Messages

31

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space

« on: October 24, 2006, 05:40:25 pm »

The question is not where did Magus's castle go, but rather, did Magus's castle go anywhere? The disappearance of the castle could be explained by other, less complicated events.

Magus' castle didn't go anywhere.  We know this because of what you already said about Ozzie, Slash, and Flea running off to Ozzie's fort.  Other evidence that clearly shows Magus' castle was still present in 600 A.D. was that after the enormous gate (which I agree with the proposal that it was actually created by Lavos, although it was Magus' summoning spell that actually created the linkage from Lavos' pocket dimension to Magus' chambers) closed, Magus' chambers were still present and presumably somewhat intact.  A temporal distortion of that magnitude could have caused the castle to become structurally unsound.  We also are given hints that the castle was still present by this quote:

[Knight]
   Since you didn't come out of
   Magus's castle, I simply thought...

This implies that there was still a castle there, although it may or may not have been in one piece. 

Also, we are given a hint that the human army "easily" defeated the mystic army after Magus' disappearance with these quotes:

[Knight Captain]
   We destroyed Magus's troops and
   we owe it all to Crono.

[Knight]
   Magus's troops are pretty tame
   when he's not leading them!

Anyway, it's very possible that the humans themselves destroyed Magus' castle, although I would be more inclined to think that it became structurally unsound after the huge gate in Magus' chambers closed, and the castle eventually crumbled to the ground. 

 

32

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory

« on: October 12, 2006, 12:10:20 am »

The problem with this Armageddon Branch Theory is that the Black Omen transcends time and space and is connected to Lavos.  Now we know from past theory on Lavos' pocket dimension that Lavos exists in a dimension that is connected to a number of timelines, and because Lavos' pocket dimension is not exactly inside nor outside the flow of time but transcendent, we see that Lavos will exist right up until the point where it dies, whether by natural or unnatural causes.  Let's say Lavos dies of unnatural causes, ie, Crono & co.  So, what we have now is Lavos' pocket dimension existing up to a point in time and then it disappears.  Lavos and its pocket dimension are sent to the DBT from that point onward.  So, what you see is that Lavos' pocket dimension ends up being transcendent up until a point and then the connection is severed. 

Now, after all of this you may be wondering how this is connected at all to the Black Omen.  The Black Omen works in a similar fashion, as it too transcends time and space.  Now, if the Omen is destroyed in a certain time period, the connection, like with Lavos' pocket dimension, is severed after that point.  This indicates the following:

1) If the Black Omen is destroyed in a time period other than 12,000 B.C., it will remain in 12,000 B.C. and following timelines up until the point it was destroyed because the Omen itself is still at least partially still in those timelines before it was destroyed.  I am saying partially because of the transcendent nature of the Omen. 

2) It is ambiguous as to what timeline Lavos is summoned from when the Omen is destroyed.  We know the physical connection point that was severed with the Omen because we know what time period Crono & co. entered it in.  What we don't know definitively is how this transcendent nature plays out when Lavos is summoned - Lavos could have been summoned from any time period the Omen was physically present in before it was destroyed.  We know that this time period, however, had to have been sometime between 12,000 B.C. and 1999 A.D. because when returning to fight Lavos by using the bucket gate to 1999 A.D. from the End of Time, we see that Lavos' outer shell is damaged and defeated.   


Now, my personal thoughts on this are that Lavos was defeated in 1999 A.D.  The evidence I see for this is that when Crono & co. fight Lavos, the gate inside of its shell returns them to the End of Time through the gate contained in the bucket (they land right next to the bucket at the End of Time).  While this could just be a game mechanic, it does suggest that no matter what route Crono & co. takes, the "when" of fighting Lavos is still the same - 1999 A.D.       

33

Polling / Re: 2006-10-04 Chrono Trigger Retranslation

« on: September 28, 2006, 04:59:01 pm »

I'd love to see a re-translation - it may give some more clues to some things I still haven't figured out about the game. 

34

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: DBoruta's Ocean Palace Flame Theory

« on: September 18, 2006, 11:18:29 pm »

Wow I wish I checked this site more often than I do...


Ok, yeah, this is really complicated - I think moreso than I realized when I wrote it.  I'll try to answer your questions but I don't know if I can answer them all fully.

If Lavos reunited with the Mammon Machine's Frozen Flame in the original timeline, why does he try to reunite again in the modified timeline? He already has a version of the Flame, another version would just get time-bastardized. Plus the attempt is so dangerous that it's not worth the effort (and the attempt did indeed fail in the modified timeline).

