Messages

421

Chrono Series Tarot Card Project / Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?

« on: January 11, 2011, 01:30:47 pm »

Bekkler's idea makes a lot of sense and is quite a sane way of approaching a big undertaking. My one concern would be that, ideally, the deck would be a cohesive whole, and taking it one card at a time would make that a bit hard. For instance, one might chose Guardia for the Emperor and later on discover they think he'd make a better Hanged Man, or something.

Maybe we could have a thread or two a week for each card, a discussion on it where people can put forth their suggestions and the reasons why and discuss the rest of the deck, and then a vote at the end of the week when the new card discussion begins? We could put the card's definition and a list of characters up at the top for easy reference, and people could have at it. Later on, if they felt like it, people could change their minds.

This would also encourage lots of Chrono analysis, which I personally love.

@Syna: I get what you mean, (no offense) but for a person with not much experience with Tarot, calling them a fool would instinctively make them not download the sheet in the first place.   I'm just saying it can be misinterpreted as that. We'll have to put a vote for the fool too I suppose.

Right, but though I don't want to give this a Super Serious turn or anything -- this is fanart for goodnessakes-- I would (personally) like to see this be a legitimate tarot deck with carefully-thought-out choices that are appropriate to both Chrono and the Tarot. That's why I'd like to see the card meaning incorporated into the survey-- because people who aren't yet exposed to Tarot will see a commonly-misinterpreted card like the Fool or Death and judge it on face value, which is not really what the card is about. The Tarot is a very deep story, and I think people may find it interesting to learn about the deck of cards while they look at pretty fanart.

We can always put the meaning in the captioning for the art. I'm not suggesting that my pick for the Fool was the best there ever was, but I do think that the symbolism and resonances in the Tarot cards themselves are important.

But in the end this is for creativity and fun, and I don't want to curb anyone's enthusiasm or anything. This is just my take!

422

Chrono Series Tarot Card Project / Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?

« on: January 10, 2011, 10:03:51 pm »

We could set up a Google docs survey.

We could put descriptions of the meanings of each major arcana in front of each box and let people write in what they want-- that way people aren't restricted to a long list of characters, and may come up with a creative idea out of the blue.

That would be LONG, but this is a pretty big project that's being proposed, so...

423

Chrono Series Tarot Card Project / Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?

« on: January 10, 2011, 11:45:04 am »

P.S.: Wouldn't the "fool" be Bekkler or Chancellor?

OK, I'm going to take this opportunity to rationalize why I chose the player as the fool.

The Fool is the major player in the Tarot and is not to be taken for a literal fool. He's described as meeting/experiencing the Major Arcana in what's called the "Fool's Journey." There is a sense of innocence and naivete about him -- he's about to fall off a freakin' cliff, for christsakes -- but it's more a sense of embarking on an adventure and boundless possiblities than anything else. Like all cards, there are positive and negative aspects.

The Fool can be the querent, person who is experiencing the Tarot -- i.e., asking the question-- but not always. Sometimes, that is reserved for the Magician, if the querent feels especially capable of shaping his own reality, which is why I thought Crono was best suited for him.

Crono ends up being extraordinarily powerful by the end, and as the instrument of the player's Will, I chose the Magician for him. (Again, don't look at the literal title. the Magician has mastery of the world and the power to create it, that's where his title comes from. An excellent description can be found here: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/magician.shtml Aeclectic has good descriptions of all the cards, so they're worth a look.)

424

Chrono Series Tarot Card Project / Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?

« on: January 09, 2011, 11:39:42 pm »

Yeah, a full-on deck would be awesome, though a massive, massive undertaking! I actually had the thought of the numbered suit cards being events, and the ace cards being the most important items. Maybe this:

Ace of Swords- Masamune/Red Knife
Ace of Wands- Gate Key
Ace of Cups- Pendant
Ace of Pentacles- Dreamstone

These are just ideas-- I am trying to chose what's most appropriate right off the bat, but codifying each of the suits and more of the major arcana may be a good idea (though may come at the expense of the appropriateness of the choices.)

425

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?

« on: January 09, 2011, 08:01:50 pm »

I've actually already begun that, though it's still in its infancy.

Whoa, that's an incredibly ambitious project! And one that would really add to the community-- some of the theories here are easily as good as anything Kato could come up with. (I'll give it a read!)

