Was it 1006AD (14 years ago)?

SCRIPT:  Radius:
         "The Dead Sea... That ocean was called the Sea of Eden until 3
         years ago..."

Or was it 1017AD (3 years ago)?

SCRIPT:  Miguel:
         "For 14 years... It wasn't like this when I got here,
         though... An incident that occured 10 years ago, transformed
         it into the Dead Sea."

Was it 1010AD (10 years ago)?

Most of us on the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden thread agree that the Dead Sea
was formed exactly 10 years ago, immediately when time split into
Another and Home World. The reason being, Miguel, who lived in the Dead
Sea for 14 years, actually knows what happens in there, and hence his
credibility is the highest.

Zeality: Marge comment: Understandable. She only had contact with the Sea of Eden fourteen years ago.

Radius comment. Understandable. The Dragoons personally experienced the Dead Sea, perhaps even contributing to its name.

Miguel comment: Understandable. He was captured in 1006 AD, and interred in 1010 AD.


6.a What led to its formation[/u]

Zeality: This section is nullified by the statement by Masato Kato that the Dead Sea is the ruined timeline Crono averted by killing Lavos, and a reflection of destruction that Serge causes. We'll still criticize theories, though its unnecessary...

Note:

Lithosphere Investigation Report and Company 2400 are both addressed in Compendium analysis; it shall appear in a forthcoming Dead Sea article.


6.b Theories

Theory 1: Prometheus-Day of Lavos Theory

Okay, as we can see the Dead Sea is in a bit of a mess. It is clear
that it comes from sometime in the future. It is also clear that it
does not belong in the eastern part of El Nido, that someone/something
has pulled it back. Now... I believe this is part of 1999AD and it was
Prom who pulled it back. This "pulling back" only applies to Home,
since it is Home's past which is threatened by the Serge/wrecked future
paradox.
 
Naturally Prometheus (or Robo if you want to call him that) would want
to prevent the ruined future, as well as the resulting paradox.
(Because he is "buddy buddy" with mankind) How could he accomplish
this? He would snag "Lavos/unspecified threat" before it surfaced in
1999AD (accidently pulling some of the surroundings with it - hence
Leene's Square and the city) back to the Sea of Eden in 1010AD, at the
point when it became a threat to history (due to the division of the
timelines happening at that point), which would of course destroy
Home's CP as short change in the bargain. And seal the Flame off for
good in Home...
 
Hence the Dead Sea is part 1999AD Truce City, part 1010AD Chronoplis.

Zeality: This has no factual basis or evidence in the script. Robo was integrated into the circuits of FATE well after 1999 A.D., and it is wholly unlikely that he had any temporal powers at all. The wrecked future causes the Dead Sea, yet this theory proposes that in order to avert the scene present in the Dead Sea, Robo pulls Lavos from 1999 A.D. and the area around him to the Sea of Eden -- which creates the Dead Sea! This is essentially a causal loop. Though one may assert that the destruction of the Dead Sea was real in the future, and merely seen in the Dead Sea prior to Prometheus' pulling the bleak future to create an actual Dead Sea, this is needless complication.On a minor note, the eruption of Lavos was located in front of Heckran Mountain.


Theory 2: Floating Chronopolis (by "Halbarad")

My own personal theory (not supported by much in the game,
      (unfortunately) is that Chronopolis originally existed in both
      worlds simultaneously; in other words, if you knew exactly how to
      enter and leave Chronopolis correctly, you could enter from Home
      and leave into Another. After Serge contacted the Frozen Flame
      (of which there is only one, not two), Prometheus locked out all
      access to the Flame, except to the Arbiter (Serge). FATE became
      frantic at this point, as its power source was disrupted.
      However, it had enough resources still at this point to
      'maintain the status quo' in both worlds. When a moment of
      quantum uncertainty occurred involving the Arbiter (Serge's
      death/near-death by drowning 10 years ago) occurred, the
      imbalance created threw Chronopolis and the Flame totally into
      Another (leaving Miguel in Home, probably through the actions of
      FATE). The gap left by the departing Chronopolis in Home was
      filled by random bits of space-time -- from the 'darkness beyond
      time' perhaps -- which happened to be from the nullified timeline
      in which Lavos destroyed the world in 1999 AD. These components
      solidified into what became known as the Dead Sea. (This is the
      event 10 years ago that changed the Dead Sea, which Miguel
      mentions). With the Flame and Chronopolis (and FATE) on one side
      of the dimensional rift and the Arbiter on the other, an
      imperfect balance was created that held both worlds steady for
      another 10 years, when the actions of Kid at Opassa Beach in
      Another, coinciding with Serge's presence there in Home, caused
      the formation of the Angelum Errare and the rest, as they say, is
      history (or is it?)

