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Messages - ShoeMagus

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Oh, I just brought up the Frozen Flame as an example of something new that Cross introduced that was explained enough so that it did not cause weird questions for the first game.

I think the debate about whether the four elements were planet or universal is largely semantic. The Zealians said "planet's" powers, but Spekkio said that all things are based on the four elements (meaning the entirety of the universe). It leads me to think that the Zeal assertion that they were the Planet's powers was more of a generic "Nature" statement. Though, it may have also been a kind of differentiation from the power of Lavos, who came from outer space and whose power seemed to be different from the four elements (though if Spekkio's assertion is accepted at face value, then Lavos would still in some ways be governed by the four elements).

What I meant before was that the CC elements are forces specific to the planet, though not necessarily of the universe at large. Its the only explanation that makes sense to me.

Yes, I think in essence that the magic that human beings developed was linked to Lavos. Initially because of the effect that Lavos had on human evolution via the Frozen Flame, and later on after the Zealians discovered him sleeping under the ocean. The forces they originally called on were of course cosmic and did not have a source in Lavos, but the capacity to use magic came from Lavos.

Okay if I disregard the ideas and themes of Chrono Cross. You're suggesting that the whole thing Kato did with Elements could have been done using Zeal as the basis instead of the Reptites. That I can understand. But your idea still isn't fleshed out. Are you suggesting a system more to do with innate magic? Or at leas the innate magic system? Or like the CC Elements? I mean, if you haven't thought our specifics, then that's fine. I'm just curious as to what you envision this to be.

I think Cross is generally well put together. It does invent a totally different system of magic, but also gives very good reasons for why its there and why you didn't see it in Chrono Trigger. A good deal of the new content in Chrono Cross is explainable through the Dinopolis/Chronopolis conflict. It leaves most of the established continuity alone (rather than retconning). I like that. I like when stories build on established ideas rather than throwing them out. The biggest change that I think Chrono Cross makes to the past is the introduction of the Frozen Flame. And because that was presumably in the Mammon Machine, it is understandable that we didn't see that in Chrono Trigger.

Granted that there was in all likelihood a lot of things in Zeal that we didn't see. "Elements" in the statement you keep referring to of course literally refers to the Innate system (Light, dark, fire, water) that Spekkio teaches about. Are you suggesting that Cross could have been based on the Innate system rather than the Dragonian Elements? Or are you suggesting that somehow that line could refer to something else altogether that was never encountered?

Interestingly, the Compendium's Retranslation[/urll] says, "Zeal has prospered this much through the use of a new energy far more powerful than the planet's powers of sky, dark, fire, and water." So logically anything you're basing on this line would have to be based on these four rather than some other expanded system. The language of the script, going on precedence, also refers back to the Trigger system.

Examining this line, then of course Crono need not have encountered whatever you're trying to get at. But still, the main power sources and artifacts of Zeal were stored in the Sun Palace and Northern Palaces respectively. Still I'd imagine that there would be at least some small encounter, if you are using Zeal as the basis. I mean, they "encountered" the Frozen Flame in the form of the Mammon Machine.

You bring up some good points. Namely in that how in the hell did Belthesar know or guess that the Planet would pull Dinopolis from its dimension, prompting the existence of the Dragonians on El Nido and subsequently the Chrono Cross to come into existence.

And if anybody can clarify that particular point, it would be of great help. Otherwise it is just a big gaping plot hole.


Yes Azala did use some range of psychic powers, possibly as a way on the part of the developers to showcase her advanced intellect. However, it also makes sense that the Reptites developed the technology of the elements. The emphasis is that the Reptites, in the timeline without Lavos, are the right and natural dominant species of the planet. I think a major theme in Chrono Cross is the dichotomy between the natural, Planet-centered way of the Reptites/Dragonians (that is preserved in Marbule) and the mechanized, Lavos-influenced way of life of the human beings. It makes total sense for them to develop the CC elements as they are more directly attuned to the natural world, whereas the humans (especially the Zealians) bear the taint of Lavos; a more interesting question would be what would've happened if Lavos hadn't fallen but the humans weren't driven into extinction by the Reptites).