I feel that it's easy to get stuck in the "concretist fallacy" when dealing with a beloved series. Like religious fundamentalists who pay attention to the literal meaning of a sacred text in all cases, you forget that ideally, these works inspire you. They're not to be slavishly adhered to. So, while messing with canon should be approached with appropriate trepidation, I am very much for it.

I may yet do my own re-imagining, simply because I've had ideas kicking around about it for years and I feel a desire of my own to create something that expresses something about my relationship with the Crono series. Mine would be strictly CC, though.

426

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Is Magus really all that cool?

« on: January 09, 2011, 07:52:28 pm »

Whoa, someone dared question one of the community's cornerstones! I understand the trepidation, but I guess my response would be this: 1) he's an archetype that is very appealing for a lot of reasons; 2) He is used so damn beautifully in the game.

Magus is cut straight from the Byronic cloth: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ByronicHero And I can see how that gets old, but the archetype is undeniably appealing. I love the almost humorous exaggeratedness of Magus: he doesn't bother to run because he's too freakin' good for the ground. He's a rockstar, with all the awesome-bordering-on-silliness that entails.

That's why the Byronic hero is appealing -- the sheer titanicness of him/her. Magus is a human who arrogantly dares to stand up to a force far greater than himself because that force took away something he loved. He is the product of the apex of humanity, Zeal Kingdom, who witnessed its fall and was changed by it, and now he follows no compass but his own. The intensity of the Byronic hero, his "posture" or "stance," is just compelling in and of itself. It's hard to rationalize except to say that it's an archetype for a reason.

I honestly don't see Magus as too remorseful. Judging by Ozzie and his exploits, I feel that the war with Guardia was going on longer than Magus had been in the Middle Ages-- his just gave Ozzie the advantage the Mystics needed to put the humans in a very difficult position. Chrono Cross influenced my view on the war, actually: the humans in that game are portrayed pretty negatively -- to an exaggerated extent-- so I feel like human prejudice must have been behind at least some of the conflict. And Cyrus, well-- I mean, it wasn't murder, really. Cyrus was going to try to kill Magus, wasn't he? Cyrus was surely noble, but in a duel, death is a little different, morally speaking. I see Magus as more of a Chaotic Neutral type. He seems dark and evil because the rest of the characters are very moral, happy-go-lucky types, but he's not really.

That's not to say Magus didn't do repulsive things, and that doesn't mean he doesn't change for the better. We discussed this in the Death Peak and Magus thread, but Magus shows signs of development from the North Cape onward that suggest he actually formed something akin to friendships with the others. In the least, he is the way that the game hammers home the point that you Cannot Do It Alone. As powerful as Magus is, he needs to join forces to win against Lavos.

427

Chrono Series Tarot Card Project / Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?

« on: January 09, 2011, 07:32:38 pm »

Ohh, YOU READ MY MIND. I am a tarot nerd.

Here are my picks if a contrast with Mr Bekkler's would help:

The Fool- The Player. I vote a SNES controller. I have reasons for this that I can enumerate.
The Magician- Crono
The High Priestess- Schala
The Empress- Queen Leene
The Emperor- King Guardia
The Hierophant- Belthasar
The Lovers- Crono & Marle, of course
The Chariot- Epoch
Strength- Ayla
The Hermit- Gaspar
Wheel of Fortune- Time Gate
Justice- Glenn (with Cyrus, perhaps)
The Hanged Man- Robo
Death- The Chrono Trigger
Temperance- Melchior
The Devil- Magus
The Tower- The Ocean Palace/Mammon Machine/Queen Zeal
The Star- Marle
The Moon- The Black Dream  
The Sun- Lucca
Judgement- Lavos
The World- The Planet/Nu

And also: minor arcana suits, because I am a nerd!

King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords- Mother Brain
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands- Azala
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Atropos

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles- Crono's Mom
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Tata

King of Cups- Kino
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Toma
Page of Cups- Frog King

I have a loose rationale for all of these, if you need some justification.

428

General Discussion / Re: The Thread for Writers

« on: January 06, 2011, 08:38:39 pm »

I am really just astounded at the depth and breadth of this thread. Lord J, I'm with you (and your friend) on the classic literature front completely-- that attitude was often missing from my English department's creative writers, who would say things like, "Emily Bronte was a great writer and all, but there are way too many erroneous details in Wuthering Heights. It's so boring." (Which is, augh. Such a lamentable misunderstanding of the concept of differing aesthetic paradigms. And that's nothing to say of how many people completely misread Wuthering Heights. Bella and Edward's favorite book my ass.)