Speaking of Time Bastard, if the Frozen Flame entered a pocket dimension in the first timeline, shouldn't it disappear in the second timeline instead of entering another, different (?) pocket dimension?

I hope I'm understanding this - so you're asking why did Lavos try to reunite with the Frozen Flame again in the modified timeline of Chrono Trigger, right?  If you are, this would be my reasoning behind it - think back to Time Error, where Crono & Co. are moving along a 5D "axis of time" where 4D time as we know it is held constant like points on a coordinate plane.  So, what we're seeing in the events of Chrono Trigger isn't really Lavos attempting to reunite with the Flame again, but Lavos' first attempt to reunite with the Flame.  I could be wrong here, but I think that's the best way to think about it.  I'm not sure exactly how Time Bastard will come into play here - the timeline where Lavos is reunited with the Frozen Flame could have just been sent to the DBT time instead, but I don't know what really happened there.

As far as Time Bastard in relation to the Frozen Flame's pocket dimension goes, I'm not sure it can be applied that way.  Again, I'm thinking back along the lines of a Time Error approach from Crono & Co.'s perspective, where in the normal timeline the Frozen Flame would have become one with Lavos again.  This would mean that in the normal timeline the pocket dimension created by the Frozen Flame would have dissipated or would have been absorbed into Lavos' pocket dimension.  In the modified timeline, this doesn't happen, so the Frozen Flame stays in its pocket dimension. 

Also how was Lavos reunited with the Flame? Lavos dies in CT but the Flame doesn't follow him in the Darkness of Time, so it wasn't really united right?

Right.  In CT, Lavos wasn't reunited with the Frozen Flame after Crono & Co. intervened (assuming the Frozen Flame actually was where I hypothesized it was).  In the original timeline, Lavos was never sent to the DBT, and the Black Omen never rose from the ocean.  These two things point to a conclusion that Lavos was united with the Frozen Flame after the Ocean Palace disaster in 12,000 B.C. in the original timeline, but not in the modified timeline. 

Hope this helps - it's been a long time since I originally thought about this stuff so it's going to be difficult for me to reword the whole theory. 

 

35

Time, Space, and Dimensions / discuss? help?

« on: March 15, 2006, 11:30:22 am »

This sounds like you're talking about the "Butterfly Effect".  While I don't totally buy into it, every action does have a consequence and I would say that our actions do affect others to a degree.

The world of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, however, shows much more emphasis on the Butterfly Effect - every action performed by Crono & co. or Serge & co. has a much more significant consequence due to the nature of the situations they are in.

36

Time, Space, and Dimensions / 1999 Differing From The System

« on: March 13, 2006, 12:05:14 pm »

Ehh... in short: The future both exists and doesn't exist. I tried to show this with the diagrams, with the future part being sorta gray. The future's not there, but it's likely it'll be there.

...

My point, put clearer: Lavos time is the present.
 

Ok, I understand where you are coming from now with this - you're trying to apply relativity and some quantum to 4-D time in a way that the future is a "guess" but not really reality.  At first glance, it seems reasonable, but if you take it from the perspective that each part of time is just a 4-D point along an axis, where the relativistic perspective you are taking is someone looking at it all from the End of Time or some other 5-D junction point for 4-D, you see  that all 4-D has happened, and any changes therein are measured under 5-D time (thus, the basic principle of Time Error).  So, your thinking is great - I love it, but I don't believe it's completely correct.

37

Time, Space, and Dimensions / 1999 Differing From The System

« on: March 12, 2006, 08:42:37 pm »

sssssz:  

I liked a lot of what you wrote up until a certain point.  A lot of the basics in your argument about the flow of time hit right on with what I consider the flow of time to be.  As far as Lavos actually being able to affect the gate that led to 1999 A.D. so that the 4-D coordinates were staying on a fixed 4-D point instead of changing based upon Time Error, I'm still out on it - the pocket dimension that Lavos creates could have an effect on the surrounding area, including the gate that leads to a place very close to where Lavos emerges, but Time Error still does come into play but in what seems to be a restricted manner until some changes happen.  

So, let's get to what I'm having problems with:

Around the moment when Lavos ascends, time flows toward that moment, not the End of Time. For a short while, Lavos exerts a greater temporal gravity than the End of Time. Thus, Time Error, which is a special measure of time in respect of the standard flow of time (toward the End of Time) fails to work and Lavos' presence overrides standard temporal mechanics

This isn't how Time Error works.  Time Error is based upon the idea that you are holding 4-D time as a measurement of position like the first 3 dimensions, and you are using a 5-D axis as your new time axis.  So, it wouldn't really matter if 4-D time was dilated such that the gravity well of Lavos' pocket dimension caused all time to flow toward the point in 4-D time where Lavos emerges from the planet's interior now would it?  