Zeality: This theory is critically flawed in that the dimensional split occurred long after Chronopolis was built as a tenet of Project Kid; Home and Another did not always exist, and for the formation of the Dead Sea itself is attributed to the future of Chronopolis in the Home dimension. This theory is nearly correct in asserting that Chronopolis is taken completely into Another, yet flawed in that there are indeed two Frozen Flames and that the Dead Sea ruins probably feature Chronopolis. Also, attributing the appearance of the ruined timeline that Crono averted to happenstance is weak. Lastly, Serge became the Arbiter in 1006 A.D., yet the dimensional split occurred in 1010 A.D. -- well after his Arbiter status and the resulting imbalance would have set him at odds with the Another, which retained Chronopolis and the Flame.


Theory 3: Time-tunnel (by "bubblebobby2000")

This theory, the Prometheus's Time-net, and the Space-Time-Fold theory
makes a very important assumption that explains why the Dead Sea only
occupies the area as big as the Sea of Eden was. The assumption is that
in 2400AD, when the Counter-Time Experiment failed and the Flame went
out of control, a circular dimensional vortex was created. The size of
this dimension vortex was equivalent to the size of the Sea of Eden and
the Dead Sea, like that:

           +------------------+
           |                  |
           |            +++++ |
           |           +     +|
           |           +  CP +|
           |           +     +|
           |            +++++ |
           |                  |
           +------------------+


Let's reduce the size of the huge map above to this:

     [  o]

The '[   ]' represents the Chrono Cross map, and the 'o' represents the
size of the small Sea of Eden.

When the dimension vortex was opened up, it created a time-tunnel that
connected itself back to 7600BC allowed Chronopolis to slip backwards
to that time. The size of the time-tunnel, was of course only as large
as the small Sea of Eden was.

                               Time tunnel
                 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
                 V                                     ^
          ----[  o]--------------[  o]--------------[  o]----
             7600BC             1010AD             2400AD

Time splits in 1010AD. The time tunnel was duplicated up to the point
where it splits. So we should have something like this:

                               Time tunnel
                 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
                 V                                     ^
          ----[  o]--------------[  o]--------------[  o]---- (Another)
             7600BC             1010AD             2400AD
                                 [  o]--------------[  o]---- (Home)
                                    ^                  V
                                    oooooooooooooooooooo

Rightfully, everything should have been duplicated at 1010AD. The
Dragon Gods, Chronopolis, Dinopolis, even Kid, Harle and Lynx. But
Serge's survival actually nullified Crono+co's efforts, in effect
causing Day of Lavos to occur in 1999AD.

                               Time tunnel
                 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
                 V                                     ^
          ----[  o]--------------[  o]----[  o]-----[  o]---- (Another)
             7600BC             1010AD   1999AD    2400AD
                                    o
                                    o
                                    o
                                    o      DOL      Ruins
                                 [  ?]----[  X]-----[  X]---- (Home)
                                    ^                  V
                                    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Because everything was duplicated in 1010AD, Chronopolis, in the small
Sea of Eden was also duplicated. And the time-tunnel that was
duplicated in Home World drew a chunk of the ruins back from 2400AD. Of
course the size of the ruins drawn back was only as large as the small
Sea of Eden was.

Now then, we have a paradox. Chronopolis was being duplicated in the
small Sea of Eden in 1010AD, and the ruins were getting pulled back to
the small Sea of Eden in 1010AD. This causes the two different slices
to smash together, causing the 'Time Crash', messing up everything
together to form the Dead Sea.

