Messages

121

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

« on: December 14, 2005, 11:42:29 am »

Sentenal:

My 'evidence' was that the events are important, REGARDLESS of who the entity is. It would be important if it was the Gurus, it would be important if it was the Planet. Therefore, discard it.

It's impossible for me to discard that evidence.  You and I interpreted it differently, but it's the same evidence.  If I simply discard that, I lose my argument that there is significance to the Gurus being in the time periods they appear in.  I have also explained how it is possible that the timelines they don't reside in are still significant to them.  So you see, it's impossible for me to discard the evidence of the timelines.  The only difference is how you and I interpret it.  

But do you realize that its not possible for the Guru's to create that gate there, and change history to start their quest? Gates don't form for no reason.

Except, it could have been possible, and this is what I'm getting at with all the talk about the pendant.  The pendant at that point was not fully charged, but it was once charged with the power of Lavos, who can make gates.  The telepod provided some interraction that allowed the gate at the fairgrounds to form.  Combine that with Melchior's quote that you and I argued about earlier, and we have a possibility the Gurus at least knew what was going to happen.  And if they knew what was going to happen, that opens up for more discussion as to how involved they could have been.  

Listen, I asked a question. I asked to explain why he would still go insane, and you dodged it.

Except, I didn't dodge it, hence, my frustration and confusion at your response to my repsonse.  If you can't take the reasoning I gave as an answer to your question, then your question may not be able to be answered.  


V_Translanka:

Because I assumed that you would not be able to counter that...You're not the first person to make an Entity arguement after all (there are still nutbags at GameFAQs who still spout on about Alfador...whether they're joking or not...it's no longer funny...if it ever was...).

Next time consider the site you are on - this is supposed to be a credible Chrono series site, and if I am not mistaken, I posted in the analysis and theory forums, where serious thought is supposed to occur.  

And, as I read, you haven't. Nothing you say makes it so that it's the Gurus who are dying or reliving their memories. Thus, teh Entity...not the Gurus. So, yes, it was addressed, but there was no good supporting evidence for your Guru cause there that I read.

Yes, I have addressed this in a proper manner.  What you read, however, was not what you wanted to hear, and what you did read is that there is the chance that the speculation (which is what it was) made by Robo, Frog, etc... during the campfire scene may not have been exactly the analogies they made to try to understand the existence of some "Entity" figure that wanted them to see everything that happened and caused or guided the events of Chrono Trigger.  I provided a case where it may have appeared that this "Entity" was reliving its life, or in other words, how it could have appeared to the heroes that the planet was this "Entity", but in reality it may not have been.  What you were looking for was "The Gurus were reliving, X,Y, and Z" and that's not what I gave.  You have to be open to other possibilities - things are not always as clear-cut as they look.

Zaperking:

The Planet is almost God-like in CC.

I've played through CC a few times by now, and I never thought the planet was God-like.  If you are talking about pullling Dinopolis from another dimension to balance out Chronopolis being pulled back through time, this could be explained by Newton's Third Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  Dinopolis being pulled through from its dimension into the timeline Chronopolis got pulled back through may have been simply physics happening in a really messed up manner.  If I missed quotes from CC (other than the Dragon God saying the planet hated mankind - it could be up for debate as to how the Dragon God knew this or if it was simply expressing its own opinion and thought it was acting for the planet by wanting to wipe it clean of humans) or if Kato specifically said something, please inform me.

122

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

« on: December 13, 2005, 11:57:15 pm »

Okay, since this was a new Entity theory, I didn't bother to read the whole first page and instead skimmed over the second...From what I take, someone thinks that the Gurus are the Entity somehow???

Wow.  You didn't even bother reading the first page, which actually has the proposed theory?  How can you make any argument or conversation if you didn't even read to find out what's being talked about?  

Well, the one thing I've always had against any Entity theory that claims it's a living person is the whole fact of the reason that the idea of the Entity was brought up for in the first place...

Quote:
Robo: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not be responsible for the Gates.

Marle: What do you mean?

Robo: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all this. The different events over time that we have witnessed. It is almost as if some entity wanted to relive its past.

If you had read the first page, you would have seen that this was also addressed, although Frog's quotes from the campfire scene were used to make the argument instead of Robo's, but it is still the same argument.