Before Year 1999, there is no moment of being sucked into an exact temporal point. Why? Because he doesn't exist outside Year 1999. Even if Lavos has transcended time, it seems to be bound by time most of the time. Maybe he only exerts so much temporal gravity only when he is attacking a planet. Proof? The Ocean Palace Incident and Magus' summoning of Lavos in Year 600. Lavos showed up, but time flowed fine. What the hell? I believe this is because Lavos was summoned, not ascended.

This is blatantly wrong.  Lavos does exist outside of 1999 A.D.  We know this to be true because Lavos fell to the planet in 65,000,000 B.C.  Furthermore, Lavos showed up at the Ocean Palace disaster in 12,000 B.C.  of its own will - Lavos was not summoned.  In 600 A.D., it was summoned, but not in 12,000 B.C.   Also, in-game evidence tells us that Lavos reigned atop Death Peak (although it's not completely clear what "atop" means by looking at Death Peak) after it ascended to the planet's surface.  

Lavos must also have some connection to the flow of time, despite being in a pocket dimension, as we know from in-game evidence that Lavos consumes the planet's energy and assimilates DNA from every living being on the planet.    

So... From the Begining of Time till Year 1999, time passed normally as Lavos was dormant, and in Year 1999, Lavos ate time... wait, then how does future after the Day of Lavos exist? My answer: Future doesn't exist. Future has not happened yet, because time can't get there. The future the Heroes of Time and playes see are consequences prepared by time. Remember, with my stupid and unfounded pseudotheory, time is stuck at 1999. And Year 2300 is after Year 1999. This is a reason why the Heroes of Time could change the future. All they had to do is change the present event - Lavos.

Again, this is just blatantly wrong.  Time cannot be stuck at 1999 A.D. - we know this for a fact since time actually passes in 2300 A.D.  What you are proposing would not lead to a timeline but a type of time freeze similar to what we see in Chrono Cross' Dead Sea.  More evidence against your argument is that there is evidence of Lavos' activities after 1999 A.D. - namely, its spawn and its presence.  Furthermore, the fact that the Mother Brain computer talks about Lavos' children leaving one day to "seek new planets and prey."  If Lavos consumed time at that point and effectively became the endpoint of time, it would not have has spawn in 2300 A.D. nor reigned atop Death Peak.

Alright. Now, about Gates. My view on time warping: Temporal Gravity Slingshot effect. Apparently, Lavos is an integral part ot time warping. It could mean that Lavos is a necessary part. ...

While a good deal of this really does sound pretty good and I really would like to believe it, I just don't buy that Lavos has that much power that it can bend ALL of space-time at the one moment in 1999 A.D.   Sure, Lavos is damn powerful, but let's be honest with ourselves here - if Lavos was that powerful already, there would have been no purpose for Lavos to feed off the planet or create spawn, since under your theory, Lavos is so powerful that it will just devour time already from its pocket dimension in 1999 A.D.  We see in Chrono Cross that this can't possibly be the case, since Lavos as the Time Devourer is a being that requires much more energy and also a completely different dimensional location (actually being in the Darkness Beyond Time) to be able to devour time.    

So, while I am in agreement that Lavos can cause spacetime distortions, I am definitely not in agreement that Lavos has so much power that it bends the entirety of time toward it.

38

History, Locations, and Artifacts / What if FATE had succeeded in recovering the Frozen Flame?

« on: March 12, 2006, 11:36:00 am »

That does make sense - Time Error should be able to come into play here, as Time Error should be able to be demonstrated in aplace similar to the DBT - the End of Time.

39

History, Locations, and Artifacts / What if FATE had succeeded in recovering the Frozen Flame?

« on: March 11, 2006, 09:20:06 am »

 Maybe if Serge and the flame do their thing, The TD is stopped, but instead the World dies again, but this time forever since Lavos gets pulled out of the DBT and becomes whole again as if he never died, so this time around in 1999AD, no Crono and co and Lavos can finally defeat the planet.

So you're saying it's a series of loops that takes it all back to square one, except with Chronopolis getting pulled back through time and El Nido still forming.  Sounds interesting.  

2) FATE does NOT exist in Home World. Nothing.. None of it is active. The remaining records of FATE in Home World transmit something and Another World picks them up through the dimensional destortions. Otherwise Home World would be free once the Dead Sea is gone, but it's not.