And I agree as well on the "surprising the audience" front. I'm pretty sick, as a general rule, of clever gimmicks in stories. It's understandable that these gimmicks have developed because of the surplus of media we're deluged with, but so much of it is style over substance. Game stories are especially guilty of this, but postmodernism (for its strengths) kind of encourages it everywhere.

That's something I loved about the film Black Swan, actually. Superficially the movie is full of cliches and has the sort of premise that audiences love these days - OMG IS IT A HALLUCINATION OR IS IT REAL!??!?!?! (to which I respond, "who the hell cares?!") - but the movie resists the urge to be "original" for originality's own sake or to delve into questions that are only meaningful as thriller material and tells a story that is stubbornly psychodramatic and parable-esque. I'm glad that such movies have a place, any kind of place, in contemporary stories.

429

Chrono Compendium Discussion / Re: Thinking of giving away my forum account

« on: January 05, 2011, 04:56:36 pm »

Oh, absolutely not! Please, don't take what I said that way! This name is your name. "Syna" suits me, it's a name I've had for a long time.  

I really hope what I said didn't disturb you. We should talk about it more in private if you'd like, but that really wasn't my intention at all.

430

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?

« on: January 05, 2011, 01:00:37 pm »

I agree with you completely, Lennis, even with your CT criticisms... My main objection to the tragedy of CC is that it undermines the hopefulness of CT, rather than a dislike for tragedy for its own sake. I think tragedy can be wonderful... and it's even very appropriate that CC brings out some of the darkness of CT's implications. I'd be fine with it being a darker game... I just wish that in this case, it didn't come at the expense of that rare pure joy in CT, you know? Because it really seems to go out of its way to undercut what CT has to say.

I respect that Kato wanted CC to be its own standalone game, but he linked the stories up inextricably. CC simply makes no sense outside of CT, and like a rebellious kid, it resists CT's influence when it does not need to.

This is especially tragic to me because CC can be an incredibly fascinating and nuanced game in its own right. It has some truly heartstopping moments-- the Temporal Vortex, Nadia's Bell, the ending...

Chrono isn't about time-travel or dimension-hopping.  It is about the human spirit rising up to take command of its own destiny.

Absolutely.

I've actually tossed around the idea of writing a CC "reimagining" for a long time. This is inspiring me to actually do it, though I'd prefer a remake too!

431

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?

« on: December 27, 2010, 05:43:31 pm »

My take is that Kato is interested in darkness. His games are typically quite dark, and 12,000 BC - for which Kato is solely responsible - is the darkest part of CT. It is also the most enduring and brilliant part of Chrono Trigger. But it is largely so, I believe, because it is the darkest and most dramatic part of a story which is otherwise very hopeful and optimistic. The contributions of the other members of the team complemented 12,000 BC and allowed it to be as impacting as it was.

In short, in CC, Kato was director of his own project and had to share less of the spotlight with others; and so he had to edit himself less, which can be fatal for a storyteller, no matter how capable they are. It was, imho, such a bad thing because although 12,000 BC is so meaningful and amazing and is, in fact, my favorite part of any video game ever, IT IS NOT ALL THERE IS TO CT.

(Also, judging by CC, Kato either lost everything he knew about how to plot a video game scenario effectively or didn't have one of the CT guys helping him. It is ironic to me that Chrono Trigger has such a beautiful, simple, elegant, symmetrical plot while the plot of its sequel is an unholy mess. But that's neither here nor there...)

Personally, I will always admire Kato for his contribution to CT and for some truly brilliant moments in CC, but I don't buy that whole growing up and taking things seriously means darkness meme. To me, so much of what's stayed with me about CT was how sweet and poignant it is, how much hope it offers. As I grow older, it means even more than it used to.

(I don't mean to be terribly down on CC. I love Kato, I love Schala, and moments of CC are just incredible, like the ending. But I do believe he dropped the ball in a big way with this sequel.)

432

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?

« on: December 27, 2010, 05:16:27 pm »

Hey idioticidioms, I assume you were responding to me. First of all, I want to say that you and I actually agree! Second, I hope to clarify a few things:

You left out the fact that He has an almost photographic memory.