123

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

« on: December 13, 2005, 11:14:02 pm »

Sentenal:

All those time periods have significance to any possible entity. It is NOT indictative to the Gurus.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.  I think we've said all that can be said in favor of each of our sides and made little progress if any.  

That Gate was not originally there. In the original timeline, Marle still had the pendant. Lucca still made the Telepod. Crono still meet Marle. And yet there was no time traveling there. What could be the only difference? The gate. The Guru's do not have the ability to create gates.

I realize there was an original timeline - I understand that.  What I am saying is that there is the possibility, based on the information we have about the Gurus, what they worked on, and what they studied, that they could have been at least partially responsible for the events that transpired in Chrono Trigger.  

.. No. I said that all those time periods are significant regardless of who the entity is. Its not indictative that the Guru's are the entity.

Except, the evidence you gave to support your conclusion did also support mine.  That was the whole reason I went and explained the reasoning behind how and why the evidence you listed does support my conclusions.  

Quote:
1) The Wings of Time was eventually completed and was able to time-travel. The mechanism for its time travel capability is unkown, but it was based upon the Guru of Reason's research.

...Which was not completed in Zeal.

And it didn't need to be completed in Zeal - I thought I made that clear.  What do you not understand about that?  

I'm sorry, but when did the pendant create a gate? I remmber the pendant reacting with the telepod to open an already existing gate, but thats it.

The existence of that gate prior to the pendant reacting with the telepod is up for debate, in my opinion.  I would support the side that says the pendant created or helped create the gate.  The pendant also helped create a gate on Death Peak in conjunction with the Time Egg.  In Chrono Cross, if I remember correctly, Kid used the pendant to call Serge across dimensions.  

What is the reason he went insane? He was teleported to a destroyed future. He was alone. The world was destroyed. He had paradice, and then was stripped from it. If he had the epoch, magically, he can now be with people he knew, or be at places that arn't as depressing. He would not have gone insane if the epoch was finished and he used it.

Really, you're losing me here.  Go back and read over what I wrote again, seriously.  What I wrote and what you are responding to are two different things.  

Elvis_Maximus:

Really, I like the theory.. but I just don't see the evidence that supports it.. then again there isn't much evidence supporting any real conclusions about the entity... so yours is as good as the next IMO ^.^

Well, I'm glad you like the theory, and the evidence that supports it is in the game itself, namely from quotes from the Gurus and actions the Guru of Reason took.  The problem, which you hit the nail on the head with, is that there isn't enough information in the game to come to a definitive conclusion about who or what the entity really is - all we can do is theorize possibilities.

124

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

« on: December 13, 2005, 06:57:14 pm »

There was an original timeline where Crono and co never time traveled. The entity supposively created the gate at Leene Square to start off their adventure. Impossible for the Gurus to do that.

Again, you're stating the obvious (the comment about the original timeline) and trying to use that for an argument - what you're saying is not going to hold up in backing up your argument.  The "entity" may have created the gate at Leene Square to start off the events, but what we do know is that it was based off of the pendant reacting with the telepod.  That was the catalyst, although the exact method of how it happened is unknown.

 

He was still working on everything when you meet him the first time.

He's working on inputing his memories into the Nu when Crono and co. first meet him - that is all that is revealed.  When exactly the Wings of Time was finished is not known.  

Like I said, its not indictive to the Gurus.
65,000,000bc- Has to do with Lavos. Nothing with Gurus.
12,000bc- Has to do with Lavos. One of the most important events in history.
600ad- Has nothing to do with Gurus, just has something to do with Magus, and Lavos.
1000ad- Has something to do with Melchior, but lets face it. It just helps out, rather than guide. Has to do with Crono, and therefore Lavos.
1999ad- Has something to do with Lavos.
2300ad- Has something to do with Belthasar, and Lavos.

Except, you just proved my point without realizing it.  65,000,000 B.C. is when Lavos fell.  The Gurus studied Lavos, and at some point they must have investigated its origins.  600 A.D. has to do with Magus, who is Janus, and Lavos.  We know that the Guru of Reason knew that Lavos was summoned by Magus in 600 A.D. - whether he also knew Magus was Janus is uncertain.  The fact that Lavos did something in 600 A.D. by being summoned is of significance to the Guru of Reason.  The rest I'm not even going to comment on, as you've pretty much proved my point that the Gurus appear within these time periods outside of 12,000 B.C.  Really, this can't be taken as just coincidence.  