Despite all the aspects of Cross not necessarily having to exist already in Trigger (or how would you make a sequel at all) you would still have to explain about the North Palace and the lack of elements. It would be a weird plot hole. "Oh hey look at all this technology that the Zealians developed that they hid away in the North Palace and that you never saw when you opened it up." No, we don't have to know about every single technological development in Trigger for them to make sense to appear in subsequent sequels. But, upon discovering Lavos, Queen Zeal ordered that things associated with the elements be locked away in the North Palace. You can't change the fact that you guy there in Trigger and don't find anything resembling the CC elements.

It would work possibly with a little more build up, but I just don't see how it would work in the context of Trigger. Not by reinterpreting one line.

Actually, I'm saying both.  Story wise, I think things work much better to use connecting dialogue from Trigger to re-develop the elements used in Cross, which then offers better backstory to Trigger (and pre-Zeal history) rather than come up with something entirely different. 

Now your statements saying how this doesn't work are rather incorrect.  The key point being you're making the misconception that the information I say that could be used in Cross can't happen because it doesn't exist in it's entirety in Trigger at all.  The first problem with that, is that Cross wasn't intended to be Trigger 2 while it was being developed, so of course the entirety of details used in Cross aren't going to exist in Trigger.  To further reiterate that, can you claim the reverse (ie, the "consistent" answers to the questions you pose about the elements) for the reptites? 

As far as I've seen in the research I've done for the posts I make in this forum, plus the times I've played through both games, I haven't seen any instance of such information in Trigger to support their evolutionary development of 'elements' for Cross from the reptites.  What makes my suggestion work is that it does indeed have a direct connection to Trigger in its possibility (ie, the human race prior to the development of the Mammon Machine's link to Lavos) could have used technology reminiscent of the 'elements' used for Cross because its stated in Zeal that their "new power source" "surpasses that of the elements "  which from a dialogue standpoint indicates that if they didn't at least used that power themselves, they are at least familiar with it.  If they're familiar with it, then the whole entity splices time and space together to offset Chronopolis with a time line that just so happens to have the reptites survive without Lavos landing and magically develop this convenient plot element and game play mechanic.   Oh, and all of which, the Guru who set this up knew it would be that exact timeline merge to allow his convoluted megalomaniac plan to work.   

Additionally, you bear the wrong notion that every single technological advancement had to somehow be present in what little of Zeal Chrono and Co. saw.  That's not true, and it's not necessary to the story, so of course that isn't there.  Almost any magnitude of things could've been said about what is or isn't developed from Zeal (and it's Guru's) because the entirety of the events of Cross are the machinations of just ONE of those self same Gurus.  So here, you're reasoning contradicts itself.  Heck, despite having a flying craft the explore the world of Trigger, and what exploration is done in Cross, has been stated to still not be the entirety of that world.

Furthmore, I don't think that it characteristically makes more sense for the Reptite evolution to develop 'elements' in the first place because Azala was a psychic.  He wasn't some druid, shaman, whatever that manifested some stronger connection to the planet, he simply had mind powers.  From that trait it seems more reasonable, and consistent, to me, that Azala's decedents would further their development of psychic energy and technology   perhaps culminating in a utopia offsetting the magical pinnacle that is Zeal.

And one last nail to hammer here: From you
More importantly, why would the Zealians need them? The Zealians prided themselves on being innate magicians. Sure, they created strong "magical" items like the Swallow or the Guardian Helm or even the Tabs, but they don't need an item that can create a fiery explosion because, presumably, they can do that perfectly fine on their own

So why would Dalton bother making weapons on the Black Bird?  Why create golems?  Why mount lasers on the epoch if he has enough power to throw a few fireballs and mop up almost any that would stand against him?  Lasers, which coincidentally enough, turned the Black Bird into a fiery explosion.  Such a weird conundrum from what you tell me about the lazy inhabitants of Zeal that would just as soon as sleep their days away when a select few develop technology that doesn't require active use of magic to utilize.