Zeality: This theory is wounded by the nature of the gates Lavos is able to create. In Chrono Trigger, we witness that disruptive instances of time travel caused by this being are transitory; the gate at Magus castle and the ones that occurred in the Lavos Timeline's Ocean Palace are temporary. Thus, this Time-Tunnel, which would appropriately be the gate by which Lavos pulled Chronopolis to 7600 B.C., would be a textbook case of the nature of time traveling done by Lavos. I'm also not sure if this theory purports that the Time Crash is the product of Chronopolis being mingled with its ruins in the future; we know from the script that the Time Crash was simply the effect of the failed Counter-Time Experiment, and nothing more -- save that it provided Lavos a chance to pull Chronopolis back. Lastly, the notion that Chronopolis retains temporal links with the future, evident in FATE's great effort to avoid changing its former timeline's history, simplifies the matter by proposing that once Chronopolis is ruined in the future by a set event, the Sea of Eden essentially reflects and becomes that slice of ruined future.


Theory 4: Prometheus Time-net (by "jason79")

This theory is the merging of theory 1, Prometheus/Day of Lavos and
theory 3, Time-tunnel.

There are some slight differences though. In the original world
(Another World), instead of the time-tunnel being in effect, what
happens is that Lavos pulls Chronopolis back from 2400AD.

                         Lavos pulls Chronopolis
                 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
                 V                                     ^
          ----[  o]--------------[  o]--------------[  o]----
             7600BC             1010AD             2400AD

Time split in 1010AD. Remember that Home split off from Another, so
they have identical pasts up to 1010AD, but I think I'm safe to say
that Home's Chronopolis is no longer dependant upon a Chronopolis being
summoned from the future, because it's in effect a duplicate; only
Another's Chronopolis is dependant upon being summoned, because it's
within a self-perpetuating timeloop governed by the limits I stated
above concerning the lack of knowledge on the scientists' parts. Think
of Home's Chronopolis as a temporal orphan, if you will.

                         Lavos pulls Chronopolis
                 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
                 V                                     ^
          ----[  o]--------------[  o]--------------[  o]---- (Another)
             7600BC             1010AD             2400AD
          |                     |
          |      duplicated     |
          V                     V
          ----[  o]---------[  o]                                      


However, the problem comes in when Home's Lavos tries to summon as
well. He's pulling from the same space-time coordinates as his Another
counterpart, but he's gonna get a devastated chunk of the future
instead. The logic continuance of this line of thought is that, when
that chunk of future hits, it's going to be in 7600BC, at the same time
as the duplicate of Chronopolis. This is indeed the Time Crash, because
we have two separate slices of time literally crashing together, the
result being the Dead Sea.  

The problem with this is that we now have a paradox. Home's Chronopolis
is no longer dependant upon whatever's summoned from the future, but
Serge and the rest of El Nido are dependant upon Home's Chronopolis
creating the islands, populating them, and surviving long enough for
Serge to come into contact with the Flame; that last is necessary in
order to remain temporally consistent with what we know Home's future
will become. Obviously that's a problem, and equally obviously we know
it didn't happen. The game explicitly says the Dead Sea formed 10 years
ago, i.e. 1010AD.  

Let's say Prometheus somehow has control of some power (we'll say it's
the Flame for now). Let's also assume that somehow, Prometheus can
detect the slice of future that's being summoned to the past by Lavos.
It's then plausible that he extrapolated the likely outcome
(Chronopolis and the dead future resulting in the Time Crash), realized
that this would create a serious paradox, and decided to use the Flame
in order to snag the slice of future on its way to the past. We can
assume that Chronopolis in 2400AD was built in the same place as it
appeared in 7600BC, that it never moved around physically. So, when the
city is summoned by Lavos, it only moves through time, not space. All
Prometheus would have to do is effectively throw out a time net (or use
the Flame as a temporal magnet, or whatever explanation floats your
boat) and catch the slice of dead future before it can continue on to
7600BC.