I think Melchior was the most truthful of all the Gurus. He didn't buy it because of what he said. Obviously, it was just as important to Marle, more so that Melchior.

The problem here is he'll say it even if Crono tries to sell it to him without Marle around.   You were basing your argument upon Marle being there and her expressing its importance to her.  Furthermore, Melchior initially wanted to buy the pendant even when Marle was around - it wasn't until he realized it was the pendant he had made that he decided against either buying it or persuading Marle to sell it to him.  The pendant's significance to Marle is of no importance.  

The pillars of light didn't lead directly to the day where Zeal was destroyed. The bucket lead directly to the Day of Lavos.

The pillar did lead to a time almost immediately before Zeal was destroyed.  When Crono & co. reach Zeal for the first time, the Ocean Palace is nearly completed.  

The Gurus never finished their work in Zeal. Magus summoned Lavos because he was a powerful Wizard. It was via the use of Magic that they made contact with Lavos. None of this gives any of them the power to create gates.

You're right - the Gurus didn't finish their work in Zeal, but that does not change the fact that they were working on it.   It's still up for debate how Magus summoned Lavos.  I will give you that he used magic, but the question still remains as to how that magic was used to summon Lavos.   I don't believe your argument that the Zeal made contact with Lavos purely through magic.  It's not fully known just how Lavos was discovered during that time period.  There are two things you are also failing to take into account here:
1) The Wings of Time was eventually completed and was able to time-travel.  The mechanism for its time travel capability is unkown, but it was based upon the Guru of Reason's research.  
2) Lavos could create gates, and we have seen that the pendant also can  create gates or other temporal distortions.  

If he had access to the Epoch (meaning it was finished) give me a good reason why he would have still gone insane.

What you are not considering is the possibility that completing the Wings of Time was part of the plan to change the planet's future.  Had the Guru of Reason not completed the Wings of Time, or had he not decided to even work on it, he still would have gone insane in 2300 A.D.

125

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

« on: December 13, 2005, 05:38:46 pm »

But afterwards, in 600BC and 1000AD you can use it to open chest that happen to contain very useful items. And in 2400AD, you can use the pendant to open doors. Who do you think could have done that? I think someone who time travels that knows the person with the pendant will need these items to suceed in their quest would do such a thing.

While I agree that the sealed doors in the future were most likely made by the Guru of Reason, this quote won't let me agree with you about the sealed boxes found in 600 A.D. and 1000 A.D.:  

[Young Man]
   The Queen has sealed the Elemental
   Weapons in the north palace.

   You can see its entrance on the
   northern continent, but no one is
   allowed there.

 [Young Man]
   The door to the north palace is sealed
   with a mysterious energy.
   Even we, the Enlightened Ones, cannot
   open it.


What more, when Crono and co. break the seal to what is left of the North Palace in 1000 A.D., the Nu there presents them with two sealed boxes - one contains a strong elemental weapon (Swallow), and the other contains protective gear (Safe Helmet, if I remember correctly).  These two boxes are identical to the others found in 600 A.D. and 1000 A.D., and at the Truce Inn it is said that the boxes were in the family there for many generations.  What this could mean is that these boxes being scattered throughout the world were remnants of the weapons and armor sealed away by Queen Zeal, and they were recovered after the Ocean Palace disaster, although it is unknown how long after the disaster happened that these boxes were recovered.

126

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

« on: December 13, 2005, 02:40:31 am »

Sentenal:

Firstly, to say that Belthasar is the entity, he must have had to do something to start off Crono's adventure. What could he do? From Zeal, he they didn't know that Lavos would destroy their civilazation and teleport the gurus all over the place.

I don't understand where your argument is going with this at all.  You're only stating the obvious that while the Gurus were in Zeal they could not forsee the extent the Ocean Palace disaster would go to.  

In 2300, hes INSANE. He barely even finishs the Epoch in time. However, the messages he leaves in that Nu, and everything that has to do with that, tie in to the Time Egg. In that instances, he basically left behind instructions on how to use it.