I don't buy that - if the FATE from Another World can only monitor stuff going on in Home World, there should be absolutely no way for it to control what is going on in the Dead Sea.  I'm not saying that the Home World FATE can control what's going on in the rest of El Nido, just some of what happens in the Dead Sea.  

I don't think it's smart to start playing around with the Dead Sea. We know it's weird. It's meant to be that way. Zeality says Chrono Cross has no plot holes. Though it depends what you define as a plothole. I personally take it as that if something isn't explained in depth or contradicts the plot in a canonical ending of a sence or such a reason why the plot is driven, I count that too. Hence, I'd have the Dead Sea on my list. But so far CT has more plotholes, and more theories then are necessary to destroy such things as why Marle dissapeared etc etc. Tackling those first would be wiser, in my opinion

I don't believe this is a plot hole at all, on the contrary, I believe there is a good explanation for it - we just have to look for it. The evidence is there, and we can make sense of it.  That being said, I know you know that the Dead Sea is weird, and I know it's meant to be weird.  When I'm talking about it being really weird, I mean it - it's a lot more weird than implied by anyone here that I have read so far, including everything in Salt for the Dead Sea.  Does that mean it can't be answered?  No!  I believe there is a logical explanation for it.  

As far as tackling stuff in Chrono Trigger, I have tackled what I have found intereresting so far.  Now, I find this aspect of Chrono Cross interesting, so I am going to tackle it.  While having people on the site who think freely back me would be a very good thing, the way I see it, if I haven't earned their resepect with the things I have written so far, I never will get their respect.  I wrote a lot of the things I wrote on this site to build a starting reputation as a free thinker who likes to have good debates.  In all honesty, I hate having people just bandwagon onto things without thinking about it - it just isn't right.

40

History, Locations, and Artifacts / What if FATE had succeeded in recovering the Frozen Flame?

« on: March 11, 2006, 04:26:24 am »

The thing is... That future was born. It existed... Lavos reigned.. So WTF? But Crono and co changed time so it wouldn't come to pass and the newer history came to pass. Then the time crash happened. So if i'm not mistaken, the Dead Sea's future is the reflection of the future that will come to pass if Serge doesn't die before the end of the game. So it gets ruined.

I don't think that's how it works exactly....  But this brings us back to the original question I posed.  If Serge would have continued along his destiny of coming into possession of the Frozen Flame (either as himself or FATE in his body), something would have gone horribly wrong - the Dead Sea shows that Lavos would have reigned in the future, but we also know the Time Devourer would have consumed all space-time.   So, we finally come back to the initial dilemma - which would have happened, or would have both happened?  

As for Chronopolis, it was most likely merged into everything or was crushed by it. There is no Chronopolis after the Dead Sea is destroyed. And Miguel was binded to the Dead Sea by FATE. There is no Miguel in another world. FATE probably didn't need him.

And also, you have to remember what Miguel said. It's condensed into the Dead Sea. Obviously there isn't like enough space in there to fit a 40,000km world. Leene square would be put somewhere random, but maybe because the Frozen Flame is there, it got put ontop of the Tower of Geddon for whatever reason.

And yeah, the Flame kind of shows that Chronopolis was their once.

Well, since the FATE computer is still operational and has some control in the Home World Dimension, I don't think that Chronopolis was destroyed.  If anything, it may be able to disconnect itself from actual space-time unless certain safeguards are taken out of commission (power to the facility, the "fates", Lavos intervening through the Frozen Flame to pull it back through time, etc...).  I'm not 100% on it, but from what we see in the game, it seems like a logical conclusion.    

Dbouta, your entire argument is flawed in that you're trying to make the Dead Sea make sense, which is impossible. If whatever force of nature that created the Dead Sea felt like putting Leene Square with a sunset inside cloudy tower, then it'll be damned if it doesn't work.

Okay, so my argument is flawed because it's logical?  That makes absolutely no sense at all.  Seriously, the Dead Sea is really weird, but even the Dead Sea has to follow some fundamental laws.

41

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Mammon Machine in the Black Omen

« on: March 10, 2006, 02:44:50 pm »

No, she definitely reverts back.  I believe this is the quote from her after the Crono & co. fight her the second time, right before she summons Lavos:

How dare you insects come after ME!

   Oh almighty Lavos, lend me your
   power!
   
   Mwa, ha, ha...
     
   At last, Lavos awakens!
   
   Compared with him, you are like
   germs.
   But, I...I shall obtain immortality!
   
   Indulge in such regrets in the next life!

