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16
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 02:11:12 pm »
I think I would have to agree with Mr. bekkler on this. For some reason the game never mentions Magus' disappointment or specific weapon again, which i feel is rather suspisious. But perhaps I will read through the literal translation of the Japanese version one day and see if i can't figure out if something was possible mistranslated.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 02:07:49 pm »
Hmmm. Maybe it's the same weapon! which was actually my first thought, but sadly i'm very certain that doesn't make sense. But anyways the dreamreaper was only added to the ds version, and prior to that all of magus' weapons have visible blades unlike the weapon he attacks lavos with. so your argument doesn't really translate that well i feel, because that would mean they should have used his standard weapon (scythe looking deal) instead of the staff looking deal.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« on: April 05, 2012, 11:38:47 am »
What happened to magus in the original timeline? In a previous topic what magus' fate ending up being before Crono&co came into the picture keeps coming up so I thought I would make it, it's own topic. So far it's either thought that magus was successful in summoning lavos and was either destroyed by Lavos or was teleported much like Crono&co after the battle with magus. It could also be that Frog sought Magus out and killed him. If you will remember one of the endings had frog killing Magus on his own, but this was already with a tampered timeline.
So, I personally believe that instead of dying to lavos, which seems to be the most common belief, is that magus was actually teleported to a different timeline possibly back to 12,000 bc. I figure why would Lavos kill him this time instead of teleporting him like the other time. But one also might think magus was unable to completely summon him because of the interference so some sort of temporal anomaly resulted. Since Crono&co did not run in a make a muk of things, he may have been able to summon him properly and was then promptly eaten. Any other theory's and especially evidence to what happened to Magus would be a great help!
So, I personally believe that instead of dying to lavos, which seems to be the most common belief, is that magus was actually teleported to a different timeline possibly back to 12,000 bc. I figure why would Lavos kill him this time instead of teleporting him like the other time. But one also might think magus was unable to completely summon him because of the interference so some sort of temporal anomaly resulted. Since Crono&co did not run in a make a muk of things, he may have been able to summon him properly and was then promptly eaten. Any other theory's and especially evidence to what happened to Magus would be a great help!
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 11:19:06 am »
I found this clip to watch that shows the red staff ***SPOILLERS DON"T WATCH THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T BEATEN CHRONO TRIGGER*** but I don't know why you would be on this forum if you haven't. Anyways note the red staff around 6:30-6:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeKkuyjILls&feature=fvwrel The guy even mentions the problem of never addressing why magus thought the staff would have an effect also that it may be dreamstone.
I wouldn't say its obvious... I can't really remember my early game npc dialog regarding the mayhaps of magus though. But I believe that some people comment on him just disappearing, but I could be making that up. One would think that if Frog killed magus people would know about it and not wonder about his death. Also, summoning lavos isn't really a subtle feat normally his m-o is bursting through the earths crust and lighting everything on fire. Their isn't really any evidence of lavos, a giant creature, coming out of the ground and bringing hells lava with him. If anyone has some direct quotes from towns people or from the mystics in their village that suggest that lavos just disappeared without a trace that would be great.