This may be your personal canon, but do you have any evidence for it? Could you elucidate? Of course he remembers the events of the past; what I was referring to is the fact he knew as Janus that somebody he met for the first time in his life was  going to die, and his general talk about the black wind. (Of course, said person *didn't* die, but I don't think prophesy is that straightforward in CT!)

I would not have put it past Magus to have concluded, through what he had let slip and through knowing of Team Crono's goals, that they would be right behind him, at most, by a couple of days.

Of course; Frog thought the same thing in 65 mil. There was one big gate, and it's natural to assume they may end up in the same place.

I do think you're dead on with his cunning against Lavos and his feelings for Schala, but I don't think that his feelings for Schala held too much of an impact on his decision to spare Team Crono.

Ahh, OK. Well, my point was basically about his feelings for Schala, and yours seems to be more about how he learns to cooperate with the group. At any rate, I certainly agree with his mischevious/cruel side, which he shows during the fight with Cyrus and at Ozzie's Fort; but that's is not how it played out dramatically in this instance. For me, this is a big Magus Character Development Moment which illustrates what I've been saying. Magus is imho clearly quite ready to kill them; he says, "You'll have to simply... disappear!" Schala then pleads with him, and his former self says "Stop!", which is what keeps him from doing it. I don't think mischief had anything to do with his decision to spare them. Defeating Lavos is WAY too important to Magus to risk Crono's meddling. The characters even remark that the Prophet could have killed them and didn't when they are sent back through the gate; they are baffled by it; they wonder about it. To me, that is a strong indicator that killing them was his first inclination.

This scene could actually be interpreted to support what some have said: that Magus experiences his change from a revenge-focused mindset at this point. I do think that he recognizes that he has gone too far; Janus telling him to stop is certainly a poignant moment that suggests at that. But none of this indicates that Schala was a secondary concern before his arrival at Zeal, or that she had strayed from his thoughts. There is, contrariwise, evidence that she HAS been important to him the whole time.

Though, with his logic, he should have known that it was due to them that he was even able to see Schala again, but I don't think he truly realizes this until Lavos defeats him before obliterating the Crono clone.

I'm not sure I see the evidence for this. It is technically due to them he can see her, but it's due to unintentional bumbling on their part, and I'm sure he attributes it to such. Magus is not one to give fools credit.

But regardless, that's not important, and this is: I COMPLETELY AGREE that Magus goes through a change of character. I didn't mean to suggest he didn't. My contention was that I don't think it's due to rediscovering his feelings for Schala, as some people were suggesting. I think they had those in mind all the time, even if he got to such a twisted place that he was willing to do things that would have upset her in order to achieve his goal. It's not just revenge. Janus hates Lavos -- "hate" is an unbelievable understatement -- but his hate for Lavos and desire to see Schala free are one and the same.

Take into consideration the DS ending, where his concern is not to kill the remnant of Lavos but to get Schala to wake up. Again, revenge is undeniably important to him, but Schala is moreso; he's just less inclined to talk about the person he lost than his hatred because he is so withdrawn. He carries the amulet she gave him with her; EVERY TIME he is around her when she is suffering he responds. There are thematic reasons I think Schala is wrapped up in the revenge obsession, too, but I'll get to them in a minute.

So, his change of character is not that he got back in touch with his softie side and love for Schala, but rather, is exactly what you describe here:

After his defeat to Lavos in the Ocean Palace, he had to consider his goal as impossible to reach on his own. As a person who has prided himself on overcoming every single boundary in his way to his goals, I think he contemplated giving up, which is where you find him after losing Crono. Standing on a ledge, overlooking the Ocean, realizing that all of his plans had been for naught.

Absolutely. Very well put. I agree with the paragraphs after, as well. Wonderful analysis. He learns the value of companionship. Magus, as capable and ridiculously badass as he is, CANNOT do it alone, just as Crono couldn't, and this is one of the strongest and most reinforced themes of CD. So yeah, we agree!