By the time Crono & co. reach him he's nearly insane.  What about before then?  Also, we don't know when the Epoch was finished; all we know is that he finished it while in the post-apocalyptic future.  

On the placement of Gates... They had more to do with imporance to Lavos and the Planet than with the Guru's. The gates being where they were do not imply Belthasar being the Entity.

The gates had importance with both - I touched on that already.  The primary importance was with Lavos' relationship to the planet, but the fact that all three of the Gurus appear within these time periods (if you count the End of Time as one of these time periods) cannot be just cast aside as coincidence.

 

On Melchior's words... It was a special pendant, that he remmbered from Zeal. Thats why he wouldn't buy it.

That was my first thought as well when I saw the quote, but then I thought differently after considering it more.  If this pendant was so precious and he had no knowledge as to how it would be used in the events of Chrono Trigger, why wouldn't he have bought it?  It meant a lot to him, and he did make it, so why wouldn't he want to keep it safe and have it to remember Schala?  

Gaspar probably did make the stuctures in the end of time. Or maybe it was already there. Regardless, its not indicative that hes part of the Entity trio. The gate to 1999 was in a bucket because it led to a dangerous time.

Your argument is not convincing enough.  Technically, 12,000 B.C. was a dangerous time too, yet it had a pillar of light instead of being set aside.  Granted, the Day of Lavos was when the world was put into ruin, but Lavos also surfaced and acted similarly in 12,000 B.C.  2300 AD was also a very dangerous time - the world was in ruin and Lavos reigned atop Death Peak while producing offspring.  

Zeal's shiny area was in Magic, no space-time distortions. Even Belthasar, the only one of the three to deal with time, never finished his work while in Zeal.

While in Zeal the Guru of Time studied space-time distortions and worked on the Time Egg; the Guru of Reason worked on a Wings of Time; the Guru of Life studied Lavos.  In 600 A.D. Magus used his powers to summon Lavos.  How he did this has been speculated as Magus attempting to create a space-time distortion to enter Lavos' pocket dimension.  

Here I have listed two solid instances of space-time distortion study and one possible space-time distortion being created by someone from Zeal.  As for how the Guru of Life was able to study Lavos and how the Gurus were able to make the Mammon machine to tap power from Lavos is unknown, but if you think about it, it could have involved some knowledge of space-time distortions there too.    

But really, why would the Guru's engineer a plan that would involve one of them going insane, another living in isolation, and the third living in isolation and making weapons, a thing which he hates.

The question is, why not?  What did any of them have to lose if they did actually go through with this? The Guru of Reason would have gone insane in 2300 A.D. no matter what.  The Guru of Time would have lived in isolation anyway at the End of Time.  The Guru of Life would have lived as either a hermit or a blacksmith in 1000 A.D. anyway.  

I'm beginning to think you are misunderstanding what I was saying and where I am saying the Guru of Reason could have started such a plan.  I am not saying this could have started in 12000 B.C., although technically that is where it started because that is where the Gurus originally were from and it was from there that they were flung against their will across time.  What I was saying or hoping would be inferred was that the Guru of Reason may have used the Wings of Time in 2300 A.D. after it was completed, and things may have gone from there.  

The Guru's did play a part in wanted the defeat of Lavos. But to say they engineered it like something akin to Belthasar in CC is crazy. Really, I think your reading too much into their lines.

The plan created by Belthasar in CC was probably overly elaborate and could (and does to me) appear crazy.  Regardless, the lines I quoted from the Gurus definitely left room for thought as to why they said what they said and how Belthasar knew someone would actually come and open the sealed door in the Keeper's Dome.


Tonjevic:

think, being the Guru of reason, he reasoned that somebody with a pendant would come because, at that point, the Zealians were the only people with the ability to create any time travel devices. And that only the members of the royal family would have done it because they still have thier magic.

While you have a point, the only factor that doesn't really add up here is how someone from Zeal would have known to look for him that far in the future.  Also, it must be realized that while the Guru of Reason was still in Zeal, nobody had achieved time travel yet; he and the Guru of Time were  nearing completion of research on it.