I wouldn't say its obvious... I can't really remember my early game npc dialog regarding the mayhaps of magus though. But I believe that some people comment on him just disappearing, but I could be making that up. One would think that if Frog killed magus people would know about it and not wonder about his death. Also, summoning lavos isn't really a subtle feat normally his m-o is bursting through the earths crust and lighting everything on fire. Their isn't really any evidence of lavos, a giant creature, coming out of the ground and bringing hells lava with him. If anyone has some direct quotes from towns people or from the mystics in their village that suggest that lavos just disappeared without a trace that would be great.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 04:59:16 am »
Do you mean how did crono and co get melchoir to fix the masamune in 1000ad? Or how did frog fix the masamune in the alternate timeline? The first one is obviously they went back in time to 65 million bc and grabbed the dreamstone from ayla. As far as frog getting it in the alternate timeline (if he even did) that's probably a conversation for a new topic entirely. But that ending may happen after you restore the masamune but before you beat magus, so the answer would be crono and co again. Which if thats true then that timeline would have been changed from the original before crono even met frog. If thats the case then whether frog killed him or he summoned lavos and got disappeared in some fashion by lavos who knows.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 02:48:57 am »
Actually, I believe that it is frog who kills him in the time line uninterrupted by crono and co. In one of the endings it shows frog going through magus' castle and then attacking him and possibly killing him I can't quite remember all the details I haven't got that ending for a couple of years. I would tend to agree with you about the staff too. Melchoir made it sound impossible to finding dreamstone in 1000 ad so one might think that the same went for 600 ad. So I dont think magus could have gathered the dreamstone, unless he crafted it as the profit when he was teleported back to zeal. Although the masamune did have detrimental effects to magus' power, i wouldn't think dreamstones presence would. I think there is a difference between being weak to something ripping threw your flesh and holding something made of dreamstone.
I also agree that if the mystics were some form of experiments/mutants from zeal that it would be a very good reason for magus' understanding of lavos, but alas as far as i know their is very little evidence that they are from zeal.
Interesting though I will have to play through that ending again to see what actually happens between frog and magus.
I also agree that if the mystics were some form of experiments/mutants from zeal that it would be a very good reason for magus' understanding of lavos, but alas as far as i know their is very little evidence that they are from zeal.
Interesting though I will have to play through that ending again to see what actually happens between frog and magus.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 12:01:56 am »
How are you sure the staff that magus used is dreamstone? being a red staff may be an indication, but other than that i don't know if their is any evidence, or even any mention of the staff. What does magus' status as a magician have to do with interpreting the effectiveness of a possible dreamstone staff?
Also, what part of my question did you think was ill posed? I merely want to know where magus acquired the knowledge to summon lavos and why he thought an attack would be effective.
Also, what part of my question did you think was ill posed? I merely want to know where magus acquired the knowledge to summon lavos and why he thought an attack would be effective.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 04, 2012, 03:40:53 pm »
Well, If my memory serves me correctly, Melchoir uses the logic that the mammon machine could be destroyed by the ruby knife because both were made of dreamstone. Since Lavos isn't the mammon machine, the only connection I see is that it could harvest lavos's energy. And I'm a little confused on why you keep bringing up the red rock? Your talking about dreamstone right? At what point did magus use dreamstone?
Also Magus going down an anti-crono path? Could you provide your analysis of this anti-crono characterization and how magus fits this archetype. And on an anti-path wouldn't magus have to find it out on his own (being told vs not being told). Assuming things (in my opinion) is a bad way to interpret plot as their could very well be evidence that we could use in its stead (assuming things means you made them up, evidence actually will support an idea). Metaphors aside I know the plot to chrono trigger pretty well, so instead of telling me its to complicated for me to understand, you could just post a well thought out explanation of your ideas on the topic.
Also Magus going down an anti-crono path? Could you provide your analysis of this anti-crono characterization and how magus fits this archetype. And on an anti-path wouldn't magus have to find it out on his own (being told vs not being told). Assuming things (in my opinion) is a bad way to interpret plot as their could very well be evidence that we could use in its stead (assuming things means you made them up, evidence actually will support an idea). Metaphors aside I know the plot to chrono trigger pretty well, so instead of telling me its to complicated for me to understand, you could just post a well thought out explanation of your ideas on the topic.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 03, 2012, 03:00:34 am »
I suppose it would make sense that Janus was tutored, But I dont think we are exactly sure that magus attacked lavos with dream stone. I suppose i felt Janus to young to have been started some form of education. Also, his general waywardness (he just seemed to run around the palace without any responsibilities) would indicate that he never really had to be anywhere for any sort of education. But it was revealed by I think melchoir (I can't remember though if it was him or a nu or someone else) So that would make sense that melchoir was involved to some extent with Janus. Would melchoir have taught Janus that dream stone would drain lavos' or tell any thing to Janus about lavos? I guess it had never occurred to me but I feel that Magus gathered this information after he got warped.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: March 30, 2012, 12:34:52 pm »
I certainly agree that magic (in Chrono Trigger) has some sort of systematic nature. I garner that info from the magic laboratories like enhasa and kajar in zeal. But humans have learned about black holes by "encountering" them albeit by giant radars or what not, we had some means of measuring them. Humans didn't just think up the idea of black holes we saw something strange and decided "hey lets measure that." I dont know how closely scientific discovery relates to magical discovery, but if they are alike magus would have to sense lavos in some fashion.