                         Lavos pulls Chronopolis
                 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
                 V                                     ^
          ----[  o]--------------[  o]--------------[  o]---- (Another)
          |  7600BC             |1010AD            2400AD
          |                     |
          |      duplicated     |
          V                     V
          ----[  o]---------[  o][  X]--------------[  X]---- (Home)
                                    ^                  V
                                    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
                                      Lavos pulls ruins
                                Caught by Prometheus in 1010AD

Zeality: This theory is flawed in the same aspects as are the theories it combines; in addition, Home Dimension's Lavos summoning Chronopolis in the future has not happened yet. It is simply a matter of possibility, and possibility alone carries no weight in the Chrono series. Provided Serge had died and we were given the chance to see how the future of Home Dimension played out, perhaps this may have been fathomable; nonetheless, to the observer, the future is unwritten -- precisely how Serge is able to exercise free will under the plan of Belthasar and mend time. Lastly, Lavos would have no need to summon Chronopolis back in the future of Home Dimension anyhow; the destruction the parasite intended to occur in 1999 A.D. would have happened.


Theory 5: Space-Time Fold

Imagine El Nido as a flat slice of pancake and you look at it from the
side view. You should be able to see something like this:

    +------------------+
    |                  |
    |            +++++ |
    |           +     +|
    |           +  CP +|
    |           +     +|
    |            +++++ |
    |                  |
    +------------------+

    --------------------  <- El Nido sea (sideview)

Imagine this plane and flat pancake representing a point in time in the
Chrono Cross universe. Then if we stack up several slices of El Nido
pancakes of different times on top of each other, we get to see a
'timeline' like this:

    --------------------  past
    --------------------
    --------------------
    --------------------
    --------------------
    --------------------
    --------------------
    --------------------  future

The Sea of Eden or the Dead Sea is at one same place in the El Nido
seas. They exist in different dimensions, but they exist in the very
same location.

    +------------------+
    |                  |
    |            +++++ |
    |           +     +|
    |           +  CP +|
    |           +   <-++----- Sea of Eden (circular area)
    |            +++++ |
    |                  |
    +------------------+

    ------------+-----+-
                   ^
                 Sea of Eden (circular area)

Now let's imagine that we have the timeline from 7600BC up to 12400AD.
And let's draw it out by laying many slices of pancakes on top of each
other. Let's also mark out some of the major events in the timeline
necessary to explain this theory. For convenience sake, I have marked
out the areas inside and outside the Sea of Eden with a numbered label.

    -01---------+01---+-  7600BC
    -02---------+02---+-
    -03---------+03---+-
    -04---------+04---+-
    -05---------+05---+-
    -06---------+06---+-
    -07---------+07---+-  1010AD
    -08---------+08---+-
    -09---------+09---+-        
    -10---------+10---+-
    -11---------+11=C=+-  2400AD    Chronopolis established.
    -12---------+12=C=+-            
    -13---------+13=C=+-
    -14---------+14=C=+-
    -15---------+15=C=+-
    -16---------+16=C=+-
    -17---------+17=C=+-
    -18---------+18=C=+-
    -19---------+19=C=+-
    -20---------+20=C=+-      =C= indicates Chronopolis

Once you can convince yourself that you can look at the timeline this
way, we can pretty much start discussing the gist of the theory:

In 2400AD, a counter-time experiment fails, Chronopolis (and Dinopolis)
was hurled back into the past. The counter-time experiment did
something to warp time and space, causing Chronopolis to appeared to
have been yanked back into the past.

    -01---------[01---]-  7600BC
    -02---------[02---]-
    -03---------[03---]-
    -04---------[04---]-
    -05---------[05---]-
    -06---------[06---]-
    -07---------[07---]-  1010AD
    -08---------[08---]-
    -09---------[09---]-
    -10---------+10---+-  2300AD    Chronopolis starts to build.
    -11---------(11=C=)-  2400AD    Chronopolis established.
    -12---------(12=C=)-            
    -13---------(13=C=)-
    -14---------(14=C=)-
    -15---------(15=C=)-
    -16---------(16=C=)-
    -17---------(17=C=)-
    -18---------(18=C=)-
    -19---------(19=C=)-      --- indicates ocean
    -20---------+20---+-      =C= indicates Chronopolis

                          [] Space-Time Fold 1
                          () Space-Time Fold 2

Anytime before 2300AD, when someone from outside the Sea of Eden walks
into the Sea of Eden, he/she will go 10000 years into the future. When
someone from inside the Sea of Eden walks out from the Sea of Eden,
he/she will go back 10000 years into the past.