127

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / A New "Entity" Theory In Progress

« on: December 13, 2005, 01:32:46 am »

I have been reading the Entity theory posed by Zeality, et al, and while I do agree it is a very plausible theory, I would like to propose another possibility that I don't feel has been adequately explored.  This possibility is based off of quotes from Chrono Trigger as well as the driving force behind Chrono Cross.  I am proposing that the "Entity" could be the Gurus of Life, Reason, and Time.  

I came to this possibility after playing Chrono Cross and considering that the Guru of Reason planned out (most of) the events that happened in Chrono Cross.  He even developed a machine which could move freely through time.    As I considered this, I first thought that the Guru of Reason himself may have been the driving force behind Chrono Trigger for a few reasons:

1) He did complete the Epoch, which meant he could have used it before he decided to store it.  
2) He made sealed doors which he knew would eventually be opened as given by this quote:
"To those who opened the door... I am Belthasar, the Guru of Reason.  I once lived in the kingdom of Zeal."

This quote is very important because it implies that he had hoped someone would open the door and had planned accordingly.  This could imply that he was expecting someone to eventually come with the ability to open the sealed door.  For that to happen, they must have been able to  recognize how to open the door, as we know that "dynamite won't even budge it".

From there, I considered the possibility that the Guru of Reason had planned out Chrono Trigger as well as Chrono Cross.  What is interesting is the time periods the gates are placed in - 1000 A.D., the time in which the Guru of Life was sent, 600 A.D., the time period in which Magus (Janus) summons Lavos and as a consequence he and his castle disappear, 2300 A.D., the timeline in which the Guru of Reason resides, 65,000,000 B.C., when Lavos crashes onto the planet, and 12,000 B.C., where it all began for the Gurus and Janus.  Each timeline represents significance to the Gurus, especially the Guru of Reason.  

The more I thought about 1000 A.D., however, the more I was led to reconsider that the Guru of Reason was not the only one who could have been involved, if the Gurus were involved at all.  This quote from the Guru of Life in particular led me to believe so: "Oh, my!  It's...the pendant...!  Er, sorry, but I can't buy that!  It's...far too special!  Keep it safe!"  Why would he say this?  One possibility, and the only conclusion I have been able to reach, is that he had some knowledge of what would eventually transpire.

The End of Time is also very interesting, as the Guru of Time resides there.  Furthermore, there is the possibility that he constructed the structure of the End of Time as Crono and co. see it, since it is implied that there was physically nothing there (except the prospect of Spekkio) before he arrived.  Furthermore, there is a gate in a bucket leading to the Day of Lavos there that appears to have been constructed.  The question  that I posed in my mind, then, was why would it not be a pillar of light like all the other gates?  This gate was special in that it was not meant to be accessed immediately.  Because of this, I was further led to consider the idea that the Guru of Time could have been involved in such a plan as well, especially since he serves as a guide throughout Chrono Trigger.          

Since it is known that the Zeal culture was able to create and study space-time distortions, it is not unreasonable to consider the possibilty that the Gurus could have planned the formation of the gates and the guiding of the events of Crono Trigger.

Some arguments against such a theory also need to be addressed.  

The first, and most compelling argument against the notion that the Gurus were involved in the planning of the events of Chrono Trigger is the gate which appears during the campfire scene.   How did that gate just suddenly form?

Under this proposed theory, there is a possible answer.  The pendant the Gurus made holds considerable power and demonstrated the power to make gates on two other occassions.  The first occassion was the begging of the game when a portal opened when the pendant was exposed to another space-time distortion.  The other time was on Death Peak when the Time Egg was used with the pendant.  It must also be taken into consideration that the pendant was made of dreamstone, as was the Masamune.  The Masamune did react to Frog's emotions on two occasions during Chrono Trigger, and during Chrono Cross it was full of negative emotions/energy.  This gives credit to the possibility that the pendant too could react to emotion.  During the campfire scene, the pendant was in the possession of the heroes, and it was also fully charged with the energy of Lavos, a being which had the power to manipulate space-time.    The pendant itself could have reacted to Lucca's emotions creating a temporary gate.  


Another argument is that at the end of Chrono Trigger, Lucca comments that the "Entity" is at rest.   This supports the planet-entity theory better, does it not?  