Also, I wasn't aware mystics had a great deal of ancient knowledge. I was under the assumption they were chumps until magus rallied and organized them. I believe ozzie (assumable when Janus gets ported to about 580ish a.d. the big green jerk that finds him is ozzie) and the mystics were mostly uncivilized until then which would be a good reason for them to just be hanging out in the woods. If you know something about the mystics that I don't please share it.
Lastly, my lore of Chrono Cross is a bit shaky since i have only beat it like twice. But what happened to the frozen flame? as far as i can remember i believe it was discovered sometime before antiquity and possibly brought to zeal. after lavos destroyed the place I presume it was lost until Bethasar came about it? anywho, yeah if you know something about the mystics past, prior to 600 ad that i seem to be missing please fill me in.
Also, I wasn't aware mystics had a great deal of ancient knowledge. I was under the assumption they were chumps until magus rallied and organized them. I believe ozzie (assumable when Janus gets ported to about 580ish a.d. the big green jerk that finds him is ozzie) and the mystics were mostly uncivilized until then which would be a good reason for them to just be hanging out in the woods. If you know something about the mystics that I don't please share it.
Lastly, my lore of Chrono Cross is a bit shaky since i have only beat it like twice. But what happened to the frozen flame? as far as i can remember i believe it was discovered sometime before antiquity and possibly brought to zeal. after lavos destroyed the place I presume it was lost until Bethasar came about it? anywho, yeah if you know something about the mystics past, prior to 600 ad that i seem to be missing please fill me in.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: March 30, 2012, 05:06:08 am »
It seems that magus some how acquired knowledge about lavos. Their was the incident with his red staff where he had expected to injure him with some specific attack. Also, their was his knowledge of how to "summon" Lavos. If you remember at the end of you first battle he tells you he was only summoning him. How does magus know how to summon him? why does magus think a seemingly insignificant attack should hurt him? As far as I can remember magus' only interaction with lavos was the brief moment of running to the bridge of the ocean palace and then quickly being sucked to 600 a.d. During which lavos wasn't really even their. So did magus get information by some other means about Lavos?
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Magic, Elements, and Technology / Magus' red staff
« on: March 30, 2012, 04:58:39 am »
As many of you may know during the first battle with lavos, magus tears of his cloak, unsheathes a person-ish sized red staff, strikes lavos with it, and then marvels at its failure. My wonder is why would magus expect it to work? Is it possible that this red staff was made from dream stone? That is my only conclusion, otherwise I am not quite sure why he assumed hitting a giant creature like lavos with a red staff would cause a significant amount of damage.
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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: How did lavos absorb DNA?
« on: March 30, 2012, 04:48:56 am »
lol, em waves. lavos, the large scale MRI. but seriously thought, I do actually like the EM wave theory. It may very well be possible that lavos is able to discern certain facts about dna strands by techniques that arn't largely different than modern spectroscopy. If you are familiar with how Carbon 13 and hydrogen 1 spectroscopy works, maybe lavos is using the planet as a giant magnet to separate magnetic resonances of certain molecules. A far out theory, but possibly a better theory than magic (however spectroscopy is never mentioned in chrono trigger where as magic is referenced one or twice).