The thematic reason I alluded to is the whole Magus/Frog story arc in light of Crono's death. Loss and the place of revenge is THE theme of that arc, IMHO. In my personal little universe, Glenn realizes a few things at the North Cape: 1) that Magus is not entirely evil, and does, in fact, know what it's like to lose somebody as important to him as Cyrus was to Glenn; and 2) that to kill Magus would perpetuate a meaningless cycle of revenge. Magus was transformed by what happened to him and callous to all else, leading partially to the death of Cyrus, which, if Frog were to fight him, could lead to Magus' own death. At that moment, Frog has lost both of his best friends, but (if you chose not to fight Magus) is able to transcend that cycle. Ironically, Magus killed one of those friends but reveals how to resurrect the other, which works out especially well if Magus is spared. Goddamn does CT have an awesome story.

433

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?

« on: November 30, 2010, 01:06:10 am »

Mortalshuffle, I know i am late, but you are WIN. That was an awesome post. I love the wormhole idea.

I agree with what's been said, the TB is the reason I think Magus didn't save her, at that point. Nobody would be there to teleport them out of the Palace, etc., etc. Magus is thinking long-term here, and he knows Lavos needs to die.

I can see why people would think that revenge on Lavos comes first, but you must remember, Magus keeps his cards very close to his chest. In fact, Magus denies the existence of said cards, you idiot. Every encounter he has with Schala as the Prophet and as his younger self points to his care for his sister. To me, his moment of acquiescence when Schala asks him to spare the time travelers is Magus' equivalent of choked-up teary-eyed angstbucketness. I mean, come on, he so rarely gives people the time of day, much less credit, much less the ability to influence his actions in any way, shape or form. He had the opportunity to off those meddlesome kids and he didn't take it because of her.

I can certainly see an interpretation where he has a change of heart - that's a pleasingly dramatic development - but I don't see any direct evidence for that, per se. If you feel he did, it's more of a personal thing, in other words. We don't really know that much about Magus' life pre encounter with the team other than he had Nagi making up songs about his badassery. My conception of Magus is as an extremely ostentatious individual, and personally, I don't think Schala was ever far from his thoughts. Think of the DS ending: he erases his goddamn memories after lamenting that his life has no meaning if he can't save Schala. Albeit in his classically stubborn, pissy, indignant way, but that's quite a statement.

Does this mean he doesn't want revenge for revenge's sake? Hell no. He is dead devoted to destroying Lavos, and how. I just think Schala is ultimately more important than that, and given how cognizant Magus is, I strongly think he knows that the two goals are inexorably intertwined. Magus would have known that Schala and Lavos are connected, as is canon in the DS version and CC; he was close to his sister and saw the rise of the Mammon Machine.

Getting into my personal canon here, but: I think of Magus as a supremely intuitive person. He senses the Black Wind and the presence of death. This doesn't mean he's a prophet -- note that Crono doesn't actually die, of course -- but he does know shit he shouldn't know; he is preternaturally aware. In my head, if Schala were dead, he would be know, but she is not. The reality is far worse, and he can guess at that. After all, look what happened to his mother.

434

Kajar Laboratories / Request - screenshot of Zeal falling?

« on: July 31, 2006, 06:23:38 pm »

So I'm making Chrono Trigger FST - FSTs being "fandom soundtrack," essentially a mix CD for some fandom or element within it (they're usually posted on lj; examples of fst communities are fanmix.livejournal.com and fst.livejournal.com). For the CD sleeves, I want to use a picture of Zeal falling into the ocean. I've looked all over, and I can't find a screenshot - does anyone have one on hand, or know where to get one?

Thanks!

435

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Of Mystics and Demi-humans

« on: August 14, 2005, 02:30:41 pm »

I always thought of "Mystics" as a catch-all term for sentient non-humans (of obviously varying intelligence). Clearly there are many races represented in Magus' army, and there's no reason to think that humans and dragonians are the only species that achieved sentience through evolution. Given that the monsters seem to use magic, and Flea, and Magus, I doubt magic was the mystery to them that it was to the humans of that era, hence the name. I'm pretty sure demi-humans could be included in the 'Mystic' umbrella - wouldn't surprise me one bit, and it adds, as I've said before, an interesting and rather sardonic twist to Magus' curse on Frog. (Imagine that - he not only changes Glenn into a non-human, he changes him into his -enemy-. Admittedly, however, I just like the poetic irony in that.)

It would make sense, given the context of the game, for the demi-humans to be more closely allied with the draconians, given that the draconians were all about the Planet and nature and stuff whereas humans were (according to CC...) Lavos-influenced.