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Re: The Nature of Shadow
« on: July 24, 2010, 03:44:57 pm »
It's called shadow for a reason. Shadows cannot exist without light to give them form. If it were the opposite, it would be called darkness. Both lightning and fire give off light, which can combine with water to create a "shorter" shadow or water and the other element to create a "longer" shadow due to more light being brought in.

It appears only to be "Shadow" in the North American translation. The Compendium's Retranslation says (in the scene where Spekkio meets Magus for the first time):

"The incredibly rare "Dark" power......!  I've got nothing to teach him."

So I don't think the semantics matter much as the effects the forces themselves create.

Ah I see your point better now. Yes I think you're right. Much as I love it, there ought to be a sense of closure.

Though I'd argue against a "happy" ending. If people don't die in stories like this, then I don't buy into them as well.

But yes, if Crono had never decided to attempt to defeat Lavos, the Time Devourer would not exist. Well, probably wouldn't exist, as I think its generally thought that in the original timeline, Schala used the pendant's power to remove herself and Queen Zeal from the Ocean Palace. Because of Crono's presence, the Time Devourer is created and the Black Omen rises.


#8: Give us the chance for a happy ending
Thanks to Chrono Cross, things didn't end well for the Chrono Trigger crew.  But who says that future has been set in stone?  Does the future refuse to change?  Maybe something will happen that will make it possible to save everyone and reunite Serge and Kid.  Don't they deserve it?

No, I'd say that thanks to the Chrono Trigger crew, things didn't end well. They made the choice to time travel and change the future. The things that destroy and/or scatter Crono, Marle, and Lucca are all results of their time traveling.

I think Lucca realizes most the consequences of their actions, if her letter to Kid is any indication. Do they "deserve" a happy ending? Well, they defeated Lavos. But they also created the Time Devourer.

As much as I'd like to know what happened, if they pulled some crap, "Everybody lived happily ever after", it would be a detriment to the series.

If Kato was brainstorming as far back as 1996, official plans got underway in 98, and it was released officially in Japan in 99. That's quite a long time to develop ideas.

I guess that can be quite a bit of time to develop ideas, but how much of it was effective, and committed brainstormed?   Several game projects (not just rpgs) will commit at least half of that time, increase the amount of people in the thinking-loop, (utilizing a lot more man hours) and more importantly, collaboration of those ideas.

The point with me bringing up Zealean tech was to demonstrate the terrible redundancy and unnecessary convolution that is the Cross elements back story and the settings the game takes place.  The vests are an example of tech in the current trigger story that could be the possible product of non-Lavos based elemental manipulation, or as said in Zeal: "Zeal's advances steam from a new energy source, its power surpasses that of the elements[/i]  which, when also coupled up with the comment about the North Palace being sealed leads me to conclude that Zealean society, prior to the discovery of Lavos, knew about and could use the "elemental" tech that the Draconians "developed", making the events that transpire to create the elemental system of Chrono Cross with the draconian time-line merge and whatnot, completely unnecessary a product of Kato overlooking what was already there because what he was brainstorming: " my Chrono" (emphasis added)

I further alluded to this in my comments about the wind, being acknowledged, but not usable, though thanks to what you pointed out, there is effects of its use in even Trigger.  I'd like to say it's exclusion as a separate elemental property was for simplification in the elemental breakdown and tech combinations allotted to the characters something Cross shows more of the opposite with its increase in usable elements, but decrease in combinations and consistency in their properties, but that is more of a reverse bias to try to elevate Trigger to make Cross look bad.

Now, some of my sentiments are probably further misunderstanding in the cultural differences in East/West, but when you compare what is said from the creators of Cross, such as Tanaka and Kato, and what occurs with Cross (and what continues to change with Trigger in each rerelease) there is very large difference, coming off to me as further demonstration of a lack of effective brainstorming, collaboration and effective idea implementation. 