Anytime after 2400AD, when someone from outside the Sea of Eden walks
into the Sea of Eden, he/she will go 10000 years into the past. When
someone from inside the Sea of Eden walks out from the Sea of Eden,
he/she will go back 10000 years into the future.

Say for example, you are a research in Chronopolis 2400AD. If you walk
out of the Sea of Eden, you go back into 7600BC. If you live in 1010AD
and you walk into the Sea of Eden, you walk into 11010AD.

This applies to light, sound, and molecules and any other particles.
This is the formula:

                   Outside     Inside
   If X<2300AD     X           X+10000 years
   If X>2400AD     X           X-10000 years

Since the space-time-fold affects light, then it 'appears' that
Chronopolis was pulled back in time this way:

    -01---------+11=C=+-  7600BC    
    -02---------+12=C=+-
    -03---------+13=C=+-
    -04---------+14=C=+-
    -05---------+15=C=+-
    -06---------+16=C=+-
    -07---------+17=C=+-  1010AD    Serge dies
    -08---------+18=C=+-
    -09---------+19=C=+-
    -10---------+10---+-  2300AD    Chronopolis starts to build.
    -11---------+01---+-  2400AD    Chronopolis. Counter-Time Exp.
    -12---------+02---+-            
    -13---------+03---+-
    -14---------+04---+-
    -15---------+05---+-
    -16---------+06---+-
    -17---------+07---+-
    -18---------+08---+-
    -19---------+09---+-      --- indicates ocean
    -20---------+20???+-      =C= indicates Chronopolis

As you can see, it looks as though the slices 01-09 inside the Sea of
Eden were 'exchanged' with the slices 11-19.

    -01---------+11=C=+-
      ^           ^
      |           +---------- year inside Sea of Eden = 2400AD
      |
      +---------------------- year outside Sea of Eden = 7600BC

    -11---------+01---+-
      ^           ^
      |           +---------- year inside Sea of Eden = 7600BC
      |
      +---------------------- year outside Sea of Eden = 2400AD

As I have said, the space-time-fold affects every smallest particle in
the world. So if an earthquake occurs here at slice #15,

    -15---------+05---+-

it will affect slice #05 inside the Sea of Eden. The original
Chronopolis inside the Sea of Eden slice #15 is left unharmed.

In other words, no one from the future can 'see' Chronopolis existing,
except after slice #20. But this is beyond the discussion here.

Now, the above figure actually shows the Another World timeline. Let's
look at Home World's timeline. In Home World, Serge is killed by Lynx
but saved by Kid. Serge's survival is the key to the destruction of the
world. In particular, Serge wakes the Frozen Flame and binds or merges
with the Time Devourer. The Time Devourer completes its form, and
awakes somewhere in the future to devour time. In order to avoid
paradoxes of Serge not being able to live and hand the Frozen Flame
over to it, Time-Devourer awakes after 11010AD and swallows everything
into nothingness.

The key thing here is that space-time-fold does not affect the Time-
Devourer.

    -01---------+11=C=+-  7600BC    
    -02---------+12=C=+-
    -03---------+13=C=+-
    -04---------+14=C=+-
    -05---------+15=C=+-
    -06---------+16=C=+-
    -07---------+17=C=+-  1010AD    Serge supposed to die.
    -08---------+18???+-
    -09---------+19???+-
    -10---------+10---+-  2300AD    Chronopolis starts to build.
    -11---------+01---+-  2400AD    Chronopolis. Counter-Time Exp.
    -12---------+02---+-            
    -13---------+03---+-
    -14---------+04---+-
    -15---------+05---+-
    -16---------+06---+-
    -17---------+07---+- 11010AD    Time Devourer wakes here.
    ?18?????????+08---+?
    ?19?????????+09---+?      --- indicates ocean
    ?20?????????+20???+?      =C= indicates Chronopolis
                              ??? indicates non-existent future

Thus, when the Time-Devourer consumes everything from 11010AD onwards,
all slices that belong after 11010AD (slice #18 onwards) disappears.