Zeal was injured from that battle because she became one with the Black Omen - so when the projection of her face and hands were damaged, so was she.

42

History, Locations, and Artifacts / What if FATE had succeeded in recovering the Frozen Flame?

« on: March 10, 2006, 02:39:15 pm »

That wouldn't make sence then since Company 2400 cannot exist, but it does so it's there.  Also, Leene Square doesn't need to be a building. Heck, the reason why they may need a portal to there is because the whole of that future was placed onto the Dead Sea and merged with it too, so that Sunset is like a vision from there or whatever.

Okay, you know something? Chrono Cross doesn't talk about Lavos. It talks about the Time Devourer. He'll devour all of time. Meaning the entire timeline goes to hell. You could have bits of whatever time you want lying around, from Johnny to effing Leene Square.

Wow, no.  This is one destroyed future.  This is not from multiple futures.  Here's the proof:

A future denied of all
   existence because of a
   change in the past...
   A future that was destroyed
   even before it was born
   rests here...condensed
   into the Dead Sea.

Company 2400 is there as well as everything else because it is from one time period - it is NOT from multiple futures.  


While Miguel does talk about his location and the Dead Sea,  

  Yes... I've been here
   in this very place...
   For 14 years...
   It wasn't like this
   when I got here, though...
   An incident that occurred
   10 years ago, transformed
   it into the Dead Sea.

you have to realize that he still thinks that he's in the Sea of Eden/Dead Sea.  The problem is, physical in-game evidence is showing us that this just doesn't add up.  Is that so hard to see?  

The more I think about it, the more I realize just how screwed up the Dead Sea is.  Physically, Chronopolis and the Leene's Square pocket dimension are not in the Dead Sea - you don't see any evidence of Chronopolis in the Dead Sea, and on top of it, Chronopolis isn't even visible in the Sea of Eden until the three "fates" are defeated.  So, while the Dead Sea exists, Chronopolis is most likely still intact and somewhat disconnected from the Dead Sea.  Since Miguel was inside Chronopolis (it is physically obvious he is not there, yet not in the Dead Sea timefreeze itself), he is still "in" the Sea of Eden/Dead Sea because he has been a prisoner of FATE, but physically, he's not in the Dead Sea.  I really wish I could explain it better - it's really confusing to me even, but this has to be the right answer - anything else is disproven by one piece of in-game evidence or another.

43

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Mammon Machine in the Black Omen

« on: March 10, 2006, 07:04:58 am »

That wasn't really a projection if she took on her new form thanks to Lavos' power.

Yeah, it was a projection.  We know it is because after Crono & co. defeat her, she reappears in her human form before summoning Lavos.  I'll try to explain my take on how it worked - Zeal's powers on her own weren't enough, nor was the Mammon Machine.  So, she decided to amplify her powers through the Black Omen, and that's where you see her face and hands when Crono & co. fight her for the second time.  So it's not a merger in a sense like the Dragon Gods merging, but it is a merger in that she combines her powers with the Black Omen and it projects her face and hands.

44

History, Locations, and Artifacts / What if FATE had succeeded in recovering the Frozen Flame?

« on: March 10, 2006, 06:56:47 am »

Umm, yes it is. Remember, it's a conglomeration. How do you expect to find a subway system inside a tower, and some kind of giant fan thing in it aswell, like your party members said = it was out of place.

I know the Tower of Geddon is a conglomeration of several buildings & domes from the ruined future.  The problem with the Leene's Square place is that
1) It's not a building.  Yes, I do believe this is significant - everything else inside the Tower of Geddon was part of a building.
2) We see a sunset in Leene's Sqare, and this somewhat confuses Serge & co. - the Dead Sea is surrounded by a huge swirl of clouds and doesn't clear up until after the Dead Sea is destroyed by FATE (see the FMV for proof if you need to).  
3) The dimension in which Leene's Square exists is unstable - a party member comments on it, so there must have been little temporal fluxes occurring that were quite noticeable for someone who probably doesn't understand the first thing about temporal stability to be able to notice it.  
4) If it really was physically in the Tower of Geddon, why would a temporal distortion be needed to enter and leave the place?  

The Tower of Geddon has parts of every timeline, it's like the middle point of the dead timeline's unification and Chronopolis.

Definitely not.  The Dead Sea is a timefreeze of one world from one destroyed future.  That's all.

45

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Mammon Machine in the Black Omen

« on: March 09, 2006, 10:25:04 pm »

Well, she's projecting herself (face and hands) through the Black Omen, so yeah, she did kinda merge with the Black Omen.