Now the story significance of what the elements of CC due for the story are alright, but the application of getting those applied to that game world and its characters comes off a second-hand gameplay gimmick designed to carry on some of the familiarity and customization of other games among a host of other factors which gives me the impression that the time the dev team wasted on trying to work in over 60 characters in the game and its story is made up by gleaning  from FF7 and Xenogears instead of Trigger.

Hard to see what your argument is here.You're either saying that Cross elements actually existed in Zeal or that it would have made better story sense.

Neither argument really works though, the least reason being that no one had Elements (meaning devices that created magical effects) before the whole Chronopolis/Dinopolis thing. That's kind of a big deal. I mean, why didn't Crono and Co discovery any at the Northern  Palace when they opened it up? If you're making a consistent story, you have to be able to answer questions like that.

More importantly, why would the Zealians need them? The Zealians prided themselves on being innate magicians. Sure, they created strong "magical" items like the Swallow or the Guardian Helm or even the Tabs, but they don't need an item that can create a fiery explosion because, presumably, they can do that perfectly fine on their own. In fact, they can do bigger and better things if they comment that Crono and Co's magic (which was all about explosions) was primitive. It doesn't make any sense.

It makes better sense for the Reptites, who weren't innately able to use these cosmic forces, to develop technology to do something like that, especially more geared toward the forces immediately present on the planet. I mean, if you're willing to open up the dimensional idea, then it becomes a lot more easier to bring in something new than to retcon old bits of the story and reinterpret them.

The advent of Lavos in Zeal is an interesting topic in its own right. Harvesting Lavos' energy, its as if they discovered (in their minds at least) a new element (outside of the Shadow/lightning/fire/water system) altogether. A new energy force capable of anything (from time manipulation to imparting immortality). So they wanted to depend on and use this new power. Some preliminary testing (and just being around it), made the "Lavos Element" seem to be without limits whereas Zeal may have slowly been discovering limits of their past sources of power. It seemed like the next great leap forth. So yes, neglecting the old powers would have occurred.

Though I think the Queen was more concerned with keeping powerful artifacts like the Sun Stone and weapons of the North Palace out of other people's hands. But that's not particularly vital to this argument. The point is, I don't see how it could've somehow been CC elements.

Anyway, yeah they were probably taking inspiration from other sources (particularly FFVII materia). Customization is increasingly a big deal. But I think it works. I don't see areas where it was poorly thought out.

Mitsuda's music has formed such an integral part of the existing Chrono games - of setting a mood, creating emotional resonance - that I would argue he is just as essential a component in the series as Kato. Making a Chrono game without Mitsuda's music would be like making a Star Wars film without a John Williams score. The music has become so deeply integrated into the identity of the franchise that it just wouldn't feel right. I would even go on to argue that the visual direction of Yasuyuki Honne is just as essential, or at least almost as essential, in creating the unique "feeling" of the Chrono games.

BTW, @SilentMartyr, I would like to try some WRPGs (I'm embarrassed to admit I've barely played any) and am wondering what the best game would be to start with? I keep getting told I need to play Fallout 3. To be honest, by biggest misgiving about getting a WRPG is that I tend to avoid extremely long games; there are exceedingly few console or PC titles that can hold my interest for more than 40 hours, max, and I don't like to start playing games that I'll never end up finishing. I wish more WRPGs would be released for handheld formats, which I think is the ideal home for the RPG genre in general.

A very good point. Overall, they shouldn't try it unless they can get the right people for it. I think, in this respect, the gaming industry is run a little better than Hollywood (where they churn out movies regardless of their ability to make them).

Incidentally, Fallout, though interesting, didn't grab me like Elder Scrolls IV did. That in particular is a fine RPG. Its long, and honestly, I never actually beat the "main quest" because I had too much fun doing everything else (though I go back and play it every couple of months and probably will eventually). 

I'll probably get booed off the board for this, but I don't even require Mitsuda. As long as the story lives up to what Trigger and Cross have done.

You must hate music.