No more time exists after the year 11010AD. In addition to that, the
Time-Devourer also consumed the space after 11010AD. This should have
caused the slices #18-19 inside the Sea of Eden to be empty (Darkness
Beyond Time). But by some form of unexplained unstableness that
disallow the existence of 'emptiness' in the Sea of Eden, parts of what
the Time-Devourer swallowed gets sucked back into it, forming a mess of
things fused together to give us the Dead Sea.

Zeality: It is stated that:

IT will awaken...Then, the Devourer of Time will begin to consume all space-time continua... Despair and hatred... To return all things to nothingness... That is what IT desires.

It is blatantly suggested that the Time Devourer will devour reality itself, and not only time and space beyond the date of its awakening. Other than that, this theory is harmonious with the Chrono series, though it may be a simpler effort to hold that Chronopolis simply has temporal connections with the future, rather than implying that it exists in a perpetual future state -- a fact unbacked by the script. Lastly, this implies that the space-time continuum isn't ruined at the point of the Time Crash, since time still apparently flows in the future. This is a possibility, but the vague nature of the Crash denies any detail.


7.   Salt for the Dead Sea


Theory 1: The Dead Sea Absorbs Adventurers (by "Miguel")

It is also possible that Robo wanted to protect the Flame from Viper,
Lynx and Porre. What better way to protect Home's Flame than to hide it
in a sea that slowly absorbs any adventurers that enter it?

Zeality: How might Robo have any control over where the Frozen Flame exists anyway, especially in a ruined, frozen timeline? He is an immovable circuit within Chronopolis, whose Home World equivalent was destroyed in the formation of the Dead Sea in 1010 A.D. Unless Robo has specific motives and dimensional powers, this is impossible. There is also no basis in the script for this physical phenomenon; Serge appears to be fine as he treks through the Dead Sea.


Theory 2: Fluidity of the Dead Sea (by "bubblebobby2000")

The Dead Sea is a highly unstable place. Call it 'fluid' if you wish.
If Serge decides not to approach the Frozen Flame, then the bleak
future will be unable to exist. And the Dead Sea will revert back to
the way it was, ie. Chronopolis.

Three years ago, in Home World, the Acacia Dragoons decided to approach
the Frozen Flame (remnants of the swallowed up Chronopolis ruins) in
the Dead Sea, they unconsciously was trying to prevent Serge from
accessing the Frozen Flame in Home World, in effect reducing the
chances the Time-Devourer from awakening in Home World. Hence the
dimension in the Dead Sea might have reverted to Chronopolis for a
while, crushing the bodies of the Acacia Dragoons with whatever that
came into existence for that short period of time. Once they were dead,
the Dead Sea reverts itself back to the dead future form.

GrayLensman: This theory deals with fluctuating probabilites, and is thus irrelevant.  From an external observer, i.e. a time traveler, any timeline is static.  Only when a time traveler introduces new "randomness" does the timeline change.  Of course, we know that the timeline did not start out with the time travelers changes.  A new, yet still static, timeline is instantly created.


8.   Dead Sea Evaporated


Theory 2: Miguel as a Guardian (by "Halbarad")

When Serge died/lived, the space-time continnum in Home World was changed; the Dead Sea, which was filled with a bit of space-time from
2400 AD/Another. When the future was changed by Serge's survival (to
the destroyed timeline of pre-defeat CT), that bit of space-time was
still drawn from 2400-the only problem was that instead of Chronopolis,
it drew bits of the ruined world of 2400 AD pre-defeat into Home World-
this would also explain why it was composed of random fragments of
buildings thrown together. I'm guessing that the draw would have been
temporary; it says that Miguel was set as the guardian of the Dead Sea
(he had previously been located in Chronopolis) with difficulty. I
admit it does not say what the difficulty was, but it could be that the
Dead Sea would dissipate without some sort of influence to hold it in
place. (pure speculation I know, but so is some of y'all's stuff.) Thus
when Miguel dies, there is no longer any influence holding the Dead Sea
together (remember, FATE still can't directly interact with Home, as it
has no access to the Flame yet); when Miguel dies, the Dead Sea
disperses as it would have done 10 years previously had it not had a
guardian.