I hate to answer questions with questions, but this case it is necessary.  How do we know that Lucca truly knew what she said was true?  Also, could the Gurus not also have been relieved and at rest that their plan worked?  

A third argument against this theory is that Frog's quotes from the camfire scene, " 'Tis true that mortals do relive their most profound memories before death claimeth them," and "Lavos playeth an integral role in the fortunes of this Entity..." imply that the planet is the "Entity", not the Gurus.

One possible answer is that the Gurus had no choice but to tailor the events they could plan, or even just tailor the gates to main points in the history between Lavos and the planet.  After all, the whole point would be to save the planet from the destruction Lavos would bring upon it.  Also, Lavos played a major role in the lives of each of the Gurus, and at least two of the three Gurus did study Lavos in detail.  



I am interested in hearing feedback and other arguments, both in favor of and against this proposed theory.

128

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Did crono die when porre attacked

« on: December 13, 2005, 12:34:25 am »

As an addition, since the dimensions all end up merging (according to the end of CC as I understand it); since they're most likely alive in the other dimension (and unless the merging of the dimensions killed EVERYONE from the other dimensions) then they would be alive in the resulting dimension anyway.

This is a point from Chrono Cross that I have always found confusing.  There are times I wonder if Kato purposely left the ending this way so that it would be left up to the player to decide what really happened for himself.  One thing that should be taken into consideration is when the time split happened in relation to Lynx's activities on the Zenan mainland.  Although the topic is about Crono and Marle and their state of life after Porre overthrew Guardia, one thing that also needs to be taken into consideration is Lynx's role with Porre as well.  That could lead to some insight as to what happens after the dimensions are re-merged.  


 

Well, the sword may have been corrupted for a long time. It may have just been that enough negative energy and a dark possessed soul did not enter it ever before. The main things that probably stopped Frog from going wild was his oath to restore honor. But his whole situation seems like revenge, so the sword obviousally channeled that energy.

I dunno if it was Crono, any possibility is open, but whoever did it should be outside of time.

You'll have to define "long time".   What discredits the whole idea that the Masamune was tainted during Chrono Trigger is that:
1) Crono, Marle, Lucca, and Robo had it in their possession before Frog ever claimed ownership of it.
2) Cyrus briefly possessed it.  Furthermore, quotes from Frog's flashback indicate that Cyrus was sane while he used the Masamune.  
3) Masa and Mune were conscious within the sword in Chrono Trigger, that is certain.  It is not so certain in Chrono Cross due to these quotes from after you "free" the Masamune:

Radius:
   I no longer sense the slightest
   bit of malice from the Masamune.
   There is no more fear of
   succumbing to its enmity.
   
Mune:
   Huaaah...
   You awake, Masa?
 
Masa:
   Yeah...
   But looking back...
   I think we've done
   something terrible.

Mune:
   Heh heh...
   No one will know if
   we don't tell.
   
Doreen:
   HEY!
   What were you
   two up to!?

Masa:
   Yikes!
   It's Doreen!
   
Mune:
   N-Nothing!
   We don't remember a thing!
   
Doreen:
   Hmmm, I see...
   Well, just to make sure
   you're not up to any mischief...
   I'm coming along.


In Crono Cross Masa and Mune may have been lying dormant within the sword, and it is implied that they had no control over what happened to the sword.  This is very different from Chrono Trigger, where they were conscious within the sword.  


I do agree, however, that who or what tainted the Masamune could have been from outside of time.  The question of who or what can't really be answered, and hopefully the next game in the series will answer it.

If people wish to speculate based on known information, it should be taken into consideration that the Masamune did disappear during 1005 A.D.  From there, it was moved to El Nido.  Based on known information, there are few possible candidates, if any, that could have tainted the sword or caused its disappearance.  Furthermore, in 1005 A.D. the sword was still considered legendary, not infamous or demonic.  Lynx did not exist yet, nor did the time split.  The FATE computer, then, really had no reason to intervent on the mainland as of yet.  It also appears unlikely that Magus would have been the one who tainted the Masamune.  His life aim was always to exact revenge upon Lavos, and after that was completed, his only care was to find Schala (or was so implied).  Furthermore, Lucca's letter discredits any other speculation of Magus' tainting of the Masamune, as she wrote that letter after the sword disappeared.