Sourkeys mistaken comment about putting Chrono in space gave me an idea for a new game. Make a Chrono MMO where you hunt Lavos throughout the galaxy. Instead of the natural western MMO style of create your own character there could be just a plethora of teammates like in Cross, but with more character development. The updates could involve new planets that are invaded by Lavos Spawn. If obsidian made that game I would be first in line.

I love music. I love Mitsuda's music. But the way some people talk on here, if Mitsuda didn't do the project, people act like it wouldn't be a Chrono game. I disagree. I think its the story that would have to make it a Chrono game.

Or else we have the "s. Darko" of Chrono games and nobody wants that. Music and the look of something great, stylistically similar, but overall disappointing.

Seeing other worlds that Lavos has ruined is interesting. I mean, being a part of the Chrono series, it would raise the inevitable question: Would it be wrong to go back and stop Lavos earlier in time, the least of the consequences on Earth being the negation of the human timeline and the creation of the Reptite Dimension? What other repercussions then exist?

Another interesting problem lies in Lavos himself. His homeworld, the reason why he hurled through space and into Earth to destroy it. I mean (and granted this is a viewpoint informed primarily by a real life understanding of the universe), Lavos would have had to come a long way to Earth. Scientists don't know of any other planets that support life. Granted, in CC Starky confirms alien life. But how far away was it? Was Lavos drifting through the universe at random, seeking out life? It seems insane to even consider that he hit the planet by accident.

Honestly, I don't think I'd change a thing. I think Trigger is pretty much perfect (or was until they added the stupid Lost Sanctum!).

Maybe an Ayla mini-quest. But honestly, I didn't find her or her timeline particularly interesting. She's my least favorite, least used character. So I can live without that.

Initially, I was disappointed in Cross because it never says where Magus is or what he's doing, but it seems to have all of these other characters that aren't interesting. Alternatively, the characters create a fuller world. You interact with these people, meet them, interest them, go on quests, even if they're small ones. Finding all of the skeleton for instance. You find this character and get a glimpse into his life. It creates a world full of real relationships.

I'll probably get booed off the board for this, but I don't even require Mitsuda. As long as the story lives up to what Trigger and Cross have done.

I mean, anything else is really just fan fiction. Fan fiction is a fine medium, but if some company is going to put out a Chrono game, it has got to go along with the main story developers. Or it becomes a hit-or-miss situation like Final Fantasy.

They're not saying, "Put Chrono Trigger in space." They're saying that Star Wars is a mash up of science fiction and fantasy (fantasy in space!) and that its similar to the way that Chrono Trigger has both elements of a fantasy story (magic, demons, swords), and sci-fi (time/dimensional travel, alien entities, robots).

I'm not so bothered by this. My big concern would be pulling in the original developers, but I don't think Kato ever had any objection to a sequel or doing a sequel. Mitsuda had expressed interest already. Not sure on Honne's thoughts, but I like to think no one would want to miss out.

I am curious as to what "western elements" they'd want to bring to the game. It sounds daunting, but its not necessarily a bad thing. Granted I disagree with applying the whole "Create-a-Character" concept to the Chrono series. Then again, it wouldn't be entirely wrong considering that Chrono is characterized by the silent protagonist with no personality anyway.

So overall, I think this is good news.

I didn't think you were. No worries. Magic tends to be one of my favorite topics of CT and CC so I was replying to what appeared to be an old topic anyway. I have had to learn to deal with that some people have lives outside of the internet.

Its kind of hard to gauge what influenced Kato and the other creators. Particularly in this instance. I have less knowledge on Japanese myth than Greco-Roman, so I can't be sure. But I thought it was important because there was mythological precedence for the association between Lightning and wind. Even if it wasn't specifically Greece that was influencing this particular aspect, it could be that his aspect of Wind is paralleled in the Japanese system. But I wouldn't know where to begin to dig for that.

Anyway, there had to be some sane reason to have "Wind" at Zeal, but to retain a lightning animation. It could be your Chinese pattern, or it could be the relationship wind has to lightning.