Zeality: The primary problem with this theory is the question of how the Dead Sea existed for the intermission between its creation and the placement of Miguel in as the integral guardian. Miguel would have to be an actual part of the Dead Sea and be present from its creation forward for this concept to be temporally sound, and this is not the case. Miguel himself remarks that FATE shall destroy the Dead Sea and Home World's Frozen Flame.


9.    In The Unified Timeline


Theory 1: Unified Timeline (by "skane")

Yes, Serges' existence would have brought about the day of Lavos as he enabled FATE access to the frozen flame, but remeber that after he does this he became irrelevant to FATEs plan (she tries to kill him after
all). From this point on Serge existence ensures that Lavos will be
beaten.  
 
Also, in the original time line (i.e. crono trigger), Schala was not
merged with Lavos (that only happened because stupid crono shoved a
sword in Lavos' eye). The entity threating the Chrono Cross world is
not Lavos but the Schala/Mammon Machine entity, so the ''Day of Lavos''
itself is no longer a threat because the creature responsible no-longer
exists. The references to it in Cronopolis come from Belthasars own
memory (as he says in Terra Tower he rbought knowledge of the past into
the future).  
 
So the situation now is Lavos has become a different entity, and the
Day of Lavos had been replaced by the threat of the Time Devourer
destroying the timeline itself. Since Serge and co defeat the being in
the Tesseract, outside of time, the only affect it has on the timeline
is to remove the threat of the Time Devourer. Now, with FATE the
Dragons, and Schala/Mammon entity gone, there is nothing left to
threaten El Nido.  
 
What does this have to do with the unified time line?  
the worlds split because Schala reached out to Serge before she was
consumed by the Mammon Machine. By destroying that being Serge has also destroyed the split in time, if Schala was rescued she didn't need to
call out, but she only called out because she needed rescuing... a
self-refrancing cycle starts. The two time lines will converge now much
like what was seen in the sea of Eden with a destroyed time line. Since
Serge is alive it must be Another World which is destroyed, but since
half his party came from there the destruction of that time line would
kill them. That cannot happen so the only other alternative is for a
new line to start (from the point where Kid saves Serge, 1010) which
includes everyone recruited into the party. So in this line, the
Dragoons will not be dead, BUT Dario will still have been possessed by
the Masamune in place of Garai, who will have died just as he did in
the original home time line. The only people who would have any clue
that the changes were there would be those who fought alongside Serge
and each one of them would have a place in the new time-line.  
 
For example, Orlha may go home to find Tia still alive or the faerie
village would not have been destroyed by the dwarves etc. This also
means that the Dragon gods would still exist in thier split forms
though. That happened before the timeline was first split.

Zeality: This theory is not temporally sound; time and time again it has been proven that the Grandfather Paradox is excused from the series' mechanics. How would Chrono Cross even be possible if Crono had eliminated his ever seeing the Day of Lavos record, which was responsible for Trigger? Causal loops are thankfully absent from the series; thus, whether Schala calls out to Serge to initiate the adventure is irrelevant once the dimensions are unified. This theory also makes several shaky plot assumptions, such assuming that the ruined future is caused by FATE having access to the Frozen Flame (amazing, considering FATE had access to the Frozen Flame for a good 8620 years before the events of the game occur); this is also dependent on possibility, rendering it critically flawed.


Theory 2: Radical Dreamers Timeline (by "Miguel")

I believe that the timeline that results from Another and Home merging is the world of Radical Dreamers. Now this has been dismissed before, due to the following reason: The diary in Chronopolis mentioned RD, yet it was written before the RD world would have taken place.  
 
However, I believe otherwise. That diary? I think it was Belthasar's.
This is possible - he lived in 2300, and the diary (from 2400AD)
mentions "grandfather's closet." Now, all we heard of the diary was a
little bit of RD's opening text but I have a sneaking suspicion that
Belthasar had written "instructions" of some sort within that journal
that wasn't included in the computer records. These "instructions"
would naturally involve his descendant going to CP and direct/influence
the order of things within Cp to lead up to the world which Belthasar
could only have envisioned...  
 