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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« on: March 20, 2012, 05:30:54 am »
Just because an organism like lavos mass kills other organisms doesnt mean that it is evil. Infact, one might profess that evilness is not an unique quality of the universe but merely a human invented definition. Also, one wouldn't consider the mass genocide of mosquitoes by the human race which is committed every spring to be evil. Lavos' relationship might be just that to humans. saying it is evil, in my opinion, is a silly thing to say. Lets assume lavos is intelligent, it may just be in his best interest to severally cripple the human race for some advantageous reason, and not for malice or opposition to moral ideals or whatever it is that evil is.
on the basis that he is intelligent I believe their is more evidence for it than against it. So I would have to side with idea that he is intelligent. I mean for one, he was absorbing the DNA of several races who seemed to have some semblance of thought for the last like 65+ million years or so. second, the quote previously posted adds some evidence to the possiblity of him having intelligence. Plus in all of the encounters with lavos i receive the feeling that he is indeed acting thoughtfully (although this is little evidence as my thoughts have little to do with empirical evidence). Also his biological structure supports advanced central nervous system species i.e. he has a cephalocaudal design. This is a fancy word biologists use to describe an organism (like a human) with a head down design. From the final fight one can discern a large portion of his base anatomy.
anyways it is a little weird for a parasite to wipe out its host organism, being as that is where the parasite acquires nutrition. So, I would have to say it was mostly because of a different reason he wiped the planet out. Lavos doesn't fit into darwins survival of the fittest design obviously, since he evolves during his life as apposed to a species evolving through reproduction. So... maybe his new DNA for some reason interfered with a parasites natural process of only minorly effecting its host. I always thought possibly a dead planet may have been a more ideal place to make lavos spawns so that could be another reason for the destruction. But, their is little support for that and is merely (as far as i know) speculation. But, I am in general support for the theory's of lavos being intelligence and that he surfaced for some particular thoughtful reason.
on the basis that he is intelligent I believe their is more evidence for it than against it. So I would have to side with idea that he is intelligent. I mean for one, he was absorbing the DNA of several races who seemed to have some semblance of thought for the last like 65+ million years or so. second, the quote previously posted adds some evidence to the possiblity of him having intelligence. Plus in all of the encounters with lavos i receive the feeling that he is indeed acting thoughtfully (although this is little evidence as my thoughts have little to do with empirical evidence). Also his biological structure supports advanced central nervous system species i.e. he has a cephalocaudal design. This is a fancy word biologists use to describe an organism (like a human) with a head down design. From the final fight one can discern a large portion of his base anatomy.
anyways it is a little weird for a parasite to wipe out its host organism, being as that is where the parasite acquires nutrition. So, I would have to say it was mostly because of a different reason he wiped the planet out. Lavos doesn't fit into darwins survival of the fittest design obviously, since he evolves during his life as apposed to a species evolving through reproduction. So... maybe his new DNA for some reason interfered with a parasites natural process of only minorly effecting its host. I always thought possibly a dead planet may have been a more ideal place to make lavos spawns so that could be another reason for the destruction. But, their is little support for that and is merely (as far as i know) speculation. But, I am in general support for the theory's of lavos being intelligence and that he surfaced for some particular thoughtful reason.
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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Theory on Time Devourer
« on: March 18, 2012, 06:51:14 am »
well as far as self-realization goes, I believe it was definitely conscious of itself. This is a term psychologists like to refer to as meta-cognition, being an advanced species, I think it is a fair assessment to assume it is conscious of itself. As far as being emotionless, that is also a stretch. I think their is a decent chance that lavos had emotion before Schala. Without any direct evidence of emotion, the evidence that lavos is an advanced species would support the idea of emotion. Second, your statment their "filled with the hatred and sadness of lavos" kinda implies that he at least feels hatred and sadness. But, I do agree devoid of a worlds worth of resources, the absorption of a entire Schala would make sense since he would have nothing else to concentrate his "absorption powers" on.