Now. Wiki says:

"Square began planning Chrono Cross immediately after the release of Xenogears  in 1998. Chrono Trigger's scenario director Masato Kato had brainstormed ideas for a sequel as early as 1996, following the release of Radical Dreamers.[24]  Square's managers selected a team, appointed Hiromichi Tanaka producer, and asked Kato to direct and develop a new Chrono game in the spirit of Radical Dreamers."

If Kato was brainstorming as far back as 1996, official plans got underway in 98, and it was released officially in Japan in 99. That's quite a long time to develop ideas. Now, it may have been a little rushed once things got underway officially, but that was a lot of time to brainstorm. I don't think it was a quick ploy to give all the characters magic, not when it makes so much story sense.

You cited Zeal's "elemental technology", but that was based on the Zealian (CT) sense of elements, not CC's. The vests, though called by color, all adhered to the CT system. There was no yellow vest (in CT) because the Zealians did not use that system. They were probably totally unaware of it. Because they had the capacity to utilize the four fundamental forces, all of their magic (including any elemental technology) is based on that.

The CC Elements are Dragonian, developing in completely different circumstances. Based on Dragonian understanding of the Planet. So that's what the CC elements relate to and are a part of. The Planet and the Planet's Dream. Instead of calling on the fundamental forces, they appear to manipulate real phenomena. They're related in some way to the four fundamental forces, but those things are related to everything. I think its also important that the CC elements are all dichotomous. Black and White, Red and Blue, Green and Yellow. CT elements lack this, the forces affecting each other and being part of each other as a whole (Shadow). The CC elements are in some conflict with each other.

I mentioned "there's no yellow plate in CT." There isn't. There is one in CC. And this is also important. Because you receive the plates for the CC elements from the Dragon Gods. The Dragons themselves are interesting, because in them is personified the split of the CC elements. I think ultimately CC elements are deeply related to the Dragon God. The dear Compendium itself says, "The Dragon God is the culmination of Dragonian  science, a machine built to control nature itself by manipulating derivate forces of the physical world." The Dragon God manipulated the physical world, based on the Dragonian understanding. It was split into these six pieces. The entry on the Dragon God even implies that the elements are based on the split, but I'm not so sure. I imagine the Dragonians differentiated these before and that it was this understanding that dictated they be split into six pieces. It keeps their power in balance.

I find the idea of "balance" important as well. The Chrono Cross itself, a "Seventh" Element, is based on dichotomy as well (Fear and Love, two different dimensions) but balanced and resolved. Its power to unite the two dimensions is based on the power of the six elements (and thus the Dragonians). On a minor note about balance, the Einlanzer (which seems to be Dragonian) balances out the power of the Masamune. Again, Cross is all about dichotomy and balance (which, due to their nature, the CT elements didn't fit right).

The point of all of this is that the CC Elements are intricate parts of the story. Though, like many parts of Chrono Cross, we're not sure how it relates directly to Chrono Trigger, it isn't just a nonsensical gameplay element.

Of course, there's the tricky question of CC Techs. What their nature is, how they affect the elemental grid.

But that's more than I can think about at the moment.

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Chronopolis when go past
« on: June 29, 2010, 02:46:10 pm »
FATE created Lynx. The Frozen Flame healed Serge, but corrupted the mind of Serge's father, Wazuki. FATE then had to circumvent Prometheus who locked FATE away from the Frozen Flame when Serge became the arbiter. FATE choose Wazuki and reshaped him and his mind for this purpose.

Fan Art / Re: LAVOS?! (Not mine)
« on: June 25, 2010, 01:49:32 am »

I love how everyone's (two people) going on about how they don't call Lavos a porcupine, instead of how awesome that picture is.

Granted, when I first saw his sprite erupt from the ground, I thought "sea urchin," but that's probably because I have a paralyzing fear of sea urchins.

I thought, "Shit, that's the goddamn boss? Thought I just had to fight some evil wizard or something.

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