Now I know there is a lot of controvosy over whether B can see the
future or not, but remember - He has been in contact with the Flame.
And Schala (with the powers of Lavos) is within the Flame. Use your
imagination people...! Surely Belthasar couldn't have pulled off this
whole escapede without help from other sources?

Zeality: Unfortunately, the Radical Dreamers dimension was labeled an alternate dimension by Serge's party at Chronopolis, and the diary proves that it did exist before the unification of the dimensions. Thus, it being a result is temporally impossible.

20

Time, Space, and Dimensions / On The Axioms & Corollaries Of Temporal Transforms

« on: January 29, 2004, 07:11:14 pm »

This is a scenario I described to Zeality in a chat session recently.  It pertains to one of the Axioms, namely:

How Changing the Past Affects Those Time Travelers whose Past Now No Longer Exists

Assume there is a man that by a time, X, has experienced a certain set of events, {E1, E2, E3, E4...E(inf)}. Assume an event, E4, occurs at a time Y. Suppose the man travels to a time T, where T<Y. If time is altered at a time A, where T<A<Y, so as to eliminate E4, the man remains exactly the same as though the time change at A never happened and the causal effects leading the man to time T remain.

If Crono time travels from 1000 AD to 600 AD, the original timeline from 600 AD onward is sent into the Darkness Beyond Time.  A new timeline is instantaneously created, containing all of the changes Crono made to the past.

Crono's past world line is sent into the darkness along with everything else.  This means it is impossible to change anything about Crono's past, prior to him entering the Time Gate in 1000 AD.  No changes made to the new timeline, for all time, can prevent Crono from emerging from a Gate in 600 AD.  Even if the world is destroyed millions of years earlier, Crono would simply emerge from the Gate into empty space.

Now, if Crono returns to 1000 AD through a Gate, he is not changing the (relative) past, so no new timeline is created.  Traveling into the future does not protect Crono from changes to his world line from 600 AD onwards.  If someone else were to travel to a time period prior to 600 AD, Crono's present existence in 1000 AD would be destroyed (sent into the darkness).  Crono would emerge from the Time Gate in 600 AD into a new timeline created by the other traveler.

This means that Crono can rewrite the future world lines of the three Guru's.  They are not afforded any protection from Crono's meddling by their forward time travel.  The original future versions of the gurus are sent into the Darkness Beyond Time.  However, Magus traveled backwards through time.  The Prophet had full protection from any changes he made to his past world line.

21

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Enigma Of Sun Stone And Keep

« on: December 28, 2003, 11:14:36 pm »

This is Lucca's description about her sidequest, and I can't believe I overlooked it all this time.

Lucca: Solar energy was used aeons ago, well before Lavos Energy existed... It might be just the thing we need to defeat Lavos...

First thing, Lucca definitively states that the Sun Stone is solar powered, if there was any doubt.

Lucca also states that the use of the Sun Stone predated Lavos Energy, which could have two meanings.  She could be refering to the Zealians' use of the Sun Stone before their reliance on the Mammon Machine, or that the Reptites made use of it before Lavos' arrival.

Since Lucca uses the words "before Lavos Energy existed", and not "before it was made available", it suggests that the Sun Stone was used before Lavos' came into the picture.  If this were true, it would disprove the theory that the Zealians created the Sun Stone.

22

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Continuity of Radical Dreamers

« on: December 28, 2003, 10:55:35 pm »

This has been troubling me lately.  Originally, Radical Dreamers was a sequel to Chrono Trigger, but Crono Cross removes the events of RD from official continuity.  Based on the computer archives in Chronopolis, it appears that Radical Dreamers takes place in a separate universe from Chrono Trigger and Cross.  My question is: does this still mean that Radical Dreamers is a Chrono Trigger sequel?  Is the past timeline of Radical Dreamers the same as Chrono Trigger, or does RD simply refer to some things which also happened to appear in CT?

23

Chrono Compendium Discussion / Where is the member list?

« on: December 15, 2003, 04:43:02 pm »

I can't find it anywhere.  Was this feature disabled in the latest version of the Compendium